My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[BiggErn]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > If you mishit more than 1-3 iron shots per round then it’s pretty cut and dry.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's a standard the carded Tour guys do not even live up to. It's quite liberating to watch laggards at PGA events hit mid irons into greens, they miss a lot and by a lot. Heck Rory cannot get it done with wedge plenty of times. They make mistakes at a much higher average than 1-3. Tour GIR average is 13, theres guys below 10. Scratch amateur averages 9-10 on puny-muni. So I never sweat mis hits and get back on track much faster appreciating that reality.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Another irrational excuse. You can hit the ball solid and still hit it offline or have not go exactly where you wanted. I guess some people will just never comprehend.

> > >

> > > Apparently you do not comprehend basic math, statistics and reality.

> > >

> >

> > How so? Hitting the ball pure doesn’t mean you hit it exact where you want but it is definitely a prerequisite if using an MB. You can still hit bad shots and be a world class ball striker. I guess since you can hit bad shots all over the face then the club doesn’t matter. Right? Lol

>

> Hitting the ball exactly where you want it is why you're better off with an MB, but you would not know that because you hold on to this fantasy bullxxxx that every pass has to be nutted in a pea size sweet spot or you'll pee your pants as the ball falls in the bunker. Be my guest, follow your path. Good luck with that. I've had mine going another route.

 

Fore!

[mahonie]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @pinestreetgolf said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > "I just can't buy into the fact that an MB is hard to hit and yet a CB can be flushed with ease by the same player. They both have a center point (not talking sweetspot here) and if the center can be struck with ease on one... then why not the other? There is no doubt that there is a drop-off in distance with an MB on off center hits however it isn't an automatic or standard number, its player specific and in certain cases, there is virtually no difference in the drop-off from an MB mishit or a CB mishit. Unless of course the MB is not fit for the golfer then i imagine the drop-off most certainly would be more with the MB. I also stand with my comment that if a player mishits a blade iron then he most likely isn't striking his CB perfectly either, he just doesn't realize it because the club saves him."

> > > > >

> > > > > ... You seem to have this completely backwards. Golfers don't play CB's because they can hit the center with them but can't hit the center on an MB. They play them because they know they can't hit the center and absolutely realize the club head saves them. My miss is a little on the toe and a bad miss is even more on the toe. CB's make a huge difference in those strikes for me, especially in the long irons. I have days where I am striping it all round long and could use any iron with very little, if any difference. But I also have days where my swing is just a little off and ball striking is inconsistent and on those days my iron choice will most definitely make difference in my score.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not surprised you find a difference...a toe strike with a 790 is the same as a complete miss with an MB...boy they have a big head...almost as big as the J40 DPC ;-)

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yep! No offset, large head with tons of weight. I've always said they are in the top two iron designs of all time because they look like a blade at address but have all the forgiveness of a CB. The only other i've found is non-conforming (the Adams a4).

> > >

> > > j40 DPC = best iron in existence.

> > >

> > > IMO, IMO, IMO.

> > This is why I love golf...different people’s perspective is what makes the game so great. To you the J40 DPC looks like a blade...to me it looks like an ice hockey stick. In all honesty I would be intimidated putting that clubhead behind a ball as the ball would appear to be the size of a marble to me and I would have no confidence in swinging at it and getting it off the ground, particularly on the tight lies at my course. FWIW my feeling is that anyone who could score well with the J40 DPCs in the bag would find a set of MBs an absolute doddle to hit in comparison unless every shot was coming out of the toe.

> >

> Most of my club head speed comes from playing tennis at a high level in another life, so I love the big look of the DPC heads. And my miss is a toe miss virtually 95% of the time. I either spin out with my L hip or drop my R shoulder as a result of not getting forward enough fast enough. Both of those result in a toe hit (just one with toe closed and one with it open). I searched through a whole lot of iron sets before the DPC and a lot have tried to kick it out. I even (As documented by another thread) paid through the nose for that elusive actual-DPC (NOT just a j40 CB) 3 iron. All my other equipment is "meh" my DPCs are the way to go.

> We are obviously on opposite sides of this argument. My contention is that going out and finding that you like the feel of something and staying with it is fine but not optimal. You can figure out what your miss is using trackman, video and powder and then get the iron(s) that fit that miss. Chances are, for most of us, that will not be a blade.

> Its a spectrum. Its not all blades suck and all CBs rule. There could very easily be a blade better than a CB but if a high cap truly does the work he will come out with a CB/SGI answer way more often than a blade answer.

