Why Am I Turning The Ball Over With X100?

[Socrates]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @mogc60 said:

> > The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense. It’s all how you load and unload the club. For some it’s true and others a total opposite(my experience). However, what you’ve learned to play with is part of the loading and releasing of the club that you taught your body to do. Shafts that are too soft will torque or rotate open and the head will lag. This enables you to have a closed hand position and keep the face square. Put a shaft that’s stiffer in your hands and it doesn’t torque open and you don’t have the speed to lag the clubhead and that exact same hand position through impact results in a pull or nasty pull hook.

>

> The first bit is absolutely true and I agree, but the second bit is unfortunately one of those myths as well. No matter how soft the shaft is, the clubhead never "lags" or "torques open". There can be a sensation of lag during the loading portion of the swing but the clubhead always catches up and overtakes the shaft when approaching impact. This overtaking (called "lead deflection") adds loft and also a small amount of face closure as well. Lower launch, lower spin shafts deflect less, higher launch/spin shafts deflect more, but only if you have a swing that loads then the same. Many people react to what the shaft does and compensate, sometimes purely subconsciously, and largely negate the differences between shafts. No component of a shaft will actually open the face of a club however.

 

When a shaft is too flexible or too stiff, it becomes very hard for the golfer to have the club head in the same position at impact. You can have almost identical swings and have the club head be in totally different positions which is why it is important to find a flex that works well with your swing.

 

One other thing, many people believe that the fastest part of the swing is at impact. It is not. It occurs about 1/3 of the way down and you are actually decelerating at impact which is why you have a lead deflection. They showed a great example of this during the Masters telecast with Brooks Koepka. And one of the reasons that he hits it farther than most is that he maintains his speed much further along in the downswing than most so that his deceleration number is smaller than others at impact.

[Valtiel]

> @Socrates said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @mogc60 said:

> > > The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense. It’s all how you load and unload the club. For some it’s true and others a total opposite(my experience). However, what you’ve learned to play with is part of the loading and releasing of the club that you taught your body to do. Shafts that are too soft will torque or rotate open and the head will lag. This enables you to have a closed hand position and keep the face square. Put a shaft that’s stiffer in your hands and it doesn’t torque open and you don’t have the speed to lag the clubhead and that exact same hand position through impact results in a pull or nasty pull hook.

> >

> > The first bit is absolutely true and I agree, but the second bit is unfortunately one of those myths as well. No matter how soft the shaft is, the clubhead never "lags" or "torques open". There can be a sensation of lag during the loading portion of the swing but the clubhead always catches up and overtakes the shaft when approaching impact. This overtaking (called "lead deflection") adds loft and also a small amount of face closure as well. Lower launch, lower spin shafts deflect less, higher launch/spin shafts deflect more, but only if you have a swing that loads then the same. Many people react to what the shaft does and compensate, sometimes purely subconsciously, and largely negate the differences between shafts. No component of a shaft will actually open the face of a club however.

>

> When a shaft is too flexible or too stiff, it becomes very hard for the golfer to have the club head in the same position at impact. You can have almost identical swings and have the club head be in totally different positions which is why it is important to find a flex that works well with your swing.

>

> One other thing, many people believe that the fastest part of the swing is at impact. It is not. It occurs about 1/3 of the way down and you are actually decelerating at impact which is why you have a lead deflection. They showed a great example of this during the Masters telecast with Brooks Koepka. And one of the reasons that he hits it farther than most is that he maintains his speed much further along in the downswing than most so that his deceleration number is smaller than others at impact.

 

Agreed, particularly with shafts that have a flex or profile that does not match your swing.

[EmperorPenguin]

> @mogc60 said:

> The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense.

So for a fully-grown adult male starting to play golf, which shafts should he start with?

 

 

[mogc60]

> @EmperorPenguin said:

> > @mogc60 said:

> > The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense.

> So for a fully-grown adult male starting to play golf, which shafts should he start with?

>

>

My guess would be the correct one. There are way too many options to not be fit or do live demoing. Ball flight tells you which one is correct. Too stiff or too soft yields different results for different swings. Find the right one

Weight I believe is so important. Flex in a 37” iron is important but not quite as crucial as in a 44 1/2” driver. Flex profile and weight can affect direction control a lot and are often overlooked. Same thing as stiffness though...some will hook when s shaft is too light and some will block it. It’s very subjective swing to swing.

 

 

[A.Princey]

> @EmperorPenguin said:

> I recently bought an old set of Titleist DCI blacks, 2-PW. The set was originally advertised as Dynamic Gold S300, but when the clubs arrived I noticed that the 2 iron was X100 and mismatched in length (about 40"). I was initially a little disappointed, but I decided to cut it down to the proper length (39", based on my 5 iron at 37.5") and give it a try. The myth I've always heard was that if a shaft is too stiff, the club will not release and you end up coming off the ball; conversely, if a shaft is too flexible the shot will hook. I reckoned that if this is the case, I might want to have the X-flex 2 iron in my bag if I can always count on a fade when I need it.

>

> I went to the local muni with the set and for the first short par 4, a dogleg right, I teed up the 2 iron, aimed down the middle and swung, hoping for the fade. To my surprise, and delight, the shot started right center, and drew about five yards, landing on the middle of the fairway and released and ran for a total of about 215 yards. Pretty **** good! Where was the fade? I thought it was a fluke swing, so I waited for the next short par 4 and used the 2 iron again. Same thing! Another slight draw, this time about maybe three yards.

