It's 2019. How Will the USGA Mess Up This Year's US Open?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,190Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @HitEmTrue said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @HitEmTrue said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Then I respectfully have to ask how on earth you approve of the cauliflower greens at chambers bay , or the or the Dustin Johnson debacle at Oakmont or their legitimate attempt in day 2-3 to bake the greens a shinnecock. ? They had 10 years to get it right at chambers. And the DJ incident is an irrefutable embarrassment in management. You don’t take a walking official and call him a liar and overrule him. Not when every player in that group agrees with the official. How do you reconcile those incidents ?

    Would have worked out a little better for everyone if DJ had told the official that he HAD grounded the putter near the ball, instead of saying otherwise.

    How so ? They used super slow mo gnat cam view to decide it. So why he said doesn’t really matter.

    By changing the ruling, they didn't call the walking referee a liar. DJ told the ref that he had not grounded the putter near the ball...and the walking referee used that incorrect information to make his ruling. At least that is my recollection.

    Actually, it may have been more complicated than that. The ref may have asked DJ if he had addressed the ball, rather than asking more questions about grounding the putter near the ball. Either way, the ref made his decision not knowing all the facts.

    Right but he made it knowing all the facts that his eyes could tell him by watching. Same by DJ and his playing partners. They used slow high def video to call them out. Which at the time I asked “ why have a walking official and why ask the player “? You aren’t going to use their interpretation then why ask ?

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  • rangersgoalierangersgoalie Members  1942WRX Points: 427Posts: 1,942 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    Since a lot of you guys seem to want to harass the USGA over course setups, and want to pick on Mike Davis personally, I thought that I would push back and say that Mike Davis is no longer leading the course setups for the USGA, including the 2019 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. John Bodenhamer is now the senior managing director of championships. Facts, you know?
    And moreover, I want to say that while the USGA (rightly) wants to conduct its national championships on a mix of great historic championship courses as well as public courses of both historic and modern design, the ongoing battle is defending courses from equipment technology and particularly golf ball performance in the Pro V era.
    I am hopeful that the USGA will do something about it in the near future, and when that happens, and if Acushnet threatens litigation, I will be even more strongly supportive of the USGA.
    Edit: I obviously stepped away from the computer as the post immediately above mine, by BlackDiamondPar5, was going up. I'm not sure if I could have been more successfully sarcastic if I tried.

    You really think Mr Mike “ come sit on my knee boys and I’ll teach you something “ Davis isn’t still pulling the strings ? Come on. If he’s on property he’s calling the shots. A guy like that can’t give up control. He’s just hired a scape goat.

    Ask yourself this. And answer it please. Why do we never hear of a course setup being crazy or out of control for the open. For the pga or for the masters ( save the bunker fiasco at whistling straights ) ? Why do people just pick on the USga ? Why not the pga and R and A too ? Has to be a reason.

    Oh I'll happily take that on!
    1. The Open Championship is played on historic links courses whose designs have been proven by a century or more of play. It is, and should be, easy to set them up for championship play. Except that it isn't, quite. You see, they are all threatened by the distances produced by modern golf equipment technology. And so changes are made to them, often with extreme criticism. The Road Hole at The Old Course is a good example.
    2. And the expectations for the Open are entirely different. The grass can be brown, or tan, or purple and it is what the Scots expect. Not what an American tv audience expects.
    3. As for the PGA Championship, I think it is funny how often it is played on sometime-U.S. Open courses (Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot, etc.,) with similar conditions and scoring (yes, it is often just a bit lower-scoring), and there are fewer complaints from the general sports writing and general sports-interest crowd. I think it is because some people have chosen the USGA to pick on, and the PGA Championship, while a major, is just not as attention-grabbing as our one acknowledged national championship conducted by one of golf's ruling bodies. I think a lot of sports writers love to play the class-warfare anti-USGA angle.
    Oh and I want to add one thing about the PGA Championship; remember the incident with Mr. D. Johnson at Whistling Straits? It was poor setup and administration that led to that penalty. Purely on the PGA of America.
    4. The Masters is conducted on a single course every year in circumstances that are largely unrealistic for any other course or championship. The course is closed to all play for a significant part of the year. And yet; the Masters Tournament Committee is and always has been populated by USGA veterans. And now the Chairman of Augusta National is Fred Ridley - former USGA President, Executive Committee member and Nominating Committee (the real power in the USGA) member who was instrumental in nominating Mike Davis to the position of Executive Director of the USGA.

