Well, someone has to post this right? (Tiger/lawsuit)

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > >

> > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > >

> > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > >

> > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > >

> > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> >

> > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

>

> I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

 

I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

[dlygrisse]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > >

> > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > >

> > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > >

> > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > >

> > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> >

> > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

>

> I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

 

It is difficult, a lot of support personal have to be involved. Try 300 drunks or more at a big bar.

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > > >

> > > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > > >

> > > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> > >

> > > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

> >

> > I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

>

> I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

 

In my opinion it’s on him 100% unless he’s tied up and a funnel put in his mouth.

[davep043]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > > > >

> > > > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> > > >

> > > > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

> > >

> > > I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

> >

> > I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

>

> In my opinion it’s on him 100% unless he’s tied up and a funnel put in his mouth.

 

No doubt this is true, he made his choices, and he paid dearly. For better or worse, our individual opinions regarding personal responsibility won't carry a lot of weight in the Florida court system.

Totally aside from the legal issues, do you think that his friends and co-workers feel completely free of responsibility? After all, they're the ones who kept serving drinks to the guy, and he goes out and dies when he crashes his car.

[Zac1321]

To me the most difficult part about all of this is proving that the establishment was aware of his alcohol addiction. Unless the family/lawyer have in their possession written communication between the deceased and management specifically acknowledging his issues (which I would highly doubt) it seems like it would be very easy for the defense to say they weren't aware

[bladehunter]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > > > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

> > > >

> > > > I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

> > >

> > > I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

> >

> > In my opinion it’s on him 100% unless he’s tied up and a funnel put in his mouth.

>

> No doubt this is true, he made his choices, and he paid dearly. For better or worse, our individual opinions regarding personal responsibility won't carry a lot of weight in the Florida court system.

> Totally aside from the legal issues, do you think that his friends and co-workers feel completely free of responsibility? After all, they're the ones who kept serving drinks to the guy, and he goes out and dies when he crashes his car.

 

And I agree. My opinion is clearly idealistic. And laws rarely are. ( sadly)

 

As for his friends. Well. Short answer is probably no. But his family should feel or not feel to a higher degree than the friends who just happens to be the enablers ( allegedly) that night. I’m sure he had help every night.

 

Long answer is that it truly depends on the specific role. If someone knew he was really drunk and let him drive , sure. Guilt is obviously going to visit that person. If they tried to stop him and he refused .... it’s on him. If he was really good at hiding it. It’s on him. I maybe just too much of a realist to have a popular opinion here. But my opinion is rooted in experience. I have a heroine addict brother now. And a highly functional alcoholic father and neither have ever listened to reason or excepted offers for help. If I got a call that either had killed them selves in a crash or with a needle. I’d feel sadness. For a short time. Truth is I’ve mourned both of them most of my life. There’s likely some measure of relief when it’s over. I knkw ive done all I can. It’s against the law to kidnap them and force detox. And even then. To what end ? I doubt either would stay clean if they did.

 

I don’t know this cats story. But if he was truly a “ habitual drunkard” then he’s been a thorn to a lot of people most of his life. So it’s hard to say how those people actually feel. What they feel and what they will adjust maybe two different things depending on the relationships.

[gsrjc]

CNN just reported from the blood test that the driver had elevated THC in his system so perhaps some Mary Jane was involved too.

 

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/tiger-woods-lawsuit/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

[Murphy76]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Golfjack said:

> > The destroying evidence thing is started by the plaintiffs lawyer. Do they even have proof of that happening?

>

> How could they? No form of discovery exists at this stage. You’d have to have a forensic audit of the tapes to know that anything was missing. And newsflash. Not every business keeps recordings for perpetuity. It’s certainly not illegal to delete security footage . Not if it’s a normal routine part of the systems workings. As in we don’t know the timeline of events . If the tape was a month ago and the system dumps every 30 days etc it maybe perfectly normal. Having a camera at the bar would be for 2 reasons. To record altercations and to watch employees. They will have to prove what was on the tape , then prove conspiracy to suppress it. How can they ? If it comes to it all they can possibly prove is a lapse in coverage of the security footage. They won’t be allowed to guess in court what was on it. Just show that something is missing. Pretty thin.

 

+1

Any NVR will overwrite itself rather quickly. Security cameras do not record on 'tape'.

If Tiger's security system records to a VCR tape, something is seriously wrong.

[JDFish]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > > > >

> > > > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> > > >

> > > > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

> > >

> > > I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

> >

> > I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

>

> In my opinion it’s on him 100% unless he’s tied up and a funnel put in his mouth.

 

That's not what the dramshop laws are about - it's about a bartender continuing to serve someone who is obviously intoxicated. I'm sure Tiger and his manager were personally named for the attention getting, but I'd bet will be dismissed out at some point.

 

[bigmoneyp]

> @gsrjc said:

> CNN just reported from the blood test that the driver had elevated THC in his system so perhaps some Mary Jane was involved too.

>

> https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/05/15/us/tiger-woods-lawsuit/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

 

Lets sue the weed man too!

