What’s with Crossfield and “strokes gained” subject lately?

[i*windows]

> @BB28403 said:

> Crossfield is stuck on Mark Brodie’s Strokes gained App at the moment.

> It is kind of annoying him just throwing out these stats constantly.

> He does not focus on how one could improve or actually fixing a problem. He just throws out stats.

> I miss his Journey stuff with the amateurs .

> It’s still good entertainment, just c’mon mark, get off the strokes gained stuff.

 

Someone must have put tape over his mouth whilst they explained it to him and now it's stuck in his head like D plane was a while ago.

[BB28403]

> @"i*windows" said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > Crossfield is stuck on Mark Brodie’s Strokes gained App at the moment.

> > It is kind of annoying him just throwing out these stats constantly.

> > He does not focus on how one could improve or actually fixing a problem. He just throws out stats.

> > I miss his Journey stuff with the amateurs .

> > It’s still good entertainment, just c’mon mark, get off the strokes gained stuff.

>

> Someone must have put tape over his mouth whilst they explained it to him and now it's stuck in his head like D plane was a while ago.

 

I think he learns as he babbles out words. Haha

I love Dan’s puzzled looks

[BB28403]

I watched the “medals” set of videos today. Why were they playing from the white tees?

[oikos1]

> @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

 

 

40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty damn important.

 

 

[BB28403]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

>

>

> 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

>

>

 

I’m thinking of teeing it forward to the greens. ?

[Krt22]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

>

>

> 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

>

>

 

For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

 

Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

[oikos1]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> >

> >

> > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> >

> >

>

> For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

>

> Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

>

> https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

 

 

Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

[rich_s2]

Whats more important, proximity to the hole or putting? How can this even be a question... I know some horrific putters that will 4 putt from 60' but will 2 putt from 15.

[gentles]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > >

> > >

> > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

> >

> > Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

> >

> > https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

>

>

> Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

 

Lets say you average 32 putts a round and average score of 80. How many of those are tapins from inside 3 feet which require virtually no skill (every golfer will make ~100% of tapins)? Maybe 10-12? That leaves 20 putts where ability makes a difference so straight away your 40-50% becomes closer to 25% straight away.

 

Of those 20 putts, how many strokes is a very good putter going to gain over a rubbish putter? Even the very best on tour only make 1/5 from 15 feet+, so there isn't that much room for the good putter to gain strokes over a bad putter. Not to mention that putting is so much more dependent on green conditions and chance than any other part of the game....the variance in putting statistics is much higher than tee to green stats.

 

Compare that to tee shots - hitting in the trees is so much worse than being in the fairway, it often costs you a full stroke to get the ball back in play. Similarly, missing a green with a 8 iron can cost you at least one, sometimes more. Missing a 20 footer costs you a fraction of a stroke, even compared to the very best putters.

 

If an 18 handicap had Tiger putting for him, me might improve his score by 5 or 6, maybe more if he putts well. If the same 18 handicap had Tiger hitting his first and second shots his score would improve by at least 10, if not more strokes. in a nutshell that is where the idea that putting isn't as important

 

Top 10 strokes gained tee to green

Dustin Johnson

Francesco Molinari

Justin Thomas

Justin Rose

Henrik Stenson

Rory McIlroy

Luke List

Tiger Woods

Tommy Fleetwood

Patrick Cantlay

 

Top 10 putters on PGA tour last year

Greg Chalmers

Jason Day

Alex Noren

Daniel Summerhays

Webb Simpson

Beau Hossler

Johnson Wagner

Peter Malnati

Patrick Rodgers

Emiliano Grillo

 

Which list has better correlation with performance?

 

[mbarnocki]

> @BB28403 said:

> I watched the “medals” set of videos today. Why were they playing from the white tees?

 

I looked up the course they play, it is their home course. The white tees are the back tees there. It is only 5800 from the tips, those guys have never been hung up on tees though. They always seem to play the whites on course vlogs.

[Krt22]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > >

> > >

> > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

> >

> > Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

> >

> > https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

>

>

> Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

 

Did you even bother to read what I posted or look at the data before formulating such a response? For making large improvements in your game...it's lower hanging fruit. Now if you have 40 putts a round and shooting in the 80s that is another story, which is partially about what this thread is about, knowing your weaknesses vs golfers of a similar skill level. The reality is it's not that hard to become a proficient putter and if you strike the ball well you will score decently as long as you aren't a head case with the flat stick. And in general as you strike the ball better (ie continue to get the ball closer to the hole on ALL shots) the total number of putts will decrease. More GIRs means fewer chips/sand shots (or double chips/sand shots), when you do miss the green your chip/sand shot is shorter/easier which will lead to shorter putts to get up and down. So some may say well scratch golfers just putt better, while that may be true for some, the reality is they just put themselves in the position to have a shorter first putt by striking the ball better

 

 

 

[BB28403]

> @mbarnocki said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > I watched the “medals” set of videos today. Why were they playing from the white tees?