> The huge head on the DPCs fixes my overwhelmingly predominant miss. Doesn't do much for me occasionally thinning the short irons, though.

> Again, IMO.

>

If I explain my golf experience you may get a better picture of why I sit on this side of the fence. I figured out my miss well before the time of Trackman. I started playing golf at age 11 on pitch and putt courses with nothing more than an 8-iron and a putter. I would take a bag of balls to a nearby field and spend hours hitting shot after shot until I was proficient. After about 6 months of this I had a blade 3-iron as a birthday present and took it to the field and followed the same process. The odd club followed for Xmas and birthday and when I was 14ish my bag was something like 3-wood, 3-iron, 6-iron, 8-iron, Jigger (bump and run club), putter (all different brands). I played my first full 18 holes with this set up and shot 88. I didn’t own a wedge or driver until I was 17 and had my first full set 11 years after I had started playing. I was 26 when I had my first fitting and I was specifically looking to get a set of Ping Eye 2s but I couldn’t hit them properly pulling everything left. We tried several sets of similar GI irons with similar results. Sensing a lost sale, the Pro put a Wilson Staff Progressive in my hands as a last resort. Of course that was the answer and I was hitting them long and straight. I hadn’t even considered Staff as an option as I thought they were too much club for me but played them for 12 years. Now these were one of the first combo sets with CB 2-7 iron, blade 8-SW. Coming back to the game after a break, I played MacGregor M685s, Nike Split Cavities and Mac Pro-Cs pretty much to the same standard as the Staffs. When I had the opportunity to get the MP4s cheap I didn’t hesitate. I hadn’t really thought that much about it, but having a club in my hand that was so similar in profile to the 8-iron and 3-iron from my youth with similar levels of feel just filled me with confidence and I haven’t looked back. My misses with the MP4s are the same as with every other club I’ve played...I get steep and fat it or try to correct and end up thinning it. I naturally play a fade and very occasionally overdo it into a push right tending to a slice or I pull it straight left. My downswing starts with my right shoulder coming down which puts my swing out-to-in and my wrists ‘hold off’ to make everything functional...most of the time. I’ve had one lesson on how to draw a driver and how to pitch from 50 yards and those areas are still a work in progress. My iron game is better from 150-200 yards than it is from 50-150 yards having spent my formative years focusing between 3 and 8-iron distance. That’s it, the full story, full disclosure...take it for what it is.

 

PS played the Mac Pro-Cs yesterday and shot exactly the same as my MP4s last weekend!

[BIG STU]

> @Nard_S said:

> Regarding feel?

> Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.

> Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

>

>

 

I have not commented in this thread much because I have my opinions . I will add a couple of things to your comment. First off you are correct if one has a deft feel. Everyone's feel and sensitivity is different. I have a pretty deft feel so I agree with you. Also feel is a combination of shaft and grip also. You also left out another great forging Kyoei. I do not necessarily agree with you on forged versus cast CBs. You have known me long enough on here to know I am a longtime forged blade man mostly Mac VIP or Muirfield. Lately due to a back problem I have switched to a set of older Kyoei forged KZG CBs with graphite shafts. Now I love the feel of those just simply superb. Liked them so much that when my back healed up I did a trade deal for a set just like those with Rifle 5.5 steel shafts. Love the feel of both sets and I have owned and played Mizuno and Miura too which are great clubs. I can score just as good or bad with them as the Mac VIPs. I just like the feel. My miss is a toe hit and the design of the KZGs helps me a little there but a miss is a miss. All in all I think physics aside it is all in what looks and feels good to an individual player. A lot of it has to do with when one learned the game. When I learned the game all we had was forged blades unless you went with a cheaper set which may have been cast but still blades

MY .02 FWIW now I am outta here

[Nard_S]

> @BiggErn said:

> Fore!

LOl, you project too much.

[Nard_S]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > Regarding feel?

> > Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.

> > Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

> >

> >

>

> ....I do not necessarily agree with you on forged versus cast CBs. You have known me long enough on here to know I am a longtime forged blade man mostly Mac VIP or Muirfield. Lately due to a back problem I have switched to a set of older Kyoei forged KZG CBs with graphite shafts. Now I love the feel of those just simply superb. ....

 

Yeah, I don't doubt. I'm antiquated on forged CB's, but my experience back in the day was they lacked the punch of MB, so things stay KISS for me, I'm accepting of the idea they got it right but from what I've seen a lot of that is done by de-loft, drop spin, elastomaster tech. The JPX 900 Tour series is one of the few modern forged/blended clubs I would be happy to bag.