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    Ask any tour player if they’d like to be one shot a round better! :)

    Posted:
  • Brass_BullseyeBrass_Bullseye BrassBullseye Members  378WRX Points: 105Handicap: 9Posts: 378 Greens
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    On -, @rangersgoalie said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    Since a lot of you guys seem to want to harass the USGA over course setups, and want to pick on Mike Davis personally, I thought that I would push back and say that Mike Davis is no longer leading the course setups for the USGA, including the 2019 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. John Bodenhamer is now the senior managing director of championships. Facts, you know?
    And moreover, I want to say that while the USGA (rightly) wants to conduct its national championships on a mix of great historic championship courses as well as public courses of both historic and modern design, the ongoing battle is defending courses from equipment technology and particularly golf ball performance in the Pro V era.
    I am hopeful that the USGA will do something about it in the near future, and when that happens, and if Acushnet threatens litigation, I will be even more strongly supportive of the USGA.
    Edit: I obviously stepped away from the computer as the post immediately above mine, by BlackDiamondPar5, was going up. I'm not sure if I could have been more successfully sarcastic if I tried.

    You really think Mr Mike “ come sit on my knee boys and I’ll teach you something “ Davis isn’t still pulling the strings ? Come on. If he’s on property he’s calling the shots. A guy like that can’t give up control. He’s just hired a scape goat.

    Ask yourself this. And answer it please. Why do we never hear of a course setup being crazy or out of control for the open. For the pga or for the masters ( save the bunker fiasco at whistling straights ) ? Why do people just pick on the USga ? Why not the pga and R and A too ? Has to be a reason.

    Oh I'll happily take that on!
    1. The Open Championship is played on historic links courses whose designs have been proven by a century or more of play. It is, and should be, easy to set them up for championship play. Except that it isn't, quite. You see, they are all threatened by the distances produced by modern golf equipment technology. And so changes are made to them, often with extreme criticism. The Road Hole at The Old Course is a good example.
    2. And the expectations for the Open are entirely different. The grass can be brown, or tan, or purple and it is what the Scots expect. Not what an American tv audience expects.
    3. As for the PGA Championship, I think it is funny how often it is played on sometime-U.S. Open courses (Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot, etc.,) with similar conditions and scoring (yes, it is often just a bit lower-scoring), and there are fewer complaints from the general sports writing and general sports-interest crowd. I think it is because some people have chosen the USGA to pick on, and the PGA Championship, while a major, is just not as attention-grabbing as our one acknowledged national championship conducted by one of golf's ruling bodies. I think a lot of sports writers love to play the class-warfare anti-USGA angle.
    Oh and I want to add one thing about the PGA Championship; remember the incident with Mr. D. Johnson at Whistling Straits? It was poor setup and administration that led to that penalty. Purely on the PGA of America.
    4. The Masters is conducted on a single course every year in circumstances that are largely unrealistic for any other course or championship. The course is closed to all play for a significant part of the year. And yet; the Masters Tournament Committee is and always has been populated by USGA veterans. And now the Chairman of Augusta National is Fred Ridley - former USGA President, Executive Committee member and Nominating Committee (the real power in the USGA) member who was instrumental in nominating Mike Davis to the position of Executive Director of the USGA.

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    Ask any tour player if they’d like to be one shot a round better! :)

    I get your point, but the way everyone dogs on the USGA, you'd think the winning score was +4 every year.

