ball moved with marker down

[kitkatz]

What is the rule if you leave your marker down next to the ball but then the ball moves (eg wind, slope) leaving the marker by itself. Do you play from the marker or from where the ball ends up

[Sawgrass]

13.1d(2) says that if you mark LIFT and replace a ball later moved by natural forces, it must be replaced. (If you simply marked it but didn’t move it, it is played from its new location.)

 

13.1d(2):

When to Replace Ball Moved by Natural Forces. If natural forces cause a player’s ball on the putting green to move, where the player must play from next depends on whether the ball had already been lifted and replaced on its original spot:

• Ball Already Lifted and Replaced. The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), even though it was moved by natural forces and not by the player, the opponent or an outside influence (see Rule 9.3, Exception).

• Ball Not Already Lifted and Replaced. The ball must be played from its new spot (see Rule 9.3).

 

 

[kitkatz]

Thanks Sawgrass - which of those covers this exact situation of the marker still being down?

 

[kitkatz]

or are you trying to say there are two scenarios:

1. mark and leave ball in place which then moves by itself -> play ball in new location

2. mark and pick up the ball and then replace it and it moves by itself at some point after this -> replace ball next to marker

[Sawgrass]

> @kitkatz said:

> or are you trying to say there are two scenarios:

> 1. mark and leave ball in place which then moves by itself -> play ball in new location

> 2. mark and pick up the ball and then replace it and it moves by itself at some point after this -> replace ball next to marker

 

This is exactly right.

 

Putting a mark down next to a ball on a putting green, without additional action by you, achieves nothing other than providing you the right to lift that ball. This was true last year as well, but this year the lifting and replacing (or rotating) of that ball creates ownership of that spot if natural forces subsequently move the ball.

[HitEmTrue]

Yes, two scenarios. Your ball location is not locked in place until you mark and lift it.

 

[antip]

Nice to see a golf rules question again, it's been a few days.

And to extract maximum learning: there are also other situations that "lock in" a ball's position, even if no marking was involved. 13.1d(2)/1 outlines a different scenario where a player's ball on the green is in temporary water, so the player lifts the ball and places it at the point of NPCR on the green. Again, that position where the ball is placed is "locked" should natural forces subsequently move the ball.

Now for discussion purposes, what about the following situations?

1. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin and unmarked, A is off the green fetching the putter. B has a long putt with C attending the flagstick and B putts, pulling it nastily and towards A's ball. B calls to C "lift A's ball" and C does so without having time to mark (no penalty, 11.3 Exception). C replaces A's ball where it was and shortly after the wind blows the ball off the green. Does it need to be replaced?

2. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin, A is approaching the green after his fairway shot. Another fellow playing the parallel hole walks on to the green and lifts A's ball to identify it, sees it is not his and replaces it. The wind then blows it off the green. Replace?

3. Again A's ball is near the pin while A approaches the green. A crow flies down and picks up the ball (a common problem around my way at the moment), and while an agitated A is rushing forward screaming the crow drops the ball, pretty much in same position as far as A can tell. Consequently, A sees no reason to move the ball. Before he can get his marker down, the wind then blows it off the green. Replace?

[Halebopp]

Good questions, antip! Maybe the ruling bodies did do a good job with the rules after all, considering how quiet it has been over here lately. :)

 

My take is the ball needs to be replaced in all of those situations, even though it seems a bit weird. I couldn't come across anything in the rules that would define how the ball needs to be lifted with regards to 13.1d(2). The crow is also equal to another player in stroke play, both are simply outside influences. It might not be how the ruling bodies intended it to be but that's how I see it.

[Sawgrass]

> @antip said:

 

> 1. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin and unmarked, A is off the green fetching the putter. B has a long putt with C attending the flagstick and B putts, pulling it nastily and towards A's ball. B calls to C "lift A's ball" and C does so without having time to mark (no penalty, 11.3 Exception).

 

 

 

IMO there IS a penalty for moving the above ball. While the noted exception says that THIS rule does not prohibit a player from lifting a ball at rest on a putting green, 9.4b/14.1a DO require a 1s penalty, and IMO 11.3 exception does not apply. So I believe while you may mark and lift the ball in the above situation, you may not simply lift it.

 

Debate?

[Halebopp]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @antip said:

>

> > 1. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin and unmarked, A is off the green fetching the putter. B has a long putt with C attending the flagstick and B putts, pulling it nastily and towards A's ball. B calls to C "lift A's ball" and C does so without having time to mark (no penalty, 11.3 Exception).

>

>

>

> IMO there IS a penalty for moving the above ball. While the noted exception says that THIS rule does not prohibit a player from lifting a ball at rest on a putting green, 9.4b/14.1a DO require a 1s penalty, and IMO 11.3 exception does not apply. So I believe while you may mark and lift the ball in the above situation, you may not simply lift it.

>

> Debate?

 

You made my head spin and might require me to backtrack my previous reply.

 

14.1b tells us the player, his/her caddie on the green and otherwise anyone the player authorizes can lift the player's ball. Would that mean that anyone else "lifting" the ball is simply moving it?

 

In this case player A did not authorize the lifting.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @antip said:

>

> > 1. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin and unmarked, A is off the green fetching the putter. B has a long putt with C attending the flagstick and B putts, pulling it nastily and towards A's ball. B calls to C "lift A's ball" and C does so without having time to mark (no penalty, 11.3 Exception).

>

>

>

> IMO there IS a penalty for moving the above ball. While the noted exception says that THIS rule does not prohibit a player from lifting a ball at rest on a putting green, 9.4b/14.1a DO require a 1s penalty, and IMO 11.3 exception does not apply. So I believe while you may mark and lift the ball in the above situation, you may not simply lift it.

