I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[nsxguy]

This sounds a bit like the (other) tempest in a teapot, "Don't Touch My Clubs" thread. LOL

 

Sorry if I missed it but the original post about leaving the flag in doesn't sound all that "intimidating" to me and if I didn't want to do it I probably wouldn't have phrased it quite the same as Sawgrass did.

 

Then again, I don't know the "tone" in which it was said nor do I recall the tone of Sawgrass' response being explained either. Frankly, being a "leave it in" guy I wouldn't have had any problem with it BUT, during the round, if I cared, I would have it pulled (or pull it myself) under the same 2 conditions I do now and if they didn't like it, too bad - it's a rule of golf.

 

[nsxguy]

 

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

 

Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

 

As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[dpb5031]

Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30G938

[HatsForBats]

> @nsxguy said:

>

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

>

> Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

>

> As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

 

Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> >

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

> >

> > Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

> >

> > As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

 

I'll ponder why you feel lucky to play only with people who choose to be loose about playing by the rules, but I have my secret theory.

 

I'm happy to play with anybody who plays reasonably quickly and is respectful of those around them.

[Roadking2003]

> @HatsForBats said:

> Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

 

Most amateurs, except for tournaments, don't play 100% by the rules. Most of us don't putt everything out and I have never seen anybody walk back to the tee after unexpectedly losing a ball.

[nsxguy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> >

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

> >

> > Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

> >

> > As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

 

Totally get that but most golfers I am aware of, especially those that belong to CLUBS, modify the Rules as permitted by the Rules, as in approved LOCAL Rules. If there IS such a local rule that allows you to modify the rule that gives a player a choice of leaving it in or taking it out I apologize in advance.

 

Further, not that it matters to you personally, but if you're a USGA member club I imagine they would take a dim view of your making such a rule change.

[HatsForBats]

Oh, I'm pretty sure your pondering lasted all of about 2 seconds and I'm not phased by your 'secret theory'. I feel lucky not to play around the player that makes it tedious to deal with a game time decision on the very rare occasion that something like this particular situation would occur (first 'flag in always' game under those conditions). Make a reasonably quick decision and get on with the round. The particulars and ways to deal with it in the future can be discussed in the bar afterwards and have even spilled over to email and texts. Like I said, good group.

 

I am happy to play with anybody and on occasion even if they aren't playing by the USGA rules and I am. As long as we can agree on our own rules for their play and the player isn't tedious to be around I am game. In my experience what you would deem the sinners are much more fun than the saints.

 

Most of the sinners I have met still want to play by a set of rules but they may not necessarily match up with the USGA's rules. For example the 2019 optional O/B rule as **only 1 stroke** penalty which one of my leagues has been using for the past 5+ years and will continue to use this year. Most of them will continue to post scores to the GHIN system using their modified rule and if I use the new rule I will add the extra stroke to my posting score (with ESC). Blasphemy, I know. Fine by me as they are fun to be around. Why would I upset their apple cart when they are so obviously enjoying it the way they are playing it? They don't want the player who is wound so tight they could split an atom between their posterior cheeks.

 

I get my fill of everyone playing 100% by the USGA rules during the yearly Golf Association events where I represent my home club. They can be enjoyable too but are not in the same class as the other rounds IMO. As long as the rules are defined and agreed upon before the rounds start in those other rounds then it's Golf On. If something needs to be decided mid round let's make it quick and get on with it. Plenty of time to discuss it in more detail afterwards and there is not enough money changing hands to fret about it too long. The guy who would make a thing of it the whole round would be disrespectful IMO. Afterwards it will be open for discussion.

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> They don't want the player who is wound so tight they could split an atom between their posterior cheeks.

>

I am amused to note that some people who pressure others to avoid the rules of golf think that it's the rules-abider who's "wound tight."

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > >

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

> > >

> > > Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

> > >

> > > As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > >

> >

> > Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

>

> Totally get that but most golfers I am aware of, especially those that belong to CLUBS, modify the Rules as permitted by the Rules, as in approved LOCAL Rules. If there IS such a local rule that allows you to modify the rule that gives a player a choice of leaving it in or taking it out I apologize in advance.