    Posted:
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  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members  2794WRX Points: 1,087Posts: 2,794 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #95

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @rangersgoalie said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    Since a lot of you guys seem to want to harass the USGA over course setups, and want to pick on Mike Davis personally, I thought that I would push back and say that Mike Davis is no longer leading the course setups for the USGA, including the 2019 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. John Bodenhamer is now the senior managing director of championships. Facts, you know?
    And moreover, I want to say that while the USGA (rightly) wants to conduct its national championships on a mix of great historic championship courses as well as public courses of both historic and modern design, the ongoing battle is defending courses from equipment technology and particularly golf ball performance in the Pro V era.
    I am hopeful that the USGA will do something about it in the near future, and when that happens, and if Acushnet threatens litigation, I will be even more strongly supportive of the USGA.
    Edit: I obviously stepped away from the computer as the post immediately above mine, by BlackDiamondPar5, was going up. I'm not sure if I could have been more successfully sarcastic if I tried.

    You really think Mr Mike “ come sit on my knee boys and I’ll teach you something “ Davis isn’t still pulling the strings ? Come on. If he’s on property he’s calling the shots. A guy like that can’t give up control. He’s just hired a scape goat.

    Ask yourself this. And answer it please. Why do we never hear of a course setup being crazy or out of control for the open. For the pga or for the masters ( save the bunker fiasco at whistling straights ) ? Why do people just pick on the USga ? Why not the pga and R and A too ? Has to be a reason.

    Oh I'll happily take that on!
    1. The Open Championship is played on historic links courses whose designs have been proven by a century or more of play. It is, and should be, easy to set them up for championship play. Except that it isn't, quite. You see, they are all threatened by the distances produced by modern golf equipment technology. And so changes are made to them, often with extreme criticism. The Road Hole at The Old Course is a good example.
    2. And the expectations for the Open are entirely different. The grass can be brown, or tan, or purple and it is what the Scots expect. Not what an American tv audience expects.
    3. As for the PGA Championship, I think it is funny how often it is played on sometime-U.S. Open courses (Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot, etc.,) with similar conditions and scoring (yes, it is often just a bit lower-scoring), and there are fewer complaints from the general sports writing and general sports-interest crowd. I think it is because some people have chosen the USGA to pick on, and the PGA Championship, while a major, is just not as attention-grabbing as our one acknowledged national championship conducted by one of golf's ruling bodies. I think a lot of sports writers love to play the class-warfare anti-USGA angle.
    Oh and I want to add one thing about the PGA Championship; remember the incident with Mr. D. Johnson at Whistling Straits? It was poor setup and administration that led to that penalty. Purely on the PGA of America.
    4. The Masters is conducted on a single course every year in circumstances that are largely unrealistic for any other course or championship. The course is closed to all play for a significant part of the year. And yet; the Masters Tournament Committee is and always has been populated by USGA veterans. And now the Chairman of Augusta National is Fred Ridley - former USGA President, Executive Committee member and Nominating Committee (the real power in the USGA) member who was instrumental in nominating Mike Davis to the position of Executive Director of the USGA.

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    Ask any tour player if they’d like to be one shot a round better! :)

    I get your point, but the way everyone dogs on the USGA, you'd think the winning score was +4 every year.

    Did you happen to run the analysis for 'field stroke average' between the two? That would be interesting.

    Posted:
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  • Brass_BullseyeBrass_Bullseye BrassBullseye Members  378WRX Points: 105Handicap: 9Posts: 378 Greens
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    On -, @Ashley Schaeffer said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @rangersgoalie said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    Since a lot of you guys seem to want to harass the USGA over course setups, and want to pick on Mike Davis personally, I thought that I would push back and say that Mike Davis is no longer leading the course setups for the USGA, including the 2019 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. John Bodenhamer is now the senior managing director of championships. Facts, you know?
    And moreover, I want to say that while the USGA (rightly) wants to conduct its national championships on a mix of great historic championship courses as well as public courses of both historic and modern design, the ongoing battle is defending courses from equipment technology and particularly golf ball performance in the Pro V era.
    I am hopeful that the USGA will do something about it in the near future, and when that happens, and if Acushnet threatens litigation, I will be even more strongly supportive of the USGA.
    Edit: I obviously stepped away from the computer as the post immediately above mine, by BlackDiamondPar5, was going up. I'm not sure if I could have been more successfully sarcastic if I tried.

