Iron Shafts to reduce draw?

[gfunk021]

I currently play KBS Tour X iron shafts soft stepped one time and am curious if there is a different profile shaft that will reduce the amount of curve. I am always fighting too much of a draw on well struck iron shots. The ball starts on line but draws more than I would like to see. I played x100's years ago but don't know a ton about iron shafts these days. What iron shafts are known for better dispersion/reduce curve?

Thanks for your help

[Stuart_G]

The shaft itself has only a little influence on the curvature of the ball directly. Use a robot to test and a softer (mostly in the tip) shaft can help close the face a little bit IF the player has a fast enough swing AND IF the release is late enough. But for irons, this is typically a really a very small amount - if it exists at all.

 

Now the time one might see some bigger changes is when we start dealing with the subjective aspects on how changes in feel (both the weight feel and stiffness feel) can influence the players swing. Rhythm, tempo, release timing, grip pressure/tension, swing plane, etc... So for some people, too soft might promote more of a draw/hook. For another person too soft might promote a fade and for a 3rd it might not make any difference at all.

 

So I'm sure you'll get plenty of recommendations on what other people have experienced - but you wont get any consistent answers. And you wont know what shaft aspects and characteristics will or will not effect YOUR swing and your results (and what that effect will be) until you go out and just start experimenting with different options yourself.

 

The one generalization that I will throw out is that shaft weight tends to have more of an influence on more people than the flex or stiffness profile. And we can't forget to consider swing weight as well so couldn't hurt to just play around with some lead tape on the head to see what happens.

 

[Valtiel]

I'll echo every thing Stuart said, and also add that you should ignore anyone that simply writes in a shaft name without any questions or qualifiers. I've played the KBS Tour X in the past and the first thing I would do is try something very different, both in terms of profile and in terms of weight. Try something in 120g to see if weight changes anything, and something like a Dynamic Gold 120 or a Project X 6.0 to see if bend profile changes anything. If you're still seeing the same ball flight then its likely a swing issue.

[gfunk021]

Thanks for the advice. Dumb question, but those shafts would be lighter than what I currently play, right? I think the KBS Tour X are 130g shafts. I have a fast swing and right now the only way to get the ball not to over draw, is to hold the face off or swing really smooth. I've always focused on specs of driver shafts and know a lot more about shafts for woods than I do for irons. The last time I was fit for irons was in 2014 when I was coming back after a about 5 years of not really playing. My swing has changed since then. A little bit more about my swing in case it helps with shafts you recommend trying...Driver SS is usually 115-117. I play 714 CB's with and hit my 7 iron about 175 yds (I believe the lofts are a little weaker than most other irons) I usually have a swing path in to out by a few degrees. Does that help or change any thoughts on the above? Thanks again

[Stuart_G]

I believe his recommendations were not shafts that he thought might help - but rather shafts to test to see how weight and stiffness might effect your swing and the results.

[gfunk021]

Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

[Valtiel]

> @Stuart_G said:

> I believe his recommendations were not shafts that he thought might help - but rather shafts to test to see how weight and stiffness might effect your swing and the results.

 

Indeed, otherwise I have recommended maybe going heavier, but since you are already at 130g then there is really nowhere to go. If going lighter truly exacerbates the problem then you know a swing change probably needs to happen. I've also noticed over the years that a ball flight problem related to direction can often be due to a compensation for something that would otherwise produce the opposite result, often swing path related. The classic amateur hacker slice is normally due to a big over the top, out to in move that all but requires the clubface to be open to avoid the huge pull. The guy doesn't need a heavier shaft or a fade biased driver, he just needs to correct the path issue.

 

That is all a roundabout way of saying that heavier shafts/clubs can often cause a drop down in transition that is too flat which causes you to come from the inside, and just like the slice guy above but in reverse, you have to shut the face quickly to keep it from going right, causing a strong draw a lot of the time. Over time you may have gotten used to that with alignment so you're starting on target, but that exaggerated shutting of the face might still be there. Going with a lighter shaft could quickly reveal if you have a path issue or not. Just a theory though, it could be any number of things!

[Howard_Jones]

> @gfunk021 said:

> Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

 

Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.