>

> Further, not that it matters to you personally, but if you're a USGA member club I imagine they would take a dim view of your making such a rule change.

 

I don't see it the same. First I don't think the **agreement** beforehand is against the rule as written. Secondly a player could choose to go against their agreement but then would **just** be disqualified from the 'regular guys' event, not sponsored by the club, which the USGA has no say in. They could continue their round and post just like the players who decided to stick to their agreement and leave the pin in the whole way.

 

The club is a USGA member club. If people are so worried about it then I would suggest they contact the USGA about it but I would want to see the full email of their question and response from the USGA before I believed it. It is my understanding that you are not allowed to share the USGA's responses so what to do there?

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > They don't want the player who is wound so tight they could split an atom between their posterior cheeks.

> >

> I am amused to note that some people who pressure others to avoid the rules of golf think that it's the rules-abider who's "wound tight."

>

>

I know you are. Be careful of that atom.

 

[nsxguy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

> > > >

> > > > Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

> > > >

> > > > As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

> >

> > Totally get that but most golfers I am aware of, especially those that belong to CLUBS, modify the Rules as permitted by the Rules, as in approved LOCAL Rules. If there IS such a local rule that allows you to modify the rule that gives a player a choice of leaving it in or taking it out I apologize in advance.

> >

> > Further, not that it matters to you personally, but if you're a USGA member club I imagine they would take a dim view of your making such a rule change.

>

> I don't see it the same. First I don't think the **agreement** beforehand is against the rule as written. Secondly a player could choose to go against their agreement but then would **just** be disqualified from the 'regular guys' event, not sponsored by the club, which the USGA has no say in. They could continue their round and post just like the players who decided to stick to their agreement and leave the pin in the whole way.

>

> The club is a USGA member club. If people are so worried about it then I would suggest they contact the USGA about it but I would want to see the full email of their question and response from the USGA before I believed it. It is my understanding that you are not allowed to share the USGA's responses so what to do there?

 

Well, it doesn't matter how you (OR I) "see it". "People so worried" ? If I'm one of those people, I'm not worried at all. Doesn't affect me one way or the other. But you actually brought it up in discussion so let's discuss it.

 

I wonder what percentage of your players would even have any idea of what your committee is and isn't allowed to do per the USGA. I'm betting you and/or your committee know a heck of a lot more about the rules than your average member.

 

Pathetic but the guys in my old club would come to ME with Rules questions. What a joke !!! But that shows me how ignorant the vast majority of players are about the Rules. I know most(?) of the "everyday" issues and enough to know that if there's confusion, to announce that you're playing 2 balls and tell the others which one you want to count if permitted by rule. I also know a few "other" procedures, mostly thanks to the guys in this forum.

 

Anyway, I assume you already know that players can't agree to waive a rule of golf, yes ? Penalty I believe is DQ.

 

For the Committee, "_When in charge of a competition, the Committee has responsibilities before, during and after play to ensure the smooth running of the competition under the Rules_."

 

Now, while I know the players can't waive a rule of golf, it seems logical the Committee can't either as they would then NOT be running the comp "under the rules" (or approved local rules).

 

As for the USGA, why not shoot them an email ? Then I wouldn't have to publish their response as you would already have it and could say "We're OK", or "We're NOT OK" - nothing wrong with posting a general recap of their answer.

 

As for the question and how it's phrased. I would simply ask a totally neutral question as so. "My club is a USGA Member organization. Are we permitted to make a condition of competition "Flag must always be left in by all players while putting" ?" (Or flag MUST be taken out by all players) ".

 

Go ahead. Send them the email. I've sent them a half dozen questions over the last 15 years or so. They generally answer pretty quickly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

> > > >

> > > > Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

> > > >

> > > > As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

> >

> > Totally get that but most golfers I am aware of, especially those that belong to CLUBS, modify the Rules as permitted by the Rules, as in approved LOCAL Rules. If there IS such a local rule that allows you to modify the rule that gives a player a choice of leaving it in or taking it out I apologize in advance.

