I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[ThinkingPlus]

> @hybrid25 said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> > >

> > > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> > >

> > > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

> >

> > But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

>

> I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.

 

I was being facetious hence the ;-) .

[hybrid25]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @hybrid25 said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> > > >

> > > > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> > > >

> > > > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

> > >

> > > But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

> >

> > I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.

>

> I was being facetious hence the ;-) .

 

lol, sorry I missed it.

[nsxguy]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @hybrid25 said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> > > >

> > > > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> > > >

> > > > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

> > >

> > > But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

> >

> > I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.

>

> I was being facetious hence the ;-) .

 

What is ;-) ???

[ThinkingPlus]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> > > > >

> > > > > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

> > > >

> > > > But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

> > >

> > > I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.

> >

> > I was being facetious hence the ;-) .

>

> What is ;-) ???

 

Wink/smile implying teasing or "just kidding" or "not serious".

[Hawkeye77]

:-p

[nsxguy]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

> > > > >

> > > > > But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

> > > >

> > > > I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.

> > >

> > > I was being facetious hence the ;-) .

> >

> > What is ;-) ???

>

> Wink/smile implying teasing or "just kidding" or "not serious".

 

That is so 1998. LOL

[Newby]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> Wink/smile implying teasing or "just kidding" or "not serious".

 

What's wrong with the Emojis provided? ;)

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Played again yesterday, totally new group of guys on the front and different yet again on the back. Really pleased the way everyone is embracing leaving the pin in. It wasn't even a discussion or debate.

[sui generis]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> Played again yesterday, totally new group of guys on the front and different yet again on the back. Really pleased the way everyone is embracing leaving the pin in. It wasn't even a discussion or debate.

 

We've got one contrarian; we leave him to manage his own flagstick. That'll get old soon enough, I expect.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Newby said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > Wink/smile implying teasing or "just kidding" or "not serious".

>

> What's wrong with the Emojis provided? ;)

 

You mean the little tiny ones that show up in the middle of the screen? I have been hoping that the emojis get fixed and wasn't going to use them until they did.

[Lodestone]

I saw Tiger leave it in on one long putt. Now that I've seen Tiger do it, it must be OK...even if he did scorch it about 8' by the hole.

[nsxguy]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > Wink/smile implying teasing or "just kidding" or "not serious".

> >

> > What's wrong with the Emojis provided? ;)

>

> You mean the little tiny ones that show up in the middle of the screen? I have been hoping that the emojis get fixed and wasn't going to use them until they did.

 

Yeah, I was hoping they get fixed too. The current ones are pretty much useless. They're way too small and putting them a line down and centering them looks really silly. Would also want to see the emojis unique to WRX to come back.

 

 


 

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @hybrid25 said:

> > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > Hand damage wasn't a noteworthy problem in 2018, and if you reach in with your fingers surrounding the flagstick (instead of them avoiding the flagstick) it's virtually the same in 2019.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well, in 2018 the flag stick was required to be out, so no surprise it wasnt previously a noteworthy issue. The rule change now provides the lazy, careless, and inconsiderate with new opportunity.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The same players who do not replace divots, fix pitch marks and rake bunkers will be the ones who dont take care to remove the ball carefully without damaging the cup.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But they will play so much faster so it will be worth it. ;-)

> > > > >

> > > > > I have to disagree with your comment, it's not necessarily about laziness, it's about the ergonomics of your hand in relationship to the hole. Personally, I have larger hands and it is almost impossible to reach in and get my ball out without doing minor damage to the hole. As careful as I can be, my hand just doesn't fit. So in essence, I am removing the flagstick anyway so why not remove it as soon as I get on the green and just be done with it? Face it, human nature is such that they will try to cut corners and remove they're Ball even though they may damage the hole. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just what's going to happen with this new rule. And I also have heard that there is a problem of damage holes with this new rule, contrary to what some may say.

> > > >

> > > > I was being facetious hence the ;-) .

> > >

> > > What is ;-) ???

> >

> > Wink/smile implying teasing or "just kidding" or "not serious".

>

> That is so 1998. LOL

 

98-2000 the peak of human evolution. We are gaining speed down the other side of the slope.

[hybrid25]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> Played again yesterday, totally new group of guys on the front and different yet again on the back. Really pleased the way everyone is embracing leaving the pin in. It wasn't even a discussion or debate.

 

What helps is adopting a little flexibility in a your choice. I can go either way depending the situation, as I have noticed in most others.

[Golfer4Life]

I like having the choice, but I still like the pin out.

[bladehunter]

> @Golfer4Life said:

> I like having the choice, but I still like the pin out.

 

Hey. When he’s right. He’s right on.

[dpb5031]

I made a nice 20 foot birdie putt on our 13th hole in my last round with the flag stick IN! I still prefer it out though...lol

[rogolf]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I made a nice 20 foot birdie putt on our 13th hole in my last round with the flag stick IN! I still prefer it out though...lol

 

Would the putt have gone in without the flagstick there? The flagstick is only 3/4 inch (or less); the hole is 4 1/4 inches. It's easier to hit the hole than the flagstick.

[dpb5031]

> @rogolf said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > I made a nice 20 foot birdie putt on our 13th hole in my last round with the flag stick IN! I still prefer it out though...lol

>

> Would the putt have gone in without the flagstick there? The flagstick is only 3/4 inch (or less); the hole is 4 1/4 inches. It's easier to hit the hole than the flagstick.