>

> What's going on here? I have been swinging S300's all my golfing life. My swing speed with the driver is no more than 100 mph. I generally hit the ball fairly straight, and if anything I will have a tendency to cut, and drawing the ball is a rare occurrence, though for now I'm thinking about switching to X100's, even though I am nowhere near as good as a pro.

 

I hook extremely stiff shafts and fade/block really soft shafts. It's all relative to the player swinging the club, and unless you possess the late-release, ideal mechanics of a great player, standard rules of thumb almost never apply.

 

 

[mizuno player]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @EmperorPenguin said:

> > Why, then, are we telling beginning golfers that they should start swinging regular shafts? Why not just start them on day one with X100's? Also, if shaft flex means so little, what would happen if a tour pro swings S300's or even R300's?

>

> Feel of flex works as a "trigger" for how much power the player would put on that club. If feel of flex is strong he will use more power to make that shaft load and feel right, and if its to soft, he will slow down. Advanced club makers is using this trigger to get the players timing and swing into a path that works for him, so some of us would benefit form a "needle in the a.." to speed it up a little, others would benefit by a shaft who slows them down a bit. Feel of flex is very important, it makes a difference for how we swing the club.

 

This is a great explanation. I have had a similar experience. Also, too light and I don't seem to find the middle of the club. As you have said many times. Weight is more important then flex...

 

[rybo]

From experience there are two types of ball flights with shafts that are too stiff:

75% of golfers will push/block/fade the ball

25% of golfers will pull/hook the ball

These are totally dependent on how the golfer loads the shaft for their swing.

 

Personally I fall into the 25% who hook the ball with shafts that are too stiff. I over swing in an attempt to get the shaft to load in some way and this results in some labored closed face swing that sends the ball to the left (I'm right handed)

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @EmperorPenguin said:

> > @mogc60 said:

> > The myth of stiff equals fade and soft equals hook is nonsense.

> So for a fully-grown adult male starting to play golf, which shafts should he start with?

>

>

 

Weight is always the most important shaft spec, so we have to start by finding a weight range thats good, then we can look at flex, and try to find something that dont force him to overplay (to stiff, like Rybo tells about above here), so for short, "the golden middle way" on both weight and flex.

 

The clubs total weight is #2 in importance, but maybe the hardest spec to get right, and shaft weight is the factor we use to adjust total weight up or down, but how do we find out whats right?

Those club fitter classes i took (at Mitchell), did NOT provide any solutions for that, and i never found any books who explain how that should be done, so i developed my own system for that too, and it seems to work very good, and its explained together with shaft flex in the concept i called VISUAL FITTING.

Your can read about that system here, and how the club fitter is able to SEE club specs while the player is swinging the club, and we can actually SEE if shaft weight is to high, and we can SEE if shaft flex is to strong, and its quite easy.

 

You can read more about it here, where you also will find a link to a video of one of the LPGA players ive made equipment for, fitted with this concept, where club specs is used to trigger the players swing into a path that work for the actual player, so this is related to more than just total wgt, shaft weight and flex, but includes head weigh and resistance progression. (not all players should play SW matched or MOI matched equipment, there is lots of in-between options with a different progression that might work better, but it can all be judged in this VISUAL FITTING system, and impact will confirm it when we made it right.

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7871739#Comment_7871739

[EmperorPenguin]

> @rybo said:

> Personally I fall into the 25% who hook the ball with shafts that are too stiff. I over swing in an attempt to get the shaft to load in some way and this results in some labored closed face swing that sends the ball to the left (I'm right handed)

>

So if I hook the ball with my X100 2 iron, to straighten it out I need a more flexible shaft? This sounds like the opposite.

 

[rybo]

> @EmperorPenguin said:

> > @rybo said:

> > Personally I fall into the 25% who hook the ball with shafts that are too stiff. I over swing in an attempt to get the shaft to load in some way and this results in some labored closed face swing that sends the ball to the left (I'm right handed)

> >

> So if I hook the ball with my X100 2 iron, to straighten it out I need a more flexible shaft? This sounds like the opposite.

>

 

It depends if you are part of the 75% or 25%. Kim Braly openly states roughly 25% of golfers will get the exact opposite performance then intended from a shaft design (ie a low launch, low spin shaft and the golfer gets high launch and spin). It's quite normal.

 

And a 2 iron is a unique beast, like Howard stated above, I'd be looking at shaft weight, length and lie angle before flex given the flex is remotely close.

 

[calfan36]

Because the face is closed to the path... Why does everyone on here think a shaft is a magic wand with a mind of its own?

[Howard_Jones]

> @calfan36 said:

> Because the face is closed to the path... Why does everyone on here think a shaft is a magic wand with a mind of its own?

 

Everyone? is that comment meant for THIS tread?

Nobody has mention magic or shafts with a mind of their own, and if you dont know face angle vs path or actual lie angle, how can you conclude its a face closed to path?

A lie angle 1* more upright than it should be makes the same ball flight as a face angle 1* closed to path, and we dont know face angle or lie angle, so nobody is able to say why, but both length, weight, balance and flex makes a difference for how deliver the club to the ball, and its no magic about that, and they was all mentioned, and nobody talked about magic, and nobody can say for sure what caused that ball flight since there is no launch monitor report here.