    You really think Mr Mike “ come sit on my knee boys and I’ll teach you something “ Davis isn’t still pulling the strings ? Come on. If he’s on property he’s calling the shots. A guy like that can’t give up control. He’s just hired a scape goat.

    Ask yourself this. And answer it please. Why do we never hear of a course setup being crazy or out of control for the open. For the pga or for the masters ( save the bunker fiasco at whistling straights ) ? Why do people just pick on the USga ? Why not the pga and R and A too ? Has to be a reason.

    Oh I'll happily take that on!
    1. The Open Championship is played on historic links courses whose designs have been proven by a century or more of play. It is, and should be, easy to set them up for championship play. Except that it isn't, quite. You see, they are all threatened by the distances produced by modern golf equipment technology. And so changes are made to them, often with extreme criticism. The Road Hole at The Old Course is a good example.
    2. And the expectations for the Open are entirely different. The grass can be brown, or tan, or purple and it is what the Scots expect. Not what an American tv audience expects.
    3. As for the PGA Championship, I think it is funny how often it is played on sometime-U.S. Open courses (Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot, etc.,) with similar conditions and scoring (yes, it is often just a bit lower-scoring), and there are fewer complaints from the general sports writing and general sports-interest crowd. I think it is because some people have chosen the USGA to pick on, and the PGA Championship, while a major, is just not as attention-grabbing as our one acknowledged national championship conducted by one of golf's ruling bodies. I think a lot of sports writers love to play the class-warfare anti-USGA angle.
    Oh and I want to add one thing about the PGA Championship; remember the incident with Mr. D. Johnson at Whistling Straits? It was poor setup and administration that led to that penalty. Purely on the PGA of America.
    4. The Masters is conducted on a single course every year in circumstances that are largely unrealistic for any other course or championship. The course is closed to all play for a significant part of the year. And yet; the Masters Tournament Committee is and always has been populated by USGA veterans. And now the Chairman of Augusta National is Fred Ridley - former USGA President, Executive Committee member and Nominating Committee (the real power in the USGA) member who was instrumental in nominating Mike Davis to the position of Executive Director of the USGA.

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    Ask any tour player if they’d like to be one shot a round better! :)

    I get your point, but the way everyone dogs on the USGA, you'd think the winning score was +4 every year.

    Did you happen to run the analysis for 'field stroke average' between the two? That would be interesting.

    Unfortunately that's going to be a little too much homework for me. I can't find any summary data anywhere and I really don't want to dig it up year by year.

    Posted:
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  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members  2794WRX Points: 1,087Posts: 2,794 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #97

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @Ashley Schaeffer said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @rangersgoalie said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    Since a lot of you guys seem to want to harass the USGA over course setups, and want to pick on Mike Davis personally, I thought that I would push back and say that Mike Davis is no longer leading the course setups for the USGA, including the 2019 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. John Bodenhamer is now the senior managing director of championships. Facts, you know?
    And moreover, I want to say that while the USGA (rightly) wants to conduct its national championships on a mix of great historic championship courses as well as public courses of both historic and modern design, the ongoing battle is defending courses from equipment technology and particularly golf ball performance in the Pro V era.
    I am hopeful that the USGA will do something about it in the near future, and when that happens, and if Acushnet threatens litigation, I will be even more strongly supportive of the USGA.
    Edit: I obviously stepped away from the computer as the post immediately above mine, by BlackDiamondPar5, was going up. I'm not sure if I could have been more successfully sarcastic if I tried.

    You really think Mr Mike “ come sit on my knee boys and I’ll teach you something “ Davis isn’t still pulling the strings ? Come on. If he’s on property he’s calling the shots. A guy like that can’t give up control. He’s just hired a scape goat.

    Ask yourself this. And answer it please. Why do we never hear of a course setup being crazy or out of control for the open. For the pga or for the masters ( save the bunker fiasco at whistling straights ) ? Why do people just pick on the USga ? Why not the pga and R and A too ? Has to be a reason.