 

You might also take a look on Grip SHAPE or how much taper it got, so if you play a grip like New Decade, we are at the extreme end for taper, while MCC +4 has less taper and is more strait, and that can help some. Start in that end before you look at equipment issues, its most likely only to active wrists or the way you grip the club, thats the most common reason when to much draw or hooks is the problem.

[Valtiel]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @gfunk021 said:

> > Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

>

> Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and **your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.**

 

This was exactly something I had to fix a few years back. The club had just snuck away from my right fingers and more into my hand during a season and I started fighting a strong draw. Getting that hand back into a more neutral position and drilling that for a bit solved the issue, and I was actually playing KBS Tour 130Xs at the time, hah.

[Howard_Jones]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @gfunk021 said:

> > > Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

> >

> > Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and **your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.**

>

> This was exactly something I had to fix a few years back. The club had just snuck away from my right fingers and more into my hand during a season and I started fighting a strong draw. Getting that hand back into a more neutral position and drilling that for a bit solved the issue, and I was actually playing KBS Tour 130Xs at the time, hah.

 

The strange thing about this is, the same player could have a FADE as ball flight on his driver, and hook his irons, and then we really scratch our heads, but its actually the same problem, and Trackman found out only a few years ago.

 

If the players wrist action is violent enough (aggressive swingers often has a violent wrist action during release), that wrist action will cause a horizontal gear effect on the driver who over rules face to path, while with the iron the horizontal gear effect is not that strong, so face angle is still the ruler and cause a draw or hook.

 

I always start with the grip and the way the player place his hands on the club when unwanted draw or hooks is the problem, and since lots of irons models has a "short butt section" where the grip covers 3-4 steps on the shaft, the lowest hand will have a very small diameter who pronounce more face closing than wanted, so the devil is hidden in the details, look at both actual grip diameter for the lowest hand, and compensate with build up on the steps to straiten the grip out to prevent this or reduce this problem.

 

Asymmetric build up like i explain in this link could be used on all grips, and it does make a difference for this players, so the grip size and how we place our hands on it is where we should start looking.

 

i made this BU for WEDGES before the MCC+4 came to the marked, and it makes a New Decade grip to become almost identical in size and shape as the MCC+4

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7918195#Comment_7918195

 

 

[Kevinnz]

Its either a swing path change (outside in) or release change (late). Or reduce you sw dramatically so the tip of the shaft bends less aka release later.

[Valtiel]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > @gfunk021 said:

> > > > Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

> > >

> > > Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and **your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.**

> >

> > This was exactly something I had to fix a few years back. The club had just snuck away from my right fingers and more into my hand during a season and I started fighting a strong draw. Getting that hand back into a more neutral position and drilling that for a bit solved the issue, and I was actually playing KBS Tour 130Xs at the time, hah.

>

> The strange thing about this is, the same player could have a FADE as ball flight on his driver, and hook his irons, and then we really scratch our heads, but its actually the same problem, and Trackman found out only a few years ago.

>

> If the players wrist action is violent enough (aggressive swingers often has a violent wrist action during release), that wrist action will cause a horizontal gear effect on the driver who over rules face to path, while with the iron the horizontal gear effect is not that strong, so face angle is still the ruler and cause a draw or hook.

>

> I always start with the grip and the way the player place his hands on the club when unwanted draw or hooks is the problem, and since lots of irons models has a "short butt section" where the grip covers 3-4 steps on the shaft, the lowest hand will have a very small diameter who pronounce more face closing than wanted, so the devil is hidden in the details, look at both actual grip diameter for the lowest hand, and compensate with build up on the steps to straiten the grip out to prevent this or reduce this problem.

>

> Asymmetric build up like i explain in this link could be used on all grips, and it does make a difference for this players, so the grip size and how we place our hands on it is where we should start looking.

>

> i made this BU for WEDGES before the MCC+4 came to the marked, and it makes a New Decade grip to become almost identical in size and shape as the MCC+4

>

> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7918195#Comment_7918195

>

>

 

What is the mechanism of the wrist induced gear effects you're talking about here? That is a pretty interesting discovery.