[chisag]

> @Nard_S said:

> _**Hitting the ball exactly where you want it is why you're better off with an MB**_, but you would not know that because you hold on to this fantasy bullxxxx that every pass has to be nutted in a pea size sweet spot or you'll pee your pants as the ball falls in the bunker. Be my guest, follow your path. Good luck with that. I've had mine going another route.

 

... This is a perfect example of why non MB players chime in on these threads. If this were true, every player on every tour would be playing MB's that _**hit the ball exactly where they want**_ because their livelihood depends on them getting a paycheck and iron accuracy is paramount to them making a living. Of course the complete opposite is true and the overwhelming choice for the PGA, LPGA and Champions Tour is some from of CB. I am equally accurate on well struck shots playing my MP33's, Forged Tours, P790's or P760's. However I am more accurate with my misses using all the others and not my MP33's. Ymmv, and you may certainly be more accurate with MB's, but you would be in the minority, not the majority.

[Bigmean]

I think that the livelyhood depends on it argument really doesn’t take into account that there is more money to be made in equipment contracts, and these guys know they are good enough to be good with about anything fitted to them that they can get comfy with. Look at what TM pays to non staffers to throw a wood in the bag...covers travel, it ain’t like it is a bad club anyway, etc. the “do this for a living” thing means the opposite of how it is often implied here.

 

I am not saying anyone would be playing different styles of heads or implying anything other than this fact that is the greatest issue at the heart of this whole debate.

 

Money is almost always the answer. Follow it. These guys are walking billboards and marketers FIRST and foremost. They know Without the market machine, there is no tour as it is known. Manufacturers need to move product and need to aggressively market and push boundaries in a sport with set legal limitations. Handicaps don’t change, but yet all can agree the modern ball has been an advancement beyond even today’s drivers. As an R7 owner, it still realistically holds its own against my newer more expensive and hyped tech drivers. It is not as good but close, close enough to not effect score. So guys not as down on blades in general may love to Ho like we all do but don’t see scores as bought I guess.

 

 

[Nard_S]

Pro's do not play retail CB's or MB's. The weighting and grind is different, I have 3 sets that prove me that. Spieth & Bubba do not have standard retail grinds, they have grinds that are more MB in nature with higher COG and less offset. The "most pro's play CB" thesis is highly flawed.

[chisag]

... So a sole grind and a higher CG with less offset makes a perimeter weighted CB not a CB? Again more misdirection as I doubt anyone on this board thinks any Pro on any Tour plays off the rack CB's. I keep waiting for a duo of Jehovah Witness MB Advocates to show up to my door with a pamphlet on MB's and why I should join the cult.

 

 

[chisag]

... Bigmean I have talked to quite a few Tour Reps and unless a player signs a specific contract to play a specific club, which is very rare these days, they sign to play any club by that OEM. As explained to me by the Titleist VP at the PGA Show ... "We want our players to feel comfortable with their clubs. As long as it is a Titleist, that is all that matters. Worse case scenario for us is a player is forced to use our latest club and falls in the ratings and plays poorly. Sure, we like it when they put our new clubs in their bag and we always have them demo them, but if they are more comfortable with an older driver, wood, hybrid or iron, that is what we want them playing. It is about winning, which is good for them and good for us." This is also true for ball contracts as many Pro's stock up on a ball they love even of it is 1 or 2 generations earlier.

 

... Of course OEM's have this down for their ads anyway. An ad with a picture of Rory winning and an insert for P790's. They don't say Rory used P790's but they don't say he used MB's either. They just promote their latest product. Sure we occasionally see Tiger, Rory or Justin with their actual MB's, but again that is the exception nor the rule.

[mahonie]

> @chisag said:

> ... Bigmean I have talked to quite a few Tour Reps and unless a player signs a specific contract to play a specific club, which is very rare these days, they sign to play any club by that OEM. As explained to me by the Titleist VP at the PGA Show ... "We want our players to feel comfortable with their clubs. As long as it is a Titleist, that is all that matters. Worse case scenario for us is a player is forced to use our latest club and falls in the ratings and plays poorly. Sure, we like it when they put our new clubs in their bag and we always have them demo them, but if they are more comfortable with an older driver, wood, hybrid or iron, that is what we want them playing. It is about winning, which is good for them and good for us." This is also true for ball contracts as many Pro's stock up on a ball they love even of it is 1 or 2 generations earlier.