>

> Debate?

 

If A lifts his own ball without marking it, I agree 1SP, but in my scenario, A's ball is lifted by C (at B's request) and A is not even on the putting green.

[Sawgrass]

> @antip said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @antip said:

> >

> > > 1. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin and unmarked, A is off the green fetching the putter. B has a long putt with C attending the flagstick and B putts, pulling it nastily and towards A's ball. B calls to C "lift A's ball" and C does so without having time to mark (no penalty, 11.3 Exception).

> >

> >

> >

> > IMO there IS a penalty for moving the above ball. While the noted exception says that THIS rule does not prohibit a player from lifting a ball at rest on a putting green, 9.4b/14.1a DO require a 1s penalty, and IMO 11.3 exception does not apply. So I believe while you may mark and lift the ball in the above situation, you may not simply lift it.

> >

> > Debate?

>

> If A lifts his own ball without marking it, I agree 1SP, but in my scenario, A's ball is lifted by C (at B's request) and A is not even on the putting green.

 

I failed to note it wasn’t the player lifting his own ball. No debate!

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> Nice to see a golf rules question again, it's been a few days.

> And to extract maximum learning: there are also other situations that "lock in" a ball's position, even if no marking was involved. 13.1d(2)/1 outlines a different scenario where a player's ball on the green is in temporary water, so the player lifts the ball and places it at the point of NPCR on the green. Again, that position where the ball is placed is "locked" should natural forces subsequently move the ball.

> Now for discussion purposes, what about the following situations?

> 1. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin and unmarked, A is off the green fetching the putter. B has a long putt with C attending the flagstick and B putts, pulling it nastily and towards A's ball. B calls to C "lift A's ball" and C does so without having time to mark (no penalty, 11.3 Exception). C replaces A's ball where it was and shortly after the wind blows the ball off the green. Does it need to be replaced?

> 2. A's ball is on the PG, 2 yards to the side of the pin, A is approaching the green after his fairway shot. Another fellow playing the parallel hole walks on to the green and lifts A's ball to identify it, sees it is not his and replaces it. The wind then blows it off the green. Replace?

> 3. Again A's ball is near the pin while A approaches the green. A crow flies down and picks up the ball (a common problem around my way at the moment), and while an agitated A is rushing forward screaming the crow drops the ball, pretty much in same position as far as A can tell. Consequently, A sees no reason to move the ball. Before he can get his marker down, the wind then blows it off the green. Replace?

 

As the idea of replacing a ball moved after it had been marked, lifted and replaced is based on the idea that in such a case a ball has certainly been at rest, I would say that in all those cases this general idea has been fulfilled. Thus the ball must be replaced in all three cases.

[antip]

> @Halebopp said:

> Good questions, antip! Maybe the ruling bodies did do a good job with the rules after all, considering how quiet it has been over here lately. :)

>

> My take is the ball needs to be replaced in all of those situations, even though it seems a bit weird. I couldn't come across anything in the rules that would define how the ball needs to be lifted with regards to 13.1d(2). The crow is also equal to another player in stroke play, both are simply outside influences. It might not be how the ruling bodies intended it to be but that's how I see it.

 

I understand your argument but my inclination is to only agree replacement in cases 1 and 2 but not 3. My thinking is it is simply not possible for a crow to 'replace' a ball under the Rules - it can certainly 'move' a ball, but it cannot 'replace'. So I don't think the ball is "locked in" to that spot in #3 scenario. The #1 and #2 scenarios, though, have those players lifting and replacing the other player's ball under the Rules.

 

But I suspect we would need RB involvement to get a definitive answer.

 

 

[rogolf]

> @antip said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > Good questions, antip! Maybe the ruling bodies did do a good job with the rules after all, considering how quiet it has been over here lately. :)

> >

> > My take is the ball needs to be replaced in all of those situations, even though it seems a bit weird. I couldn't come across anything in the rules that would define how the ball needs to be lifted with regards to 13.1d(2). The crow is also equal to another player in stroke play, both are simply outside influences. It might not be how the ruling bodies intended it to be but that's how I see it.

>

> I understand your argument but my inclination is to only agree replacement in cases 1 and 2 but not 3. My thinking is it is simply not possible for a crow to 'replace' a ball under the Rules - it can certainly 'move' a ball, but it cannot 'replace'. So I don't think the ball is "locked in" to that spot in #3 scenario. The #1 and #2 scenarios, though, have those players lifting and replacing the other player's ball under the Rules.

>

> But I suspect we would need RB involvement to get a definitive answer.

>

>

 

The Rules specify player or person in replacing the ball. The crow does not qualify.

[antip]

> @rogolf said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > Good questions, antip! Maybe the ruling bodies did do a good job with the rules after all, considering how quiet it has been over here lately. :)

> > >

> > > My take is the ball needs to be replaced in all of those situations, even though it seems a bit weird. I couldn't come across anything in the rules that would define how the ball needs to be lifted with regards to 13.1d(2). The crow is also equal to another player in stroke play, both are simply outside influences. It might not be how the ruling bodies intended it to be but that's how I see it.

> >

> > I understand your argument but my inclination is to only agree replacement in cases 1 and 2 but not 3. My thinking is it is simply not possible for a crow to 'replace' a ball under the Rules - it can certainly 'move' a ball, but it cannot 'replace'. So I don't think the ball is "locked in" to that spot in #3 scenario. The #1 and #2 scenarios, though, have those players lifting and replacing the other player's ball under the Rules.

> >

> > But I suspect we would need RB involvement to get a definitive answer.

> >

> >

>

> The Rules specify player or person in replacing the ball. The crow does not qualify.

 

Good point, definition of "replace" limits the process to humankind.