> >

> > Further, not that it matters to you personally, but if you're a USGA member club I imagine they would take a dim view of your making such a rule change.

>

> I don't see it the same. First I don't think the **agreement** beforehand is against the rule as written. Secondly a player could choose to go against their agreement but then would **just** be disqualified from the 'regular guys' event, not sponsored by the club, which the USGA has no say in. They could continue their round and post just like the players who decided to stick to their agreement and leave the pin in the whole way.

>

> The club is a USGA member club. If people are so worried about it then I would suggest they contact the USGA about it but I would want to see the full email of their question and response from the USGA before I believed it. It is my understanding that you are not allowed to share the USGA's responses so what to do there?

 

Hats, you don't "see it" the way the Ruling Bodies do. That's fine for you and your associates, you're obviously free to do what you wish, but the fact is that if you're playing by the rules you may not make an agreement to waive the option to remove the flag. No need to write to the USGA, here's all you need to come to a conclusion:

 

From 1.3b (1):

If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement).

 

In addition, 1.3b(1)/1:

1.3b(1)/1 – Disqualifying Players Who Know a Rule but Deliberately Agree to Ignore It

 

If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies, they will be disqualified unless the agreement is made before the round and is cancelled before any player involved in the agreement begins his or her round.

 

For example, in stroke play, two players agree to consider putts within a club-length of the hole holed, when they know that they must hole out on each hole.

 

While on the first putting green, another player in the group learns of this agreement. That player insists the two players who made the agreement hole out, and they do so.

 

Even though neither player who made the agreement acted on it by failing to hole out, they are still disqualified because they deliberately agreed to ignore Rule 3.3c (Failure to Hole Out).

 

 

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > If I was running that particular event my ruling, if I had to make it on the spot, would be if a player feels the flag stick is blocking the hole then they would be allowed to have someone hold the flag straight while they putted **GASP**. If someone asked "well then what do I post to GHIN?" I would respond with "I **really, absolutely** don't care, make up your own mind". Really, I do not care in the least. If one of our players continued to attempt to have someone in the group hold the flag for putts where the flag was not interfering then they would get called out by the rest of the group.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, there are those who play by the Rules and those that don't.

> > > > >

> > > > > As has already been pointed out, it's pretty clear both you and your "Commish" don't care to play by the Rules,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so I guess you can do whatever you want. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well, there are those that have to play by the rules every stroke, hole, round, breathing moment and those that will adapt if a given situation calls for going outside of the rules. Luckily I haven't run across the player that lives, breathes and dies by playing 100% by the USGA rules every moment they are on the course in a very long time.

> > >

> > > Totally get that but most golfers I am aware of, especially those that belong to CLUBS, modify the Rules as permitted by the Rules, as in approved LOCAL Rules. If there IS such a local rule that allows you to modify the rule that gives a player a choice of leaving it in or taking it out I apologize in advance.

> > >

> > > Further, not that it matters to you personally, but if you're a USGA member club I imagine they would take a dim view of your making such a rule change.

> >

> > I don't see it the same. First I don't think the **agreement** beforehand is against the rule as written. Secondly a player could choose to go against their agreement but then would **just** be disqualified from the 'regular guys' event, not sponsored by the club, which the USGA has no say in. They could continue their round and post just like the players who decided to stick to their agreement and leave the pin in the whole way.

> >

> > The club is a USGA member club. If people are so worried about it then I would suggest they contact the USGA about it but I would want to see the full email of their question and response from the USGA before I believed it. It is my understanding that you are not allowed to share the USGA's responses so what to do there?

