$-taper problems - is the shaft counter-weighted?

[ndgc99]

Just getting into club building for my own use (not professionally) and wanted to check with the experts on an issue I am having with KBS $-taper shafts. I got a set of Apex Pro irons with $-taper stiff shafts in them. I did not do a fitting since I have historically fit into standard loft, lie and lengths across multiple manufacturers (Ping, TaylorMade, Miura). In the past, I have had success with KBS Tour stiff shafts and most recently have been playing Nippon Modus3 stiff 120 in a Callaway Apex MB head. I called a local club fitter because I cannot find the bottom of my swing with the Apex Pros - they feel incredibly head heavy. The fitter told me the $-taper is counter-balanced and that is just the feel I will get as long as I use the shaft. He recommended replacing with C-taper or Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400s to get the feel I am accustomed to. Before I start the process of pulling and replacing the $-taper shafts, I wanted to see if the community had a perspective on this issue.

[Valtiel]

> @ndgc99 said:

> Just getting into club building for my own use (not professionally) and wanted to check with the experts on an issue I am having with