>

> I looked up the course they play, it is their home course. The white tees are the back tees there. It is only 5800 from the tips, those guys have never been hung up on tees though. They always seem to play the whites on course vlogs.

 

Gotcha, I never noticed! With their lengths they should always play the back tees, not championship tees, but at least the back.

[chrism]

Typically in the UK the white tees are the competition tees and the yellow tees are the regular tees - not like the North American tee system

[BB28403]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

> > >

> > > Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

> > >

> > > https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

> >

> >

> > Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

>

> Did you even bother to read what I posted or look at the data before formulating such a response? For making large improvements in your game...it's lower hanging fruit. Now if you have 40 putts a round and shooting in the 80s that is another story, which is partially about what this thread is about, knowing your weaknesses vs golfers of a similar skill level. The reality is it's not that hard to become a proficient putter and if you strike the ball well you will score decently as long as you aren't a head case with the flat stick. And in general as you strike the ball better (ie continue to get the ball closer to the hole on ALL shots) the total number of putts will decrease. More GIRs means fewer chips/sand shots (or double chips/sand shots), when you do miss the green your chip/sand shot is shorter/easier which will lead to shorter putts to get up and down. So some may say well scratch golfers just putt better, while that may be true for some, the reality is they just put themselves in the position to have a shorter first putt by striking the ball better

>

>

>

 

> @chrism said:

> Typically in the UK the white tees are the competition tees and the yellow tees are the regular tees - not like the North American tee system

 

I guess that explains it! Thanks. Sometimes I see blue tees in the Vlogs as being the back ones.

[oikos1]

> @"rich s" said:

> Whats more important, proximity to the hole or putting? How can this even be a question... I know some horrific putters that will 4 putt from 60' but will 2 putt from 15.

 

And I've seen plenty of three putts from 10 feet.

[oikos1]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

> > >

> > > Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

> > >

> > > https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

> >

> >

> > Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

>

> Did you even bother to read what I posted or look at the data before formulating such a response? For making large improvements in your game...it's lower hanging fruit. Now if you have 40 putts a round and shooting in the 80s that is another story, which is partially about what this thread is about, knowing your weaknesses vs golfers of a similar skill level. The reality is it's not that hard to become a proficient putter and if you strike the ball well you will score decently as long as you aren't a head case with the flat stick. And in general as you strike the ball better (ie continue to get the ball closer to the hole on ALL shots) the total number of putts will decrease. More GIRs means fewer chips/sand shots (or double chips/sand shots), when you do miss the green your chip/sand shot is shorter/easier which will lead to shorter putts to get up and down. So some may say well scratch golfers just putt better, while that may be true for some, the reality is they just put themselves in the position to have a shorter first putt by striking the ball better

>

>

>

 

Does the data measure pressure putts? Surely you know some players who are more clutch with the flat stick than others.

[pinhigh27]

> @BB28403 said:

> > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

>

>

> I think it just applies to pros. It’s like they are using this system to argue over a 1/32nd size slice of cake. When amateurs have a million different ways to improve. While the pros only have that small sliver of cake between their winning and their losing, and Strokes Gained was created based on their (the pros) data.

> So I feel it does not apply to amateurs who can shave 10 strokes off their game by improving , instead of chasing the “numbers”

 

why not do both? make your swing better and make smarter decisions.

[BB28403]

> @pinhigh27 said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting, 50% will say short game. It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> >

> >

> > I think it just applies to pros. It’s like they are using this system to argue over a 1/32nd size slice of cake. When amateurs have a million different ways to improve. While the pros only have that small sliver of cake between their winning and their losing, and Strokes Gained was created based on their (the pros) data.

> > So I feel it does not apply to amateurs who can shave 10 strokes off their game by improving , instead of chasing the “numbers”

>

> why not do both? make your swing better and make smarter decisions.

 

Amateurs tend to have 1 track minds. I just think this confuses them. “Do the most good” is common sense.

For a single digit amateur just getting into tournaments, then it may help!