    Oh I'll happily take that on!
    1. The Open Championship is played on historic links courses whose designs have been proven by a century or more of play. It is, and should be, easy to set them up for championship play. Except that it isn't, quite. You see, they are all threatened by the distances produced by modern golf equipment technology. And so changes are made to them, often with extreme criticism. The Road Hole at The Old Course is a good example.
    2. And the expectations for the Open are entirely different. The grass can be brown, or tan, or purple and it is what the Scots expect. Not what an American tv audience expects.
    3. As for the PGA Championship, I think it is funny how often it is played on sometime-U.S. Open courses (Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot, etc.,) with similar conditions and scoring (yes, it is often just a bit lower-scoring), and there are fewer complaints from the general sports writing and general sports-interest crowd. I think it is because some people have chosen the USGA to pick on, and the PGA Championship, while a major, is just not as attention-grabbing as our one acknowledged national championship conducted by one of golf's ruling bodies. I think a lot of sports writers love to play the class-warfare anti-USGA angle.
    Oh and I want to add one thing about the PGA Championship; remember the incident with Mr. D. Johnson at Whistling Straits? It was poor setup and administration that led to that penalty. Purely on the PGA of America.
    4. The Masters is conducted on a single course every year in circumstances that are largely unrealistic for any other course or championship. The course is closed to all play for a significant part of the year. And yet; the Masters Tournament Committee is and always has been populated by USGA veterans. And now the Chairman of Augusta National is Fred Ridley - former USGA President, Executive Committee member and Nominating Committee (the real power in the USGA) member who was instrumental in nominating Mike Davis to the position of Executive Director of the USGA.

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    Ask any tour player if they’d like to be one shot a round better! :)

    I get your point, but the way everyone dogs on the USGA, you'd think the winning score was +4 every year.

    Did you happen to run the analysis for 'field stroke average' between the two? That would be interesting.

    Unfortunately that's going to be a little too much homework for me. I can't find any summary data anywhere and I really don't want to dig it up year by year.

    Understood. I couldn't find it either.

    Posted:
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  • Titleist99Titleist99 Members  1025WRX Points: 462Posts: 1,025 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Ashley Schaeffer said:

    A true leader doesn’t wonder why he’s scrutinized and questioned.

    Absolutely......Lions don't concern themselves with what lambs think....

    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6841WRX Points: 610Posts: 6,841 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #99

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @HitEmTrue said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    On -, @HitEmTrue said:

    On -, @bladehunter said:

    Then I respectfully have to ask how on earth you approve of the cauliflower greens at chambers bay , or the or the Dustin Johnson debacle at Oakmont or their legitimate attempt in day 2-3 to bake the greens a shinnecock. ? They had 10 years to get it right at chambers. And the DJ incident is an irrefutable embarrassment in management. You don’t take a walking official and call him a liar and overrule him. Not when every player in that group agrees with the official. How do you reconcile those incidents ?

    Would have worked out a little better for everyone if DJ had told the official that he HAD grounded the putter near the ball, instead of saying otherwise.

    How so ? They used super slow mo gnat cam view to decide it. So why he said doesn’t really matter.

    By changing the ruling, they didn't call the walking referee a liar. DJ told the ref that he had not grounded the putter near the ball...and the walking referee used that incorrect information to make his ruling. At least that is my recollection.

    Actually, it may have been more complicated than that. The ref may have asked DJ if he had addressed the ball, rather than asking more questions about grounding the putter near the ball. Either way, the ref made his decision not knowing all the facts.

    Right but he made it knowing all the facts that his eyes could tell him by watching. Same by DJ and his playing partners. They used slow high def video to call them out. Which at the time I asked “ why have a walking official and why ask the player “? You aren’t going to use their interpretation then why ask ?

    The walking officials aren't watching every move, looking for infractions and things to penalize. They are ready to offer assistance when needed. The ref HAD to ask because DJ asked for help. It turns out that not all the information was revealed during that conversation.

    DJ should have told the ref he had grounded the club near the ball. The ref should have asked more questions besides asking if he had addressed the ball (while grounding it...I believe that was the question that was asked). And, DJ should have been told about the problem quicker after it was watched by officials on video.

