Help Match up 3 wood shaft in driver

[Hasone33]

I currently have a 3 wood which I love the set up. It does not spin much and goes just as far as my driver.

It is a 2016 M2 Glue in Hosel w/ Tour AdDi 7x Tipped 1"

I am looking for a driver shaft that would play similar in spin and ball height, mainly spin.

My current driver set up is a 2016 M2 9.5 w/ Kuro Kage Dual Core Tini Silver 60X. I dont think their is any tipping on it.

I could put another Ad Di 7x Tipped 1" in the driver but not sure on playability on a Driver w/ Tip vs my glue in 3 wood.

Thanks for looking

 

[Hasone33]

any club makers that have knowledge of this?

 

 

Thanks

[Kale_m]

Try a ad-di 6x tipped 1/2”

[Stuart_G]

The technically correct approach is to adjust how much tipping is done based on

1) the difference in head weights ~1/2" for each extra 10 gm of head weight

and

2) the difference in BBGM between the two heads

 

Bore depth can also play a part but typically are not different enough to worry about between std bore head.

 

BUT - it's not always that simple. Generally people will want to use a heavier shaft in the 3wd than the driver (or lighter shaft in the driver compared with the fairways). Typically 5 gm per inch difference in playing length. And changing weight can result in a different profile even for the same model shaft. Also, some people have different swings between the fairways and driver - and that can effect the results as well.

 

So generally the best approach is to approach the question of what shaft and what tipping as more independent fittings with the driver and fairway than try to use one to make final decisions on the other. The relationship can be used as a starting place in the fitting process but one shouldn't really depend on it to much for the final build.

[Hasone33]

> @Kale_m said:

> Try a ad-di 6x tipped 1/2”

 

Kale, I see you have the tensei pro orange tx which is on my radar for driver shaft.

Do you feel if they are tipped same amount that they play equal in flex ?

I was thinking a tensei pro orange 60tx from TM where they tip 1" would be perfect.

[Hasone33]

> @Stuart_G said:

> The technically correct approach is to adjust how much tipping is done based on

> 1) the difference in head weights ~1/2" for each extra 10 gm of head weight

> and

> 2) the difference in BBGM between the two heads

>

> Bore depth can also play a part but typically are not different enough to worry about between std bore head.

>

> BUT - it's not always that simple. Generally people will want to use a heavier shaft in the 3wd than the driver (or lighter shaft in the driver compared with the fairways). Typically 5 gm per inch difference in playing length. And changing weight can result in a different profile even for the same model shaft. Also, some people have different swings between the fairways and driver - and that can effect the results as well.

>

> So generally the best approach is to approach the question of what shaft and what tipping as more independent fittings with the driver and fairway than try to use one to make final decisions on the other. The relationship can be used as a starting place in the fitting process but one shouldn't really depend on it to much for the final build.

 

Stuart, I play the driver at 44.5" and the 3 wd at 42.5" Are you saying since the 3 wd is shorter than standard it would play stiffer with same weight head at 43"?

The 2016 m2 3 wd that is glue in hosel and not a tip is what got me thinking that I would have to tip the driver shaft at least the same amount as the 3 wood shaft. To me the same shaft tipped 1" would play stiffer in a glue in hosel vs in a tip?

Thanks or chiming in

[Stuart_G]

> @Hasone33 said:

> Stuart, I play the driver at 44.5" and the 3 wd at 42.5" Are you saying since the 3 wd is shorter than standard it would play stiffer with same weight head at 43"?

 

No, I didn't address that. But it's really the head weight that dominates how it will play, not the length - especially just 1/2" difference.

 

> @Hasone33 said:

> The 2016 m2 3 wd that is glue in hosel and not a tip is what got me thinking that I would have to tip the driver shaft at least the same amount as the 3 wood shaft. To me the same shaft tipped 1" would play stiffer in a glue in hosel vs in a tip?

> Thanks or chiming in

 

Whether it uses an adapter and is adjustable - or it's bonded (glued in directly) makes no difference (well, except that you have to include the adapter weight in with the head weight). It's all about weight and BBGM (bottom bore to ground measurement). Now not true for all OEM's but w/ TM the fairways tend to have a shorter BBGM - by about a 1/2" (but depends on the specific heads) so in that case will play a little stiffer if you only look at head weight differences.

 

[Howard_Jones]

Stuart is spot on, but let me add the small "conclusions" he left out, but they are there for the one who reads and understand....

 

When we try to make 2 clubs or shafts to play end feel the same, its really ONLY about the shaft left ABOVE the hosel.....

We do all that math with hosel specs to figure out, but what we really wants to know, is whats left ABOVE the hosel, since thats the only part of the shaft that can flex.

 

Imagine this scenario.

We want to build 2 drivers, both to 44.40" using the same shafts, and heads with the same head weight, but very different hosel specs...

Club head 1 has a BBGM of 1.0 inch, and a insert of 1.5 inch (total hosel = 2.50")

Club head 2 has a BBGM of 1.5 inch and a insert of 1.0 inch (total hosel is still 2.50")

To make this 2 club to play as the same club, we have to TIP trim the shaft for club head #2 with 0.5 inch.

Then the shaft above the hosel that can flex becomes the same between this 2 heads, and 1.0 inch as insert is all we need, so it does not matter how deep it is, its whats ABOVE the hosel that matters, but we do the numbers so we know how to compensate and make them equal ABOVE the hosel.

 

What happens if we DONT compensate for this?