>

> ... Of course OEM's have this down for their ads anyway. An ad with a picture of Rory winning and an insert for P790's. They don't say Rory used P790's but they don't say he used MB's either. They just promote their latest product. Sure we occasionally see Tiger, Rory or Justin with their actual MB's, but again that is the exception nor the rule.

 

I spent a bit of time with a well-connected club builder a few years ago. We got to talking about the clubs pros use and he let me in on a couple of ‘secrets.’ First one was that Tiger only has his clubs made personally by Miura-san. I said I had some doubt about that so he pulled out a photograph of Tiger shaking hands with Miura-san as he accepted a club. Not definitive proof but probably close enough to suggest that there is some truth in it. He backed this up by showing me a personal letter to him from Mr Miura which confirmed that they were indeed acquainted and friends.

 

The second one was that Ernie Els had played the same muscle back all of his career. This was about the time that Els had signed with Adams and was ‘contracted’ to play the XTD line of irons. The club builder insisted that Els owned the dies for his Lynx MBs and had played that iron design even when he was at TM. Anecdotal I know, but the club builder has a very good reputation and I have no reason to doubt him.

[Nard_S]

> @chisag said:

> ... So a sole grind and a higher CG with less offset makes a perimeter weighted CB not a CB? Again more misdirection as I doubt anyone on this board thinks any Pro on any Tour plays off the rack CB's. I keep waiting for a duo of Jehovah Witness MB Advocates to show up to my door with a pamphlet on MB's and why I should join the cult.

>

>

Pretty rich disclaimer, there. Misdirection? On WRX? How can that ever happen?

When you raise the COG, thin the sole, lower offset, you end up with a COG that is closer to axis of shaft rotation. That is the fundamental difference between GI and traditional, a COG closer to face and hosel in at least 2 planes of depth and height. It raises and put more spin control in players' hands and lowers effective launch. So doing that to a "CB" makes them more "blade like" in performance. That's what Bubba and Spieth do, make their "GI CB" more blade like.

Pot calling the kettle black on the "crazy cult" comment btw.

[chisag]

... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

[dmeeksDC]

> @chisag said:

> ... I keep waiting for a duo of Jehovah Witness MB Advocates to show up to my door with a pamphlet on MB's and why I should join the cult.

>

>

 

If this happens at my house, I would for the first time invite them in and at least hear them out.

 

 

[BIG STU]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > Regarding feel?

> > > Forged CB's pale to traditional MB. If I'm going CB I'll stick with cast. Someone once commented that forged CB is the worst of both. I agree.

> > > Saying you cannot tell the difference between cast or forged Endo or Mizuno or Miura or Hoffman is like saying all coffee tastes the same.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > ....I do not necessarily agree with you on forged versus cast CBs. You have known me long enough on here to know I am a longtime forged blade man mostly Mac VIP or Muirfield. Lately due to a back problem I have switched to a set of older Kyoei forged KZG CBs with graphite shafts. Now I love the feel of those just simply superb. ....

>

> Yeah, I don't doubt. I'm antiquated on forged CB's, but my experience back in the day was they lacked the punch of MB, so things stay KISS for me, I'm accepting of the idea they got it right but from what I've seen a lot of that is done by de-loft, drop spin, elastomaster tech. The JPX 900 Tour series is one of the few modern forged/blended clubs I would be happy to bag.

 

The reason I like those forged KZGs is they are the older ones the first generation and they are Kyoei forged too. Stock those are the same lofts as what I set up all my Mac blades starting with the PW @ 47*. Played 9 holes with a gentleman last Saturday in his mid 50s pretty darn good player. He had always played Mp 32s or 33s. Said he had a heart attack 2 years ago and did not practice or play as much as he used to. Ended up buying a new set of JPX 900s and he loves them. FTR those KZGs are actually the only forged CBs I have ever liked. I tried quite a few and never liked the feel of them. I had to get used to the somewhat longer blade from the 7 iron up but I did. Course that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that I will ever give up entirely playing my old Mac or Hogan blades

[BIG STU]

> @chisag said:

> ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

 

ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

[chisag]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @chisag said:

> > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

>

> ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

 

... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

[revanant]

> @chisag said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> >

> > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

>

> ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

 

Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

 

$50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

 

There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

 

Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

[BiggErn]

> @revanant said:

> > @chisag said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> > >

> > > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

> >

> > ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

>

> Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

>

> $50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

> Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

>

> There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

>

> Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

 

Meh. What are “better” shots? I only ask because if you don’t hit an MB perfectly I find that an unreasonable assessment. MBs are only beneficial if you hit the ball dead solid almost exclusively aside from the extreme rare bad strike. This has nothing to do with direction only contact which is kinda a prerequisite to hitting a good shot. You’re not gonna mishit an MB and getting a better shot unless your ball dribbles 50 yards and comes up short of the water hazard vs in the hazard. I also have a hard time thinking that anyone is gonna focus differently based on a club they use because you know....golf is hard. No club has ever inspired confidence to me until after I’ve hit it. Plenty of clubs I liked the look of and didn’t hit particularly well.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> > > >

> > > > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

> > >

> > > ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

> >

> > Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

> >

> > $50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

> > Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

> >

> > There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

> >

> > Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

>

> Meh. What are “better” shots? I only ask because if you don’t hit an MB perfectly I find that an unreasonable assessment. MBs are only beneficial if you hit the ball dead solid almost exclusively aside from the extreme rare bad strike. This has nothing to do with direction only contact which is kinda a prerequisite to hitting a good shot. You’re not gonna mishit an MB and getting a better shot unless your ball dribbles 50 yards and comes up short of the water hazard vs in the hazard. I also have a hard time thinking that anyone is gonna focus differently based on a club they use because you know....golf is hard. No club has ever inspired confidence to me until after I’ve hit it. Plenty of clubs I liked the look of and didn’t hit particularly well.

 

In fairness, he's claiming something slightly different. Ie he hits the blade "good"(whatever that is) 7 out if 10 shots and the other club at some lower frequency.

 

On average, I'm not sure this is really true. However, it may be more frequent than most people think.

 

Best example I can give is that I recently tried a 5H in place of my 5 iron. The 5H is theoretically easier to hit. It does produce better results in certain situations (mainly forced carries or shots to elevated greens and probably out of bad lies in the rough). However, off the fairway or tee on a par 3 the results were no better and actually slightly worse. Most people around my level would probably scoff at a 5H or 6H claiming they can hit the comparable irons good enough but it's actually the same fundamental argument (if you aren't flushing it nearly every time get the more forgiving club).

 

The reasonably bad swings will always have worse results with a less forgiving club. I guess the question is whether you can raise the middle portion of the distribution based on certain features of a club that are more appealing to the user (even if they are less forgiving).

[nsxguy]

> @revanant said:

> > @chisag said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> > >

> > > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

> >

> > ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

>

> Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

>

> $50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

> Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

>

> There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

>

> Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

 

$50 for an old set of blades is a counterpoint to WHAT exactly ? Doesn't look like anything you quoted.

 

Or are you just intent on re-lighting the fire ?

[BiggErn]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> > > >

> > > > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

> > >

> > > ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

> >

> > Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

> >

> > $50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

> > Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

> >

> > There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

> >

> > Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

>

> $50 for an old set of blades is a counterpoint to WHAT exactly ? Doesn't look like anything you quoted.

>

> Or are you just intent on re-lighting the fire ?

 

He must be assuming some people commenting here have never hit them before.

[BMC]

On a tee or a nice plush fairway I might hit a GI club more consistent. In any other situation I hit an MB better. I also hit the ball very high. MBs allow me to hit the ball lower. Tight lies or rough, the MB wins. YMMV.

[Pepperturbo]

> @dpb5031 said:

 

> IMHO, the sweet feel of a perfectly struck true MB blade is because with a true MB design, the majority of the clubs mass is located directly behind the sweet spot, not because of the manufacturing process (forged v. cast). Striking it dead solid perfect with an MB blade provides certain unique acoustics and minimal vibration inherent in this design. The sensation is soft in your hands, and to your ears the sound is muted. Anytime you remove the mass from behind the sweet spot and spread it out to the perimeter, you lose that. So it's no surprise that when Ping first introduced investment cast perimeter weighted irons, they did not provide the same soft, vibration dampening sensation on perfectly struck shots the way an MB blade would (all of which were forged at the time). So, I think this is what initially got us heading down the path toward the belief that forged irons are inherently softer than cast.