 

Yes, no question about it

[rogolf]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @rogolf said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > I made a nice 20 foot birdie putt on our 13th hole in my last round with the flag stick IN! I still prefer it out though...lol

> >

> > Would the putt have gone in without the flagstick there? The flagstick is only 3/4 inch (or less); the hole is 4 1/4 inches. It's easier to hit the hole than the flagstick.

>

> Yes, no question about it

 

That's what I've seen 99% of the time (limited statistics, but also includes watch the Tours on TV) when players are putting with the flagstick in, the putt that went in would have gone in even if the flagstick was not there.

[dpb5031]

> @rogolf said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > I made a nice 20 foot birdie putt on our 13th hole in my last round with the flag stick IN! I still prefer it out though...lol

> > >

> > > Would the putt have gone in without the flagstick there? The flagstick is only 3/4 inch (or less); the hole is 4 1/4 inches. It's easier to hit the hole than the flagstick.

> >

> > Yes, no question about it

>

> That's what I've seen 99% of the time (limited statistics, but also includes watch the Tours on TV) when players are putting with the flagstick in, the putt that went in would have gone in even if the flagstick was not there.

 

> @rogolf said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @rogolf said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > I made a nice 20 foot birdie putt on our 13th hole in my last round with the flag stick IN! I still prefer it out though...lol

> > >

> > > Would the putt have gone in without the flagstick there? The flagstick is only 3/4 inch (or less); the hole is 4 1/4 inches. It's easier to hit the hole than the flagstick.

> >

> > Yes, no question about it

>

> That's what I've seen 99% of the time (limited statistics, but also includes watch the Tours on TV) when players are putting with the flagstick in, the putt that went in would have gone in even if the flagstick was not there.

 

Agreed, and that's because the Tour Pros almost never hit a putt so hard that it would be helped by the flag stick. I think the inflection point is a putt traveling at a great enough speed to roll more than approximately 9 feet past the hole. In other words, a putt hammered with horrible speed. So, if a putt is traveling that fast or faster and strikes the stick, it is more likely to be helped. Less than that and a higher percentage go in without the flag stick, and a higher percentage will be deflected by the stick if it is left in and the ball strikes it (the flag stick) off-center.

[Augster]

Well, it’s finally happened. The groups I play with have come all the way around nearly to last year on the pin in as per the OP. To start the year we were all gung ho for leaving the pin in.

 

But over the last 2.5 months, we’ve seen so many good putts hit the flag dead center and stay out, putts that would have stayed in at least 80% of the time IMO, we’ve gone to an abridged stick in/stick out format.

 

For all putts that are long that would need to be attended, we leave it in. Then once we’re inside 30 feet or so, we take it out. Occasionally if someone lags from 40 to, say, 2-3 feet, they’ll finish with the pin in then take it out for the rest of us.

 

On the birdie putts I know I’ve made and the pin kept out, it’s probably cost me close to $100 in skin money. For the others in my groups, a lot more than that. I’m a slow learner. And I really wanted to believe the stick would help. It has on a few, I’m sure. But those don’t stick out like the ones that cost you money. And when it hits the stick and stays in, there’s a good chance it was going to stay in anyway.

 

Alas, sadly, it has come to this. On any makable putt, the stick is out. Just like last year. And every year before that.

[bladehunter]

> @Augster said:

> Well, it’s finally happened. The groups I play with have come all the way around nearly to last year on the pin in as per the OP. To start the year we were all gung ho for leaving the pin in.

>

> But over the last 2.5 months, we’ve seen so many good putts hit the flag dead center and stay out, putts that would have stayed in at least 80% of the time IMO, we’ve gone to an abridged stick in/stick out format.

>

> For all putts that are long that would need to be attended, we leave it in. Then once we’re inside 30 feet or so, we take it out. Occasionally if someone lags from 40 to, say, 2-3 feet, they’ll finish with the pin in then take it out for the rest of us.

>

> On the birdie putts I know I’ve made and the pin kept out, it’s probably cost me close to $100 in skin money. For the others in my groups, a lot more than that. I’m a slow learner. And I really wanted to believe the stick would help. It has on a few, I’m sure. But those don’t stick out like the ones that cost you money. And when it hits the stick and stays in, there’s a good chance it was going to stay in anyway.

>

> Alas, sadly, it has come to this. On any makable putt, the stick is out. Just like last year. And every year before that.

 

Yep. Our last hold out was our club pro. He had a 10 foot chip spat back at him 3 weeks ago and he lost it. This thing was just trickling. Wind blowing and it timed itself perfectly and bang. Threw it out. Lol . So none of our regular 16 for the skins games are pin in guys.

[longballjs]

I play in an association of 90 guys and never really have a set group, we like to mix it up. Seems half want it in, half out, spend more time playing with the flag than anything else on the green. For me, it has cost me 5 stroke on 4 holes and not helped me once. The putts that hit the flag and missed i am 100% certain would have dropped if not for the flag. They were an appropriate pace and dead center.

[HatsForBats]

In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

 

I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

[dwboston]

> @HatsForBats said:

> In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

>

> I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

 

Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @dwboston said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> >

> > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

>

> Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

 

In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

[HonestPlayer]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @dwboston said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > >

> > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> >

> > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

>

> In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

 

Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

[bladehunter]

> @HonestPlayer said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @dwboston said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > >

> > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > >

> > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> >

> > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

>

> Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

 

Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

[dpb5031]

Very few players on any of the pro Tours are putting with the flag stick left in on anything but extremely long lag putts. Notably, Adam Scott is one of the few leaving it in on shorter putts, but he's been a head case with his putting for a long time. I'm not even sure Bryson DeChambeau is leaving it in for all putts as he did earlier in the season when the rule change was first enacted.

 

If it were truly an advantage, many more would be leaving it in.