Like Stuart already have written, the general guideline from most shaft companies is to tip trim 0.5" for each 10 grams added (driver to 3W or 3W to 5W), so if we dont, we soft or hard step equal to "1 Wood". Thats the way we should judge this, NOT by CPM measurements, then we mess it up since most graphite woods only respond with 1 CPM for each 2/8", so 0.5" only get us 2 CPM stronger, while 10 grams is above 5 SWP on a wood and by that a tad more than 5 CPMs....

We simply CANT compare flex slope on woods like we do on irons, so even when we use the same shaft model and flex for 2 woods like 3W and 5W and follow tip trim instructions, the 5W would measure as we went softer, but thats how this shafts is, and how it should be. If we think the CPM reader and the "chart on the wall" is the way to go, we would need to tip trim 1.25" between woods instead of 0.5" but that would NOT feel like the same flex at all, because the feel respond is progressive, the first half inch dont feel much stronger, while the next one does, even if the CPM reader say the progression is still only 2/8" for the second 0.5"....

 

That was the tip side of the shaft, now the BUTT....

If the head has a LOW BBGM like some woods have, we would use more of the shafts original butt section, and that part is ALWAYS the stiffest part, but in general we see that LOW launch profiles might go softer or "stay in flex" when the butt section becomes longer, while HIGH launch profiles most often go stronger when we go longer butt side.

 

That means if we use the same shaft for driver and 3W, and that 3W has a BBGM thats way lower that the driver, depending on shaft profile and how we want that 3W to play, we should consider NO tip trim because of the longer butt section, and exchange it for more tip length....thats often a good solution for players who want the little extra help to launch a 3W from the fairway since softer means more dynamic loft added at impact.

 

My own Woods is "soft-stepped" this way, and for this reason, so ive compensated vs driver hosel specs into woods, using a similar profile all the way, and 5 grams uncut shaft wgt plus 10 grams head wgt is a good rule of thumb for woods (total 15 grams pr inch)

(Grafalloy PL AXIS RED 61 grams - Grafalloy TOUR 65 grams- Project X Tour Issue (Blue) 70 grams)

 

 

[Hasone33]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> Stuart is spot on, but let me add the small "conclusions" he left out, but they are there for the one who reads and understand....

>

> When we try to make 2 clubs or shafts to play end feel the same, its really ONLY about the shaft left ABOVE the hosel.....

> We do all that math with hosel specs to figure out, but what we really wants to know, is whats left ABOVE the hosel, since thats the only part of the shaft that can flex.

>

> Imagine this scenario.

> We want to build 2 drivers, both to 44.40" using the same shafts, and heads with the same head weight, but very different hosel specs...

> Club head 1 has a BBGM of 1.0 inch, and a insert of 1.5 inch (total hosel = 2.50")

> Club head 2 has a BBGM of 1.5 inch and a insert of 1.0 inch (total hosel is still 2.50")

> To make this 2 club to play as the same club, we have to TIP trim the shaft for club head #2 with 0.5 inch.

> Then the shaft above the hosel that can flex becomes the same between this 2 heads, and 1.0 inch as insert is all we need, so it does not matter how deep it is, its whats ABOVE the hosel that matters, but we do the numbers so we know how to compensate and make them equal ABOVE the hosel.

>

> What happens if we DONT compensate for this?

> Like Stuart already have written, the general guideline from most shaft companies is to tip trim 0.5" for each 10 grams added (driver to 3W or 3W to 5W), so if we dont, we soft or hard step equal to "1 Wood". Thats the way we should judge this, NOT by CPM measurements, then we mess it up since most graphite woods only respond with 1 CPM for each 2/8", so 0.5" only get us 2 CPM stronger, while 10 grams is above 5 SWP on a wood and by that a tad more than 5 CPMs....

> We simply CANT compare flex slope on woods like we do on irons, so even when we use the same shaft model and flex for 2 woods like 3W and 5W and follow tip trim instructions, the 5W would measure as we went softer, but thats how this shafts is, and how it should be. If we think the CPM reader and the "chart on the wall" is the way to go, we would need to tip trim 1.25" between woods instead of 0.5" but that would NOT feel like the same flex at all, because the feel respond is progressive, the first half inch dont feel much stronger, while the next one does, even if the CPM reader say the progression is still only 2/8" for the second 0.5"....

>

> That was the tip side of the shaft, now the BUTT....

> If the head has a LOW BBGM like some woods have, we would use more of the shafts original butt section, and that part is ALWAYS the stiffest part, but in general we see that LOW launch profiles might go softer or "stay in flex" when the butt section becomes longer, while HIGH launch profiles most often go stronger when we go longer butt side.

>

> That means if we use the same shaft for driver and 3W, and that 3W has a BBGM thats way lower that the driver, depending on shaft profile and how we want that 3W to play, we should consider NO tip trim because of the longer butt section, and exchange it for more tip length....thats often a good solution for players who want the little extra help to launch a 3W from the fairway since softer means more dynamic loft added at impact.

>

> My own Woods is "soft-stepped" this way, and for this reason, so ive compensated vs driver hosel specs into woods, using a similar profile all the way, and 5 grams uncut shaft wgt plus 10 grams head wgt is a good rule of thumb for woods (total 15 grams pr inch)

> (Grafalloy PL AXIS RED 61 grams - Grafalloy TOUR 65 grams- Project X Tour Issue (Blue) 70 grams)

>

>

 

Thank you Howard for your detailed answer and information

[Kale_m]

> @Hasone33 said:

> > @Kale_m said:

> > Try a ad-di 6x tipped 1/2”

>

> Kale, I see you have the tensei pro orange tx which is on my radar for driver shaft.

> Do you feel if they are tipped same amount that they play equal in flex ?

> I was thinking a tensei pro orange 60tx from TM where they tip 1" would be perfect.

 

Tensei orange in a tx will play way more stout then a AD-DI