 

Regarding grips and grip size, its funny...i've posted this before but I have found that anything that attempts to reduce any naturally occurring parts of the swing (release, face closure etc) has the opposite effect on me. If you give me one of those MCC +4 grips, I will end up with a two way miss because the feeling of extra size in my otherwise neutral right hand tells my brain "you won't be able to square the clubface" and thus the bigger grip makes me strengthen my right hand and, release harder, and even restrict forearm rotation in the backswing to keep the clubface shut. Then I end up having to turn harder and faster to get out in front of the shut clubface to keep it from hooking and it turns into a mess, hah. On the other hand, anything that emphasizes those natural swing events (closed clubface angle, smaller grips) I have no trouble with. I can grip a club 10*+ closed and still hit a cut. But give me a club that sits too open and i'll do the same things as with the +4 grips above and i'll end up with a big two way miss. It became all about finding what I felt comfortable releasing naturally with, without manipulation.

[Howard_Jones]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > @gfunk021 said:

> > > > > Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

> > > >

> > > > Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and **your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.**

> > >

> > > This was exactly something I had to fix a few years back. The club had just snuck away from my right fingers and more into my hand during a season and I started fighting a strong draw. Getting that hand back into a more neutral position and drilling that for a bit solved the issue, and I was actually playing KBS Tour 130Xs at the time, hah.

> >

> > The strange thing about this is, the same player could have a FADE as ball flight on his driver, and hook his irons, and then we really scratch our heads, but its actually the same problem, and Trackman found out only a few years ago.

> >

> > If the players wrist action is violent enough (aggressive swingers often has a violent wrist action during release), that wrist action will cause a horizontal gear effect on the driver who over rules face to path, while with the iron the horizontal gear effect is not that strong, so face angle is still the ruler and cause a draw or hook.

> >

> > I always start with the grip and the way the player place his hands on the club when unwanted draw or hooks is the problem, and since lots of irons models has a "short butt section" where the grip covers 3-4 steps on the shaft, the lowest hand will have a very small diameter who pronounce more face closing than wanted, so the devil is hidden in the details, look at both actual grip diameter for the lowest hand, and compensate with build up on the steps to straiten the grip out to prevent this or reduce this problem.

> >

> > Asymmetric build up like i explain in this link could be used on all grips, and it does make a difference for this players, so the grip size and how we place our hands on it is where we should start looking.

> >

> > i made this BU for WEDGES before the MCC+4 came to the marked, and it makes a New Decade grip to become almost identical in size and shape as the MCC+4

> >

> > https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7918195#Comment_7918195

> >

> >

>

> What is the mechanism of the wrist induced gear effects you're talking about here? That is a pretty interesting discovery.

>

> Regarding grips and grip size, its funny...i've posted this before but I have found that anything that attempts to reduce any naturally occurring parts of the swing (release, face closure etc) has the opposite effect on me. If you give me one of those MCC +4 grips, I will end up with a two way miss because the feeling of extra size in my otherwise neutral right hand tells my brain "you won't be able to square the clubface" and thus the bigger grip makes me strengthen my right hand and, release harder, and even restrict forearm rotation in the backswing to keep the clubface shut. Then I end up having to turn harder and faster to get out in front of the shut clubface to keep it from hooking and it turns into a mess, hah. On the other hand, anything that emphasizes those natural swing events (closed clubface angle, smaller grips) I have no trouble with. I can grip a club 10*+ closed and still hit a cut. But give me a club that sits too open and i'll do the same things as with the +4 grips above and i'll end up with a big two way miss. It became all about finding what I felt comfortable releasing naturally with, without manipulation.

 

i guess you know what gear effects is when we talk horizontal or vertical gear effects, and in this case, face closing is fast or violent enough to make a horizontal gear effect, its not more advanced than that, so even a face closed to path who should give us a draw, becomes a fade. If you are able to look up Trackman newsletter #9 from 2013 you will find more about it. (no longer available on Trackmans web)

 

 

 

 

[jj9000]

If I you're looking for shafts that go dead @ss straight...look at testing some C-Taper S+ 125 or C-Taper X 130.

 

I had the same issue you have for years...popped in some C-Taper S+ and the ball flew dead straight.

[Cwebb]

I would first try a Dynamic Gold in 'S' flex, to see if a bend profile that is different in it being butt soft and tip stiff in comparison, changes anything in your ball flight. The KBS Tour 'X' is butt stiff and softer in the tip, which can promote more draw for some players....and if it produces more spin in general, which it can for some, it will accentuate any curve that is happening.