[mdgboxx]

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > > > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

> > > >

> > > > I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

> > >

> > > I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

> >

> > In my opinion it’s on him 100% unless he’s tied up and a funnel put in his mouth.

>

> No doubt this is true, he made his choices, and he paid dearly. For better or worse, our individual opinions regarding personal responsibility won't carry a lot of weight in the Florida court system.

> Totally aside from the legal issues, do you think that his friends and co-workers feel completely free of responsibility? After all, they're the ones who kept serving drinks to the guy, and he goes out and dies when he crashes his car.

 

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > > @chigolfer1 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @bbr16 said:

> > > > > > > > > > Feel awful for the family, but nobody forced him to drink and drive. What a ridiculous lawsuit. I hope tiger can find a way to put this distraction aside this week and play well. An unfortunate start to an otherwise exciting week for golf and tiger fans.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I haven't read that deeply into the suit but I'm not sure I understand which part is ridiculous. Bars have a responsibility to not serve patrons that are clearly drunk.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The word “clearly” is really subjective. Not every drinker tries to fight everyone or is overly loud and obnoxious.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Clearly drunk" is a gigantic gray area. I have been through training in how to handle people who consume alcoholic beverages. For every person that is "clearly" drunk I have been accused of being a jerk for cutting someone off for having a weird accent, or speech impediment, or other physical disability. OTOH, I personally know people that drink so often you wouldn't know if they are sober or drunk, especially if you had never met them before. Couple that with the fact that many people do a lot more things these days that impair their behavior besides imbibing in alcohol. DUI is a serious issue, and my guess is a majority of those under the influence of something is far greater than it used to be, and most of it isn't alcohol. Alcohol can make it MUCH worse, but you can only do what you can do, and often it's extremely hard to manage. You wanna know what really scares me on the road? Someone popping oxy, aderol or other crazy stuff while using a cell phone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you newly 100%. Maybe even 100.

> > > > > > Especially that most laypersons cannot tell when the real pro alcoholic is drunk. Not even close. If they could society would be having a uprising against it right now. That’s how common it is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I myself am pretty darn good at it , especially if it’s a person I interact with more than a couple times. I’ve just always been around the functioning alcoholic. Many of them. It’s actually inverse of what people think. Catch one who’s been caught without access to it for 5-6 hours , or if they abstain all work day , the One who’s 3 hours past getting off work and hasn’t drank a drop. That’s when they act off. Not while they are gapped back and on the normal numb buzz. Each person is different.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can't claim to be able to tell when a person is drunk. What I can do, and what I'd expect any competent bartender to do, is to keep reasonable track of how much an individual customer has had. Of course, this assumes that the guy wasn't surreptitiously serving himself, but that seems unlikely to have happened during happy hour at a popular bar.

> > > >

> > > > I just don’t know if that’s a standard that can be lived up to at a busy place. One bartender maybe serving 40-50 plus people. Is he/she really supposed to babysit and claim liability for 50 drunks ? If so their pay needs to go up x10

> > >

> > > I think if the guy in question is a co-worker (not a random stranger, probably a friend), and he comes to the bar 10 or 12 times in 3 hours, he'd be likely to stand out. If the bartenders are running a tab for the guy, his consumption is even easier to track. On the other hand, if they're doing him a "favor" and comping his drinks (after all, he's their buddy, we'll let the rich owner buy drinks for the guy), there wouldn't be a tab, or a record of his consumption. Still, its hard for me to believe that he simply wasn't noticed.

> >

> > In my opinion it’s on him 100% unless he’s tied up and a funnel put in his mouth.

>

> No doubt this is true, he made his choices, and he paid dearly. For better or worse, our individual opinions regarding personal responsibility won't carry a lot of weight in the Florida court system.

> Totally aside from the legal issues, do you think that his friends and co-workers feel completely free of responsibility? After all, they're the ones who kept serving drinks to the guy, and he goes out and dies when he crashes his car.

 

@davep043 said:

> Totally aside from the legal issues, do you think that his friends and co-workers feel completely free of responsibility? After all, they're the ones who kept serving drinks to the guy, and he goes out and dies when he crashes his car.

 

But he didn't crash his car. But he clearly said that he had business to take care of. A decision he obviously made long before he started drinking and whatever else he did that day.

[mdgboxx]

Before anyone says: "He was crying out for help at the bar", ask yourself why he didn't go to the police "himself" to get help?

IMHO, his mind was already made up. He was and wanted to be beyond help at that point.

[Ferguson]

Update:

 

Wrongful death case dropped against Woods' girlfriend.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/wrongful-death-case-dropped-against-woods-girlfriend/ar-AAHqIKt?li=BBnba9I

 

[Hawkeye77]

> @Ferguson said:

> Update:

>

> Wrongful death case dropped against Woods' girlfriend.

>

> https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/wrongful-death-case-dropped-against-woods-girlfriend/ar-AAHqIKt?li=BBnba9I

>

Good update!

Tiger was out not long after this thread was on page 2 or 3. He and his sweetie were named as defendants for one reason only, which was media attention. Kind of laughable, but typical, all the hype (intended) when filed and almost no reporting or attention when he was dismissed and now her.