[pinhigh27]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @"rich s" said:

> > Whats more important, proximity to the hole or putting? How can this even be a question... I know some horrific putters that will 4 putt from 60' but will 2 putt from 15.

>

> And I've seen plenty of three putts from 10 feet.

 

maybe from horrible players, doesn't really happen at single digit and better level except on unusual set ups or green configurations.

 

putting is tremendously important but so is ball-striking. using the " 50 % of shots are putts" argument though overstates the importance of putting. if you hit 12-14 drivers a round that is a much lesser percentage yet the best drivers typically have a similar to slightly higher strokes gained than the best putters do in terms of putting. obviously it's best to be good at everything a la spieth from a couple years ago but if I had to pick one the stats say elite ball-strikers usually do better than short game wizards

 

often people think they are horrible putters because their 3 putt percentage is pretty high when they are just hitting it to like 50 feet a lot which is a pretty tough lag and for a 10 handicap they are going to 3 putt a decent amount.

[Krt22]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

> > > >

> > > > Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

> > > >

> > > > https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

> > >

> > >

> > > Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

> >

> > Did you even bother to read what I posted or look at the data before formulating such a response? For making large improvements in your game...it's lower hanging fruit. Now if you have 40 putts a round and shooting in the 80s that is another story, which is partially about what this thread is about, knowing your weaknesses vs golfers of a similar skill level. The reality is it's not that hard to become a proficient putter and if you strike the ball well you will score decently as long as you aren't a head case with the flat stick. And in general as you strike the ball better (ie continue to get the ball closer to the hole on ALL shots) the total number of putts will decrease. More GIRs means fewer chips/sand shots (or double chips/sand shots), when you do miss the green your chip/sand shot is shorter/easier which will lead to shorter putts to get up and down. So some may say well scratch golfers just putt better, while that may be true for some, the reality is they just put themselves in the position to have a shorter first putt by striking the ball better

> >

> >

> >

>

> Does the data measure pressure putts? Surely you know some players who are more clutch with the flat stick than others.

 

The data is the data, "pressure" is completely subjective. Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump large sums of quantifiable data and sway the argument at all. Ive 3-putted from 6 feet, that doesnt mean im a terrible putter and it doesnt mean I would dramatically improve if spent more time putting. Anecdotally, I know I have fewer putts when I hit more greens and leave easier up and downs. Played the same course two weeks in a row, had 30 putts last week, 35 today. Struck the ball much better last week, more GIRs, easier up and downs

[oikos1]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > For a bunch of scratch golfers ina tournament sure , for a mid cap trying to get into single digits the statistics say otherwise. The difference between a scratch golfer and a mid cap with a 90 scoring average is only a few putts per round, yet almost 15 strokes total between the two scoring averages.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not to mention the closer you hit it to the hole the fewer putts you will generally have, as you will have fewer three putts and a have easier up and downs when you do miss a green

> > > > >

> > > > > https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Ok, putting isn't that important.

> > >

> > > Did you even bother to read what I posted or look at the data before formulating such a response? For making large improvements in your game...it's lower hanging fruit. Now if you have 40 putts a round and shooting in the 80s that is another story, which is partially about what this thread is about, knowing your weaknesses vs golfers of a similar skill level. The reality is it's not that hard to become a proficient putter and if you strike the ball well you will score decently as long as you aren't a head case with the flat stick. And in general as you strike the ball better (ie continue to get the ball closer to the hole on ALL shots) the total number of putts will decrease. More GIRs means fewer chips/sand shots (or double chips/sand shots), when you do miss the green your chip/sand shot is shorter/easier which will lead to shorter putts to get up and down. So some may say well scratch golfers just putt better, while that may be true for some, the reality is they just put themselves in the position to have a shorter first putt by striking the ball better

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Does the data measure pressure putts? Surely you know some players who are more clutch with the flat stick than others.

>

> The data is the data, "pressure" is completely subjective. Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump large sums of quantifiable data and sway the argument at all. Ive 3-putted from 6 feet, that doesnt mean im a terrible putter and it doesnt mean I would dramatically improve if spent more time putting. Anecdotally, I know I have fewer putts when I hit more greens and leave easier up and downs. Played the same course two weeks in a row, had 30 putts last week, 35 today. Struck the ball much better last week, more GIRs, easier up and downs

 

I already conceded _you_ were right, putting isn't that important, but you don't seem to be satisfied with your position.

 

You stated: **"The reality is it's not that hard to become a proficient putter and if you strike the ball well you will score decently as long as you aren't a head case with the flat stick." ** That's a pretty big assumption.