 

If that doesn't work, then try a lighter weight shaft, but make sure there is enough weight in the head. Be prepared to do head weight additions while testing. A lighter shaft can promote a less inside out path for some players, thus reducing a draw

[Valtiel]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > > @gfunk021 said:

> > > > > > Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and **your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.**

> > > >

> > > > This was exactly something I had to fix a few years back. The club had just snuck away from my right fingers and more into my hand during a season and I started fighting a strong draw. Getting that hand back into a more neutral position and drilling that for a bit solved the issue, and I was actually playing KBS Tour 130Xs at the time, hah.

> > >

> > > The strange thing about this is, the same player could have a FADE as ball flight on his driver, and hook his irons, and then we really scratch our heads, but its actually the same problem, and Trackman found out only a few years ago.

> > >

> > > If the players wrist action is violent enough (aggressive swingers often has a violent wrist action during release), that wrist action will cause a horizontal gear effect on the driver who over rules face to path, while with the iron the horizontal gear effect is not that strong, so face angle is still the ruler and cause a draw or hook.

> > >

> > > I always start with the grip and the way the player place his hands on the club when unwanted draw or hooks is the problem, and since lots of irons models has a "short butt section" where the grip covers 3-4 steps on the shaft, the lowest hand will have a very small diameter who pronounce more face closing than wanted, so the devil is hidden in the details, look at both actual grip diameter for the lowest hand, and compensate with build up on the steps to straiten the grip out to prevent this or reduce this problem.

> > >

> > > Asymmetric build up like i explain in this link could be used on all grips, and it does make a difference for this players, so the grip size and how we place our hands on it is where we should start looking.

> > >

> > > i made this BU for WEDGES before the MCC+4 came to the marked, and it makes a New Decade grip to become almost identical in size and shape as the MCC+4

> > >

> > > https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7918195#Comment_7918195

> > >

> > >

> >

> > What is the mechanism of the wrist induced gear effects you're talking about here? That is a pretty interesting discovery.

> >

> > Regarding grips and grip size, its funny...i've posted this before but I have found that anything that attempts to reduce any naturally occurring parts of the swing (release, face closure etc) has the opposite effect on me. If you give me one of those MCC +4 grips, I will end up with a two way miss because the feeling of extra size in my otherwise neutral right hand tells my brain "you won't be able to square the clubface" and thus the bigger grip makes me strengthen my right hand and, release harder, and even restrict forearm rotation in the backswing to keep the clubface shut. Then I end up having to turn harder and faster to get out in front of the shut clubface to keep it from hooking and it turns into a mess, hah. On the other hand, anything that emphasizes those natural swing events (closed clubface angle, smaller grips) I have no trouble with. I can grip a club 10*+ closed and still hit a cut. But give me a club that sits too open and i'll do the same things as with the +4 grips above and i'll end up with a big two way miss. It became all about finding what I felt comfortable releasing naturally with, without manipulation.

>

> i guess you know what gear effects is when we talk horizontal or vertical gear effects, and in this case, face closing is fast or violent enough to make a horizontal gear effect, its not more advanced than that, so even a face closed to path who should give us a draw, becomes a fade. If you are able to look up Trackman newsletter #9 from 2013 you will find more about it. (no longer available on Trackmans web)

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

Oh interesting! That certainly would take a violent release to cause that, I wouldn't have thought the ball was on the face long enough for something like that to happen, cool! When you said "wrist action" in the original post, I was thinking of clubhead speed, not rate of face closure.

[Howard_Jones]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > > > @gfunk021 said:

> > > > > > > Yep, just try something a lot different to see if it changes anything. I'm sure it's mostly my swing, but someone told me that the kick point in KBS is a lot different than KBS and that may have something to do with it, or at least be making it more extreme.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ball flight / draw or fade is a question of face angle vs club path, and you are closing the face to much, its that simple, so take a look at your hands, and **your right/lowest hand who might be "to strong" and cause more face closing that you need or want.**

> > > > >

> > > > > This was exactly something I had to fix a few years back. The club had just snuck away from my right fingers and more into my hand during a season and I started fighting a strong draw. Getting that hand back into a more neutral position and drilling that for a bit solved the issue, and I was actually playing KBS Tour 130Xs at the time, hah.