>

> To further substantiate my point, why do MB blades sting your freakin' hands so bad when you miss one? I mean, they're forged right? If forging the metal makes it soft, it should feel soft from a relative perspective no matter where you strike it, no? If it was the manufacturing process (forging), or even the relative softness of the metal itself, shouldn't they still feel softer than their investment cast and perimeter weighted counterparts? Hint: they don't! It's because of the instability of the design that miss hits with a blade feel awful and provide unpleasing vibration and audible feedback. (which ironically and as discussed, some folks find helpful in trying to improve their ball striking)

>

> Furthermore, Mizuno, undoubtedly the king of producing forged irons and a company that has even gone so far as to advertise and market the virtues of the soft feel of their irons due to their grain-flow forging process, puts inserts and badges made of various alloys, elastomers, or thermoplastics behind the sweet spot of many of their thinner faced forged, but perimeter weighted offerings to dampen vibration and improve acoustics. (see the JPX 900/919 forged, MP25s, etc.). Why are those badges and inserts necessary. Shouldn't the fact that they're forged provide that soft feel by itself?

>

> Now don't get me wrong, I love Mizunos and think they make great products and their irons do feel sweet when struck purely, as do many of the JDM manufacturers. The JDM market has bought into this entire forging myth hook, line , and sinker...even more so than in the rest of the world. Almost all Pings are cast with the exception of a some limited product runs that were made largely to satisfy a market niche. In fact, years ago Ping engineers created irons of identical design, one forged, the other cast. Without knowing which was which, not a single one of their Tour pros on staff could tell the difference!

>

> And yes, my Ping i200s are cast, like 99% of Pings. They have some sort of elastomer badge/insert behind the sweet spot to improve feel and acoustics, and to me feel just about as good as a perimeter weighted player's CB iron can feel. They're also more durable than the similar forged offerings of other manufacturers, so that's a bonus as the grooves stay in shape longer and they don't sustain all of that bag chatter.

>

> Ping has an entire stable of elite Touring professionals playing their investment cast irons, yet everywhere you look on these forums there are recreational players who absolutely must own forged irons for the soft feel...lol! As you mentioned, Vokey wedges are cast (as are Cleveland and Ping), yet they remain the most popular on Tour.

 

Correct, most of the head weight of MB is directly behind the ball, while peripheral to the sweet spot weight is decreased to the edge. Also, the feel of MB forged heads is influenced by various manufacturing techniques that the designer wants influencing impact. Consequently, when a shot is mishit, I call it an off-center "clank", it's affected by hitting on the edge of the heavyweight sweet spot and peripheral lightweight area so vibration is magnified. Forged or cast head material has no bearing on dispersion or how a mishit feels.

 

I started the game with Ping irons and moved to forged Mizuno blades than to MacGregor custom MB's, original Titleist 670MB's, original Callaway X-Forged and now play forged Titleist 716CB's. Every aspect of golf is subjective, and this subject is no different. Makes a person wonder why so few tour players carry Cleveland or Ping CB wedges.

 

As I have experienced them, cast heads like wide-sole i200 Ping are more forgiving than my above CB's due to the wide-sole, head specs in conjunction with full perimeter cavity weighting all of which makes the size of the sweet spot seem larger and offsets the mishit so I got no vibration. Difference between i200 and my 716CB is the latter has a smaller head, large bulging weight behind the sweet spot, not as much perimeter weighting, narrower sole and same head specs as 716MB's, making them comparatively more challenging to hit and not nearly as forgiving.

 

That said, who plays what on tour means nothing to most amateurs, least of all, me. A helluva lot of Titleist sponsored players carrying AP2's but few carry CB716/718's. As you know there are reasons for that. Over the years a number of friends that are super CB/Ping/Mizuno diehard users have tried hitting my irons. Notwithstanding the nature of PX 6.0 and C-Taper shafts that I play, most of them didn't hit very good shots. IMO they are too comfortable with head forgiveness. Would a pro have the same problem, maybe, maybe not. That's a question we amateurs will never have the answer to. Have a good day.

[revanant]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> > > > >

> > > > > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

> > > >

> > > > ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

> > >

> > > Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

> > >

> > > $50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

> > > Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

> > >

> > > There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

> > >

> > > Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

> >

> > Meh. What are “better” shots? I only ask because if you don’t hit an MB perfectly I find that an unreasonable assessment. MBs are only beneficial if you hit the ball dead solid almost exclusively aside from the extreme rare bad strike. This has nothing to do with direction only contact which is kinda a prerequisite to hitting a good shot. You’re not gonna mishit an MB and getting a better shot unless your ball dribbles 50 yards and comes up short of the water hazard vs in the hazard. I also have a hard time thinking that anyone is gonna focus differently based on a club they use because you know....golf is hard. No club has ever inspired confidence to me until after I’ve hit it. Plenty of clubs I liked the look of and didn’t hit particularly well.