 

I'm completely aware that if you hit more greens and hit the ball closer that you'll have a better chance of shooting lower scores. That seems self evident and frankly, I don't need a bunch of statistics to tell me that. I also wouldn't say "pressure" is subjective. It might be difficult to measure, thus the reason Broadie can't evaluate "pressure" currently, but it's certainly more than anecdotal.

 

It's the idea of "what's most important" and "golfers not knowing" that was first mentioned. Stats are helpful, but they are relative to each individual's game at a particular point in time. Ask Webb Simpson or Jordan Spieth what the most important part of the game is to them right now.

 

Everybody wants to hit the ball closer to the hole. And then you have to deal with reality.

[Krt22]

I don't care if you concede or not, if you want to spend lots of time working on your pressure putting be my guest.

 

But you bring up a very valid point of the statistics being individual, that is exactly what strokes gained is about. It measures each aspect of your game relative to others. If you compare a mid or high cap to a scratch player the biggest differences will be in the ball striking categories, so if those players want to get better the most important thing to improve is clear. Lots of people post about wanting to get dramatically better and lots of people default to short game/putting, but that typically isn't going to bring the most change which is the whole point Of using statistics to identify the main weaknesses of your game.

 

As for spieth. Lots of folks bring up his putting being off, in reality he's terrible right now striking the ball. 202nd SG off the tee, 175th SG tee to green, 145th proximity to the hole, while 55th in SG putting. He's crooked and not that long which isn't a good combination of you can't rely on draining a bunch of 20 footers

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @"rich s" said:

> Whats more important, proximity to the hole or putting? How can this even be a question... I know some horrific putters that will 4 putt from 60' but will 2 putt from 15.

 

Theoretically the putting is easiest to cleanup therefore has to be the priority. No ?

 

I say that as a guy who’s always hit it close and been Uber aggressive because of the propensity to 3 putt if I’m not close.

 

So the answer is two fold. If you’re just trying to break 90. Sure. Putting isn’t the focus. But if you’re trying to shoot low 70s or better. Putting is the most important thing . Putter is used more than any other club. It means a lot.

[iHititStraightSometimes]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

>

>

> 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

>

>

 

Haha. You just proved my point. As I said, most people will say putting/short game are the most important which is exactly what you did. But you clearly don't have a thorough understanding of SGs. The data does not lie. I suggest researching it a little more before attacking. Then come back and let me hear your thoughts. I'd be interested if you still think putting is the most important part.

[BB28403]

> @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> >

> >

> > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> >

> >

>

> Haha. You just proved my point. As I said, most people will say putting/short game are the most important which is exactly what you did. But you clearly don't have a thorough understanding of SGs. The data does not lie. I suggest researching it a little more before attacking. Then come back and let me hear your thoughts. I'd be interested if you still think putting is the most important part.

 

Actually Strokes Gained is a reading of where the holes in your game are. It will vary by individual. If you run the App on your game and it tells you that Driving is your strength and approach to the greens is your weakness. Then focus on your weakness. You spending time on driving would be a waste. The driving is better than the “field” and so you cannot Gain on them or your gains would be minimal. You can gain in other area.

“Big Gains Bro! Thanks bro, I’m feeling Swoll”. Lol

But again I think unless you are doing tournaments at a certain level (perhaps state?), then YMMV.

[oikos1]

> @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> >

> >

> > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> >

> >

>

> Haha. You just proved my point. As I said, most people will say putting/short game are the most important which is exactly what you did. But you clearly don't have a thorough understanding of SGs. The data does not lie. I suggest researching it a little more before attacking. Then come back and let me hear your thoughts. I'd be interested if you still think putting is the most important part.

 

I never said putting was the most important. I said "Putting is pretty **** important." And it does seem the discussion has become conflated with some using qualifiers like "90's shooters vs scratch golfers". That certainly wasn't the OP's original premise nor was included in the post which I responded to you.

 

At best, what is most important is relative. The 50% of non SG people you cite who say putting is most important may very well be correct if considering their game. You saying some other aspect is more important may very well be correct for you, but casting a blanket that putting or short game may not be most important for individual golfers just isn't accurate. Honestly, I don't even know what you think is most important. Is it "Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards"?

 

Ultimately, getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes is what is most important if using score as a measure for winning a match.