>

> Hats, you don't "see it" the way the Ruling Bodies do. That's fine for you and your associates, you're obviously free to do what you wish, but the fact is that if you're playing by the rules you may not make an agreement to waive the option to remove the flag. No need to write to the USGA, here's all you need to come to a conclusion:

>

> From 1.3b (1):

> **If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement).**

>

> In addition, 1.3b(1)/1:

> 1.3b(1)/1 – Disqualifying Players Who Know a Rule but Deliberately Agree to Ignore It

>

> If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies, they will be disqualified unless the agreement is made before the round and is cancelled before any player involved in the agreement begins his or her round.

>

> For example, in stroke play, two players agree to consider putts within a club-length of the hole holed, when they know that they must hole out on each hole.

>

> While on the first putting green, another player in the group learns of this agreement. That player insists the two players who made the agreement hole out, and they do so.

>

> Even though neither player who made the agreement acted on it by failing to hole out, they are still disqualified because they deliberately agreed to ignore Rule 3.3c (Failure to Hole Out).

>

>

>

>

>

 

So Hats and his crew of followers are ineligible for prizes but the guy that removed the pin-and thus is ineligible to win a prize-wins it all? I am so confused! :)

 

The only thing I find odd about this issue is that Hats accuses those wishing to play by the rules as "wound to tight" and then says if you play by the rules in his group you are ineligible to win a prize. Sounds like the "wound too tight" is on the other foot.

[farmer]

> @dpb5031 said:

> Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

[dpb5031]

> @farmer said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> >

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

 

I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

 

Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

[HatsForBats]

I don't see any ignoring of a rule only choosing one valid option over the other.

 

If you still don't see it that way... according to you which players are allowed, by the USGA rules, to post their scores in Event 1 and then Event 2? Yes, the examples may seem extreme but it is only to see what answers we might get.

 

**EVENT 1:**

Player A, in a foursome, **thinks** to themselves before a round I think I am going to leave the pin in for every putt today. The player finishes 18 holes and never makes a stroke with the pin removed.

 

Player B publicly states before the round "Our $1 bet for 18 holes pin in the whole way is on?". The player finishes 18 holes, in the same foursome, and never putts with the pin removed.

 

Player C publicly states before the round "B, yes our bet is on". The player finishes 18 holes, in the same foursome, and hits every putt with the **pin removed**.

 

Player D publicly states they are going to play with the pin out for every putt. The player finishes 18 holes, in the same foursome, but every stroke the pin is left *IN*.

 

**EVENT 2**

All players agree right before a round to play the days round with the pin in the whole way. Not another word is spoken throughout the round.

 

Player A never makes a stroke with the pin removed.

 

Player B never makes a stroke with the pin removed.

 

Player C hits every putt with the **pin removed**.

 

Player D removes the pin for some strokes and not for others.

[Sawgrass]

> @HatsForBats said:

> I don't see any ignoring of a rule only choosing one valid option over the other.

>

> Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

 

Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

 

As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

 

[Sawgrass]

Sorry, somehow my commentary got mixed in with your quote. From the word "Agreeing" on, the words are mine.

 

[farmer]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @farmer said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > >

> > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

>

> I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

>

> Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

 

I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

[Augster]

> @farmer said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > >

> > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> >

> > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> >

> > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

>

> I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

 

This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

 

In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

 

If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

 

Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

 

That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

 

 

 

[Newby]

> @dpb5031 said:

> Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30G938

 

"Of course, they are not perfect, so assume their putts adhere to what scientists call a ‘normal distribution.’ A normal distribution is basically what we know as a bell curve. For our really good golfer, we’ll assume that the middle of the hole gets the most activity (the top of the bell curve) and then the range of all putts drops off equally left and right of dead center, stretching at the extremes beyond the edges of the hole."

 

If this were true zero balls would miss the hole

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Newby said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> >

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30G938

>

> "Of course, they are not perfect, so assume their putts adhere to what scientists call a ‘normal distribution.’ A normal distribution is basically what we know as a bell curve. For our really good golfer, we’ll assume that the middle of the hole gets the most activity (the top of the bell curve) and then the range of all putts drops off equally left and right of dead center, stretching at the extremes beyond the edges of the hole."

>

> If this were true zero balls would miss the hole

 

Setting up an experiment to see how many putts go in which never touch the hole seems to not be useful (just speculating).