    Posted:
  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever The bearer of unconditional things PAMembers  471WRX Points: 396Posts: 471 Greens
    Joined:  #100

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    The average life expectancy in the USA is 79.3 years. In Cuba, it's 79.1. The difference between those two countries is just not that significant.

    Posted:
  • thepres_10thepres_10 Members  18WRX Points: 23Handicap: 6.8Posts: 18 Bunkers
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    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Posted:
  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers  2726WRX Points: 1,298Posts: 2,726 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #102

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend...

    ...par.

    Posted:
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  • North TexasNorth Texas Members  4597WRX Points: 942Posts: 4,597 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    Posted:
  • RobS14526RobS14526 Members  1163WRX Points: 273Posts: 1,163 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #104
    Posted:
  • Brass_BullseyeBrass_Bullseye BrassBullseye Members  378WRX Points: 105Handicap: 9Posts: 378 Greens
    Joined:  #105

    On -, @JohnnyCashForever said:

    On -, @Brass_Bullseye said:

    I ran the numbers last year, and over the past 20 years (I think that's the timeframe I used) the average score for the winner of the US Open was 69 and change. The average score for the winner of the PGA was 68 and change. For all the wailing and moaning about the USGA, the difference is just not that significant.

    The average life expectancy in the USA is 79.3 years. In Cuba, it's 79.1. The difference between those two countries is just not that significant.

    Huh?

    Posted:
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  • imakaveliimakaveli Moli Moli Moli Moli Tommy Tommy Tommy Tommy... Members  13160WRX Points: 1,020Handicap: 3.8Posts: 13,160 Titanium Tees
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    Trying to look tough, just like last year and the year before that and...

    Posted:
  • farrar24farrar24 ClubWRX  254WRX Points: 63Handicap: +1.2Posts: 254 Greens
    Joined:  #107

    I'm just imagining them making number 7 too firm of a green, shaving down the back rough, and having balls land hard on the green, rolling down the cliff and into the Pacific.

    Posted:
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  • thepres_10thepres_10 Members  18WRX Points: 23Handicap: 6.8Posts: 18 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 #108

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    When guys are hitting 3 woods 300yds+, I don't think it is a head size issue for the driver. Maybe ball, sure. But these guys are producing some extraordinary clubhead speed, which is the biggest factor for driver distance. Larger driver head size can definitely increase yardage, but not by as much as increasing clubhead speed. Tiger was pumping drives back in the day 300+ on the regular when no one else was and people looked at what he did and copied it, of which a large part was fitness. Some of my points may be wrong, but I don't think distance is the biggest issue facing the game today.

    Besides, as Phil told us in his instagram video at Augusta, there is only one course on tour where longer drives equate to lower scores, and that is at Augusta National. Hence why I think distance is not a big deal since guys aren't scoring off of their driver distance.

    EDIT: I found this article, which seems to equate longer driver distance on tour with making more prize money. https://golfweek.com/2018/04/22/golf-by-the-numbers-distance-off-tee-pays-dividends/ . The charts on here are provided with no statistical explanations, no r^2 to show fit, and seem to be a little more of the law of correlation does not equal causation. Just take a look at the charts for yourself, not extremely convincing in my opinion without the proper statistical clarification provided.

    Posted:
  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members, ClubWRX  10339WRX Points: 3,540Handicap: 8Posts: 10,339 ClubWRX
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 #109

    They will dry it up till it is unplayable. Just like last time. Because, they have no idea how to really set up a course so that it is both difficult and playable. Their only answers is grow the rough, replace the greens with granite counter tops, and make sure the fairways are running at a 13 stimp. Then cry that the ball is going to far when 30% of the total distance is after the ball hits the ground.

    Remember this??

    Posted:
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  • Joker91Joker91 Westminster, COMembers  572WRX Points: 280Handicap: 8.8Posts: 572 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #110

    Maybe try watching to enjoy one of the best tourneys in golf and stop looking for things to complain about?