 

 

[BB28403]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > @oikos1 said:

> > > > @iHititStraightSometimes said:

> > > > The only problem I have with it is that people might start realizing strokes gained matters and will take away the slight advantage I have. It's kind of crazy to me that not everyone is a believer in SG. The stats don't lie. Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards. **You ask non-SG people what the most important part of the game is, and 50% will say putting**, 50% will say short game. **It's pretty clear and evident this is not the case**. If you haven't read Broadie's book, I would highly suggest it. I may be in the minority (and I haven't seen all of Crossfield's videos on SG), but I enjoy hearing as much as possible about it. Maybe it's because I'm just a numbers geek, but I'm a big believer in SGs.

> > >

> > >

> > > 40-50% of strokes in an 18 hole round are putts. Putting is pretty **** important.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Haha. You just proved my point. As I said, most people will say putting/short game are the most important which is exactly what you did. But you clearly don't have a thorough understanding of SGs. The data does not lie. I suggest researching it a little more before attacking. Then come back and let me hear your thoughts. I'd be interested if you still think putting is the most important part.

>

> I never said putting was the most important. I said "Putting is pretty **** important." And it does seem the discussion has become conflated with some using qualifiers like "90's shooters vs scratch golfers". That certainly wasn't the OP's original premise nor was included in the post which I responded to you.

>

> At best, what is most important is relative. The 50% of non SG people you cite who say putting is most important may very well be correct if considering their game. You saying some other aspect is more important may very well be correct for you, but casting a blanket that putting or short game may not be most important for individual golfers just isn't accurate. Honestly, I don't even know what you think is most important. Is it "Any golfer, on average, is going to hit it closer from the rough at 120 yards than the fairway at 160 yards"?

>

> Ultimately, getting the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes is what is most important if using score as a measure for winning a match.

>

>

 

@iHititStraightSometimes to me seems like a more proponent for driving vs. any other aspects of the game. But correct me if I’m wrong! :)

[LeftDaddy]

So many misconceptions in here about Strokes Gained etc.

 

The first misconception is that SG is only for pros or scratch amateurs. It isn’t. It is for any golfer. It just so happens that they have Shotlink data for pros to be able to make the comparisons. But even that data is useful. It could tell me where my gaps are relative to a tour pros scores, and at least I would know the priority of things for me to improve even if I was losing 20 strokes per round to a pro.

 

Second, 50% of shots are putts, therefore it must be really important. Well, of course it is important, but the reason putting isn’t the stroke drain everyone thinks it is was explained above...big improvements in putting still don’t translate to making more than a fraction of 20 footers etc per round. There are strokes to be gained with 3-7 footers though.

 

SG just says to hit it as far as you can, and for tour pros that works because they hit it 300. But not for amateurs. No, that isn’t what it says either. It does say that 25 extra yards is worth more than what conventional wisdom says. So it is saying that instead of laying back with an iron for safety, you should always hit driver or 3 wood if you can still avoid hazards. And you should aim away from those hazards.

 

Anyway, I could go on. The conventional wisdom folks will never believe any of it so I’ve stopped trying. And besides, I’m a 9 handicap. What could I possibly know about golf.

 

Oh, and Broadie didn’t invent Shotlink. He sure as heck uses it though. And FYI that my thesis advisor was one of the original inventors of the SG concept, and he sent me a copy of the original paper they sent to the PGA. They had to dumb it down a lot for the PGA, etc. That paper will put you to sleep. Broadie’s book is at least somewhat readable.

[SNIPERBBB]

Putting can make up a lot but you have to get to the putting green first. Three putting sucks but its not something to really get worked up a bit if it happens once or twice a round outside of tournaments or money games.

 

Here's how I look at things:

If you miss every green in regulation, chip on, then 2 two putt you shoot 90 on a par 72 course. Scramble at 50% while missing every GIR and you shoot 81. GIR 50% then making all pars and Scramble 44% gets you 77. Sneak a few 1 putts in and you can have a pretty good round.

 

Of course to the above, you have to put yourself in position to get the GIR or just miss it. If you're having to try to hole out from the fairway or off the green for par due to wayward drives, chunked irons or flubbed chips constantly will inflate your score faster than a bad putting round. The putter can deflate that balloon if your really good.

[BB28403]

> @mbarnocki said:

> > @BB28403 said:

> > I watched the “medals” set of videos today. Why were they playing from the white tees?

>

> I looked up the course they play, it is their home course. The white tees are the back tees there. It is only 5800 from the tips, those guys have never been hung up on tees though. They always seem to play the whites on course vlogs.

 

5800 is so short! Is that Torquay? Is it a public course?