[dpb5031]

> @farmer said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > >

> > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> >

> > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> >

> > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

>

> I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

 

They **_did _**look at slower moving putts and concluded that on those that hit the direct center of the hole, the "make rate" was the same, in or out. Off center putts missed more frequently by a significant percentage with the stick left in. The stick only helps on putts rolling at a speed that would have the ball finishing more than 8' past the hole.

[dpb5031]

> @Augster said:

> > @farmer said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > > >

> > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> > >

> > > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> > >

> > > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

> >

> > I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

>

> This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

>

> In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

>

> If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

>

> Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

>

> That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

>

>

>

 

Agree 100%. I've got nearly 60 rounds in under the new rule and although I prefer the stick out, I play with some who prefer it left in for all putts. I've seen enough breaking putts (both high side & low side) enter the hole off-center and get deflected by the flagstick when everyone in the group agreed it would have dropped had the stick been out. This study supports what I've been seeing on the course with a fairly large sample size given my number of rounds played under the new rule.

[HatsForBats]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

>

> Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

>

> As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

>

 

Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

 

Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nsxguy]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> >

> > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> >

> > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> >

>

> Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

>

> Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Sheesh. You want to just play with words so it comes out the way you want it to.

 

Why not just write the generic question and send it in to the USGA and see what they say already ?

 

You said the Commish, in the conditions of the competition, overrode a rule of golf by saying the pin must stay in (or was it much come out ?). Ask the USGA if he, or anyone else on the committee, can issue such a condition of competition.

[Augster]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> > > >

> > > > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

> > >

> > > I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

> >

> > This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

> >

> > In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

> >

> > If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

> >

> > Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

> >

> > That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Agree 100%. I've got nearly 60 rounds in under the new rule and although I prefer the stick out, I play with some who prefer it left in for all putts. I've seen enough breaking putts (both high side & low side) enter the hole off-center and get deflected by the flagstick when everyone in the group agreed it would have dropped had the stick been out. This study supports what I've been seeing on the course with a fairly large sample size given my number of rounds played under the new rule.

 

Good! I’m glad I’m not seeing things. To the USGA’s point, yes, the ball stays closer than the 5 feet it was going to run out if it hadn’t hit the hole at all. But that glance off the stick miss is an absolute killer.

 

My sample size isn’t as large as yours. I have 17 rounds in playing with 3 or 4 in the group. And I’ve seen 3 miss off the stick that likely may have gone in. That’s 3 too many for me.

 

All it’ll take Bryson and Scott is ONE of those that ends up costing them $100,000 and they’ll be done with the pin in inside 20 feet.

 

[HatsForBats]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > >

> > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > >

> > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > >

> >

> > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> >

> > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Sheesh. You want to just play with words so it comes out the way you want it to.

>

> Why not just write the generic question and send it in to the USGA and see what they say already ?

>

> You said the Commish, in the conditions of the competition, overrode a rule of golf by saying the pin must stay in (or was it much come out ?). Ask the USGA if he, or anyone else on the committee, can issue such a condition of competition.

 

I see no sense in wasting the time of the USGA by asking a question about something that might happen twice in my lifetime. I don't consider the discussion a waste of our time. Maybe you do.

[bladehunter]

Very entertaining guys. Bravo ! Lol

 

 

Anybody think about putting the shoe on the other foot ? You’ve got 3 pin out guys and a 4th who’s pin in. They go The Whole round pulling The pin as soon as they reach the green and not putting it back for old #4. After the round the 3 give #4 ( me pin in ) the “ it’s not you it’s us “ speech and let him know he needs to find another group. There would be an outcry , no?

 

What ever happened to being inclusive ? Seems like we had a similar argument on music on course. And some posters were very pro rules , including the new rule and saying the music lovers were in the right to do so respectfully. And as long as they claimed it not to be for tempo advantage etc. Now it seems the line for inclusiveness and rules following is drawn somewhere after music and before the option of pin out . Hmmmm.