>

> **In fairness, he's claiming something slightly different. Ie he hits the blade "good"(whatever that is) 7 out if 10 shots and the other club at some lower frequency.**

>

> On average, I'm not sure this is really true. However, it may be more frequent than most people think.

>

> Best example I can give is that I recently tried a 5H in place of my 5 iron. The 5H is theoretically easier to hit. It does produce better results in certain situations (mainly forced carries or shots to elevated greens and probably out of bad lies in the rough). However, off the fairway or tee on a par 3 the results were no better and actually slightly worse. Most people around my level would probably scoff at a 5H or 6H claiming they can hit the comparable irons good enough but it's actually the same fundamental argument (if you aren't flushing it nearly every time get the more forgiving club).

>

> The reasonably bad swings will always have worse results with a less forgiving club. ** I guess the question is whether you can raise the middle portion of the distribution based on certain features of a club that are more appealing to the user (even if they are less forgiving).

**

Thanks--yeah, this is exactly what I'm seeing. I know it goes against common reasoning--I should be able to hit any iron equally as well as any other for swing path and contact. But practically, I find an hour with my less forgiving irons cleans up my contact and swing. I put up that set of 50 swings, without deleting a single bad swing, and it's representative of what I find every time I hit the sim. I make clunkier contact with my AP1s, whereas my less forgiving irons help me adjust over the session such that, by the end, I'm hitting closer to center and getting nice ball flight and carry. I keep testing it, and it keeps holding up. If it stops being true, then I have no problem rebagging my AP1s. But for now, even though logically I should be able to put an equally good swing on the ball regardless of the iron I'm holding, I find I swing better with my less forgiving irons, even when I try to take the same amount of care and attention with both my AP1s and my less forgiving irons.

 

This is also why I take issue with @BiggErn when he suggests that a golfer needs perfect contact to play blades. I am making good contact with the blades, but I'm not perfect. However, my results from my swings are pretty good, and often exceed my results from the AP1s. While it's possible I'm making wildly different swings with the two irons and exponentially better contact with the blades--that's not what I actually experience when I hit the range. Instead, I'm making a similar swing, with an in-to-out swingpath and slightly open clubface, but find that this produces a draw with my MP-4s and a straighter push with the AP1s. It's not every time, and we don't need to rehash the thread, but it's why I don't think the hyperbole is helpful. I'm hitting relatively close to center, but my non-pure shots are still coming out pretty good.

 

> @nsxguy said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > ... Nard I don't care what you or anyone else plays. I am not trying to convert anyone to any club. All hybrid, SGI, GI, Players or MB's. And I am most certainly not trying to talk anyone out of playing MB's. Whatever works for you. But as I have said before to the MB Jehovah Witness cult members, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me it is raining.

> > > >

> > > > ROTFLMAO--- We ain't that bad are we? And yeah I am like you I do not care what anyone else plays--- I have always been an advocate of play what makes you happy and what fits your game

> > >

> > > ... Most MB players that post here have an open mind and you have always been an equipment traditionalist and I have always enjoyed your posts. I don't believe I have ever read a post of yours that advocated a mid or high index player would be better off playing MB's. It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron. Again, most do not do this and I love the posts of MB lovers that admit they might even shoot a lower score with a players CB, but they love their MB's and have no desire to change. That's why we are on golf forums, to share our love of the game and the equipment we play.

> >

> > Here's the counter-point--https://www.globalgolf.com/golf-clubs/1002042-wilson-staff-fg-17-iron-set/used/.

> >

> > $50 for a used set of classic blades (2-9). Shafts are a mystery, condition is unknown, but free returns if they turn out to not be worth <$7 per iron.

> > Any golfer should be able to take this set or something similar to the range, hit a few balls, and decide for themselves if these irons are helpful to their enjoyment and improvement, or should be returned.

> >

> > There are some folks, like me, who may find they swing better and produce better shots with a less forgiving iron in hand. There are others who will take a few swings, not find the irons particularly helpful or confidence inspiring, and immediately return them. And there are folks who will simply enjoy playing the irons because they're fun and enjoyable, and treat playing them on weekends as a fun change of pace from a usual set. At $50, why not try them out, regardless of handicap?