> > > >

> > > > The strange thing about this is, the same player could have a FADE as ball flight on his driver, and hook his irons, and then we really scratch our heads, but its actually the same problem, and Trackman found out only a few years ago.

> > > >

> > > > If the players wrist action is violent enough (aggressive swingers often has a violent wrist action during release), that wrist action will cause a horizontal gear effect on the driver who over rules face to path, while with the iron the horizontal gear effect is not that strong, so face angle is still the ruler and cause a draw or hook.

> > > >

> > > > I always start with the grip and the way the player place his hands on the club when unwanted draw or hooks is the problem, and since lots of irons models has a "short butt section" where the grip covers 3-4 steps on the shaft, the lowest hand will have a very small diameter who pronounce more face closing than wanted, so the devil is hidden in the details, look at both actual grip diameter for the lowest hand, and compensate with build up on the steps to straiten the grip out to prevent this or reduce this problem.

> > > >

> > > > Asymmetric build up like i explain in this link could be used on all grips, and it does make a difference for this players, so the grip size and how we place our hands on it is where we should start looking.

> > > >

> > > > i made this BU for WEDGES before the MCC+4 came to the marked, and it makes a New Decade grip to become almost identical in size and shape as the MCC+4

> > > >

> > > > https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7918195#Comment_7918195

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > What is the mechanism of the wrist induced gear effects you're talking about here? That is a pretty interesting discovery.

> > >

> > > Regarding grips and grip size, its funny...i've posted this before but I have found that anything that attempts to reduce any naturally occurring parts of the swing (release, face closure etc) has the opposite effect on me. If you give me one of those MCC +4 grips, I will end up with a two way miss because the feeling of extra size in my otherwise neutral right hand tells my brain "you won't be able to square the clubface" and thus the bigger grip makes me strengthen my right hand and, release harder, and even restrict forearm rotation in the backswing to keep the clubface shut. Then I end up having to turn harder and faster to get out in front of the shut clubface to keep it from hooking and it turns into a mess, hah. On the other hand, anything that emphasizes those natural swing events (closed clubface angle, smaller grips) I have no trouble with. I can grip a club 10*+ closed and still hit a cut. But give me a club that sits too open and i'll do the same things as with the +4 grips above and i'll end up with a big two way miss. It became all about finding what I felt comfortable releasing naturally with, without manipulation.

> >

> > i guess you know what gear effects is when we talk horizontal or vertical gear effects, and in this case, face closing is fast or violent enough to make a horizontal gear effect, its not more advanced than that, so even a face closed to path who should give us a draw, becomes a fade. If you are able to look up Trackman newsletter #9 from 2013 you will find more about it. (no longer available on Trackmans web)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Oh interesting! That certainly would take a violent release to cause that, I wouldn't have thought the ball was on the face long enough for something like that to happen, cool! When you said "wrist action" in the original post, I was thinking of clubhead speed, not rate of face closure.

 

Thats a can of worms....

...what can possibly happen during such a short period of time as the contact time between face and ball?

Both horizontal gear effects from heel or toe impact, or vertical gear effects from low or high impact happens during that split second, so the time is short, but long enough for all this to happen.

 

 

 

[ChipNRun]

Take a look at the Golfworks shaft offerings. Like clubheads, the Maltby people have a four-character Maltby Playability Factor for shafts. The characters specify:

1. Club needed for 150 yards. 1 = 4i or longer... 3 = 6 iron ... 5 = 8i or less.

2. Emphasis on Distance, Control, or Both.

3. Preferred Trajectory: 1 = Low / 2 = Medium / 3 = High.

4. Correction Factor: S = Slice / M = None / **H = Hook.**

 

For irons, examples of **3B2H** shafts would be NS Pro 8950GH R.Flex and KBS Tour 90 R.Flex. Examples of **4B1H** would be NS Pro 8950GH S.flex and SteelFiber95 S.Flex.

[phatchrisrules]

Anything more butt-stiff can potentially have the affect of slowing down the hands. Look towards a KBS, Project X, or Modus 130.

[TLT_Dan]

I would consider getting the lie angle flattened a degree or 2. If you feel like you are executing a good swing, then the first look I would have is lie angle.

 

Toe up? Face is already aimed slightly left.

[ian-500]

I had a similar problem and read that a thicker grip could be a simple solution. I now have mid-size grips on all of my irons. Seems to have worked so far.