    Posted:
  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,190Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #111

    On -, @Joker91 said:

    Maybe try watching to enjoy one of the best tourneys in golf and stop looking for things to complain about?

    We all go into it with that mindset. And then quickly the hopes of watching good golf is dashed with windmills and Mickey Mouse escapades. I mean they even have Joe Buck announcing . If that doesn’t scream wrong I don’t know what does.

    Posted:
  • gvogelgvogel Members  8345WRX Points: 1,235Posts: 8,345 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #112

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    That's because Frank Thomas, who was their ball and club expert, was incompetent. A moron, actually.....

    Posted:
    Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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  • farmerfarmer Members  8710WRX Points: 1,102Posts: 8,710 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #113

    Kind of OT, but in the article posted by Rob, the USGA's Rob Hall comments that it's a shame PB got so much rain, while CA is in a severe, multi-year drought. Golf is great, but that comment is more than a little tone deaf to the real world. To Quigley, PB is not a real links course, yet they will dry it out and assume it will be as playable as Hoylake when it was burned out. The design is for balls to be flown onto the greens, with very few holes offering an alternative approach.

    Posted:
  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members, ClubWRX  10339WRX Points: 3,540Handicap: 8Posts: 10,339 ClubWRX
    Joined:  #114

    On -, @farmer said:

    Kind of OT, but in the article posted by Rob, the USGA's Rob Hall comments that it's a shame PB got so much rain, while CA is in a severe, multi-year drought. Golf is great, but that comment is more than a little tone deaf to the real world. To Quigley, PB is not a real links course, yet they will dry it out and assume it will be as playable as Hoylake when it was burned out. The design is for balls to be flown onto the greens, with very few holes offering an alternative approach.

    correct.

    Posted:
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  • North TexasNorth Texas Members  4597WRX Points: 942Posts: 4,597 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #115

    On -, @Joker91 said:

    Maybe try watching to enjoy one of the best tourneys in golf and stop looking for things to complain about?

    Exactly. Jeez, a bunch of negative nancies on here crying about a course playing difficult. Boo hoo.

    Posted:
  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members  6106WRX Points: 1,101Posts: 6,106 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #116

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @Joker91 said:

    Maybe try watching to enjoy one of the best tourneys in golf and stop looking for things to complain about?

    Exactly. Jeez, a bunch of negative nancies on here crying about a course playing difficult. Boo hoo.

    No one is crying and that is not the complaint but of course you know that already.

    Posted:
  • storm319storm319 USMembers  4312WRX Points: 489Posts: 4,312 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 8, 2019 #117

    On -, @gvogel said:

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    That's because Frank Thomas, who was their ball and club expert, was incompetent. A moron, actually.....

    While I agree that he dropped the ball by not pushing for stricter club limits sooner in late 90’s, Thomas was far from incompetent. He just took the stance of only pushing for regulation when absolutely necessary and preferred to let physics naturally limit equipment (granted this approach led to his biggest misstep when it came to max clubhead volume). At least he was logical when it came to his criticism of the groove rollback being unnecessary.

    Take a look at this article from 1995. You will notice that the same critics were making the same tired arguments that they are making today with the main reasoning being focused on comparing vs past eras (who cares if we cannot compare Hogan to Tiger apples to apples). Also notice that Jack was complaining about the golf ball before any multilayer, solid core balls had even been introduced (he has simply been a complainer since he stopped competing on the PGA Tour). The reality is things change, records are eventually broken and some people have a hard time accepting that.

    https://www.si.com/vault/1995/07/03/204430/doubting-thomas-frank-thomas-of-the-usga-is-skeptical-about-claims-that-modern-equipment-is-ruining-the-game

    Posted:
    Post edited by storm319 on
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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,190Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #118

    On -, @gvogel said:

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    That's because Frank Thomas, who was their ball and club expert, was incompetent. A moron, actually.....

    At least we have a pinpointed moment and a single fellow who dropped the ball. Hard to understand how he couldn’t see it coming then.