> >

> > Worst case, you return them for free. Best case, they increase your enjoyment of golf. I can't tell how it will turn out, but the advice seems pretty low risk.

>

> $50 for an old set of blades is a counterpoint to WHAT exactly ? Doesn't look like anything you quoted.

>

> Or are you just intent on re-lighting the fire ?

 

It was a counterpoint to this point: "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, **it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about** and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron." People may read this thread without posting, both now and in the future. I know I definitely find myself visiting older threads--I've found helpful stuff on my Ping Redwood putter from threads that are 8-10 years old.

 

I grant that a random golfer's mileage may vary in hitting blades, and I will never see that person's swing. But there are very cheap ways for that random/future person to test this theory on their own, without any real risk, and make up their own mind. : )

[nsxguy]

 

> > @nsxguy said:

 

> > $50 for an old set of blades is a counterpoint to WHAT exactly ? Doesn't look like anything you quoted.

> >

> > Or are you just intent on re-lighting the fire ?

>

> It was a counterpoint to this point: "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, **it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about** and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron." People may read this thread without posting, both now and in the future. I know I definitely find myself visiting older threads--I've found helpful stuff on my Ping Redwood putter from threads that are 8-10 years old.

>

> I grant that a random golfer's mileage may vary in hitting blades, and I will never see that person's swing. But there are very cheap ways for that random/future person to test this theory on their own, without any real risk, and make up their own mind. : )

 

So a link to an ad for a $50 set of old blades is a counterpoint to "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about" ???

 

OK, Got it. LMAO

 

[Muirfield Willie]

Page 34, and we've accomplished nothing.

[bodhi555]

> @nsxguy said:

>

> > > @nsxguy said:

>

> > > $50 for an old set of blades is a counterpoint to WHAT exactly ? Doesn't look like anything you quoted.

> > >

> > > Or are you just intent on re-lighting the fire ?

> >

> > It was a counterpoint to this point: "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, **it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about** and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron." People may read this thread without posting, both now and in the future. I know I definitely find myself visiting older threads--I've found helpful stuff on my Ping Redwood putter from threads that are 8-10 years old.

> >

> > I grant that a random golfer's mileage may vary in hitting blades, and I will never see that person's swing. But there are very cheap ways for that random/future person to test this theory on their own, without any real risk, and make up their own mind. : )

>

> So a link to an ad for a $50 set of old blades is a counterpoint to "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about" ???

>

> OK, Got it. LMAO

>

 

Even if it isn't a counterpoint, I'm not entirely sure what the issue is with saying "try them and see how you get on"? They are golf clubs with the weight in a slightly different position than your shovels - it's hardly suggesting people try Crystal Meth now is it?

[bodhi555]

> @"Muirfield Willie" said:

> Page 34, and we've accomplished nothing.

 

Speak for yourself. In 34 pages I've bought a CB 4 iron, tried it extensively, realised it's no easier to hit than my MB 4 iron, and determined that half the conversation are chatting a load of old bollocks :)

[nsxguy]

> @bodhi555 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> >

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> >

> > > > $50 for an old set of blades is a counterpoint to WHAT exactly ? Doesn't look like anything you quoted.

> > > >

> > > > Or are you just intent on re-lighting the fire ?

> > >

> > > It was a counterpoint to this point: "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, **it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about** and maintaining MB's are as forgiving as any other iron." People may read this thread without posting, both now and in the future. I know I definitely find myself visiting older threads--I've found helpful stuff on my Ping Redwood putter from threads that are 8-10 years old.

> > >

> > > I grant that a random golfer's mileage may vary in hitting blades, and I will never see that person's swing. But there are very cheap ways for that random/future person to test this theory on their own, without any real risk, and make up their own mind. : )

> >

> > So a link to an ad for a $50 set of old blades is a counterpoint to "It is never what anyone plays that annoys so many on WRX, it is recommending MB's to players they know nothing about" ???

> >

> > OK, Got it. LMAO

> >

>

> Even if it isn't a counterpoint, I'm not entirely sure what the issue is with saying "try them and see how you get on"? They are golf clubs with the weight in a slightly different position than your shovels - it's hardly suggesting people try Crystal Meth now is it?

 

Is THAT what he meant ? I should buy a set of cheap baldes and try them ?!?!?! LMAO

 

Goodness gracious. Does he, or YOU for that matter, think any experienced player, who plays some form of CB and offers the POV they are better for the higher handicap players scores, HASN'T tried MBs ??? He just drank the Kool Aid ???