    Posted:
  • gvogelgvogel Members  8345WRX Points: 1,235Posts: 8,345 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #119

    On -, @storm319 said:

    On -, @gvogel said:

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    That's because Frank Thomas, who was their ball and club expert, was incompetent. A moron, actually.....

    While I agree that he dropped the ball a bit by not setting stricter club limits sooner in late 90’s, Thomas was far from incompetent. He just took the stance of only adding regulations when absolutely necessary and preferred to let physics naturally limit equipment.

    Take a look at this article from 1995. You will notice that the same critics were making the same tired arguments that they are making today with the main reasoning being focused on comparing vs past eras (who cares if we cannot compare Hogan to Tiger apples to apples). Also notice that Jack was complaining about the golf ball before any multilayer, solid core balls had even been introduced (he has simply been a complainer since he stopped competing on the PGA Tour). The reality is things change, records are eventually broken and some people have a hard time accepting that.

    https://www.si.com/vault/1995/07/03/204430/doubting-thomas-frank-thomas-of-the-usga-is-skeptical-about-claims-that-modern-equipment-is-ruining-the-game

    I stand by my comment. I will back Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player and Tom Watson every time when it comes to arguing if the modern ball has changed the game. And the article that you quote was written in 1995, before the solid core ball really changed the game.

    The problem as I see it is that incremental changes - steel to titanium, 150 cc to 460 cc, wound ball to solid core ball, 2 layers to 4 layers or more, advances in dimple design - have all contributed to a game which is now played on golf courses that are too long, and take too much time.

    Your serve.

    Posted:
    Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
  • North TexasNorth Texas Members  4597WRX Points: 942Posts: 4,597 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #120

    On -, @storm319 said:

    On -, @gvogel said:

    On -, @North Texas said:

    On -, @thepres_10 said:

    On -, @15th Club said:

    On -, @widow-maker said:

    On -, @3whacker said:

    Mother Nature > the rough should be pretty high already, and I don't think the USGA will do anything to cut it down much..the winner will be among the leaders in fairways hit

    As it should be. The US Open should test every aspect of your game, and accuracy is certainly a major aspect. The course should be difficult, yet fair to all... and for goodness sakes, don't lose the greens trying to make them too fast. Fast is good...too fast is stupid and a lesson they should have learned a long time ago.

    I'll say the same thing in a different way. We should not need to trick up golf courses with excessively narrowed fairways and with ultrafast putting surfaces to defend against the excessive distance produce by modern golf equipment.

    I just think sometimes people are a little upset that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger than years past and modern equipment has not aided as much as people realize. Maybe we should go back to hickory golf for a more "pure" form of golf?

    Doesn't bother me a bit that the modern professional golfer is faster and stronger. That was going to happen no matter what happened to the modern equipment. But make no mistake about it, the modern equipment has had a huge impact in today's game and that is my biggest complaint with the USGA. They let the ball and the size of the driver head get away from them.

    That's because Frank Thomas, who was their ball and club expert, was incompetent. A moron, actually.....

    While I agree that he dropped the ball by not pushing for stricter club limits sooner in late 90’s, Thomas was far from incompetent. He just took the stance of only pushing for regulation when absolutely necessary and preferred to let physics naturally limit equipment (granted this approach led to his biggest misstep when it came to max clubhead volume). At least he was logical when it came to his criticism of the groove rollback being unnecessary.

    Take a look at this article from 1995. You will notice that the same critics were making the same tired arguments that they are making today with the main reasoning being focused on comparing vs past eras (who cares if we cannot compare Hogan to Tiger apples to apples). Also notice that Jack was complaining about the golf ball before any multilayer, solid core balls had even been introduced (he has simply been a complainer since he stopped competing on the PGA Tour). The reality is things change, records are eventually broken and some people have a hard time accepting that.

    https://www.si.com/vault/1995/07/03/204430/doubting-thomas-frank-thomas-of-the-usga-is-skeptical-about-claims-that-modern-equipment-is-ruining-the-game

    What I see from that article is that Frank Thomas was extremely arrogant and would not listen to people who were telling him what was going to happen. Everyone knew what was going to happen except for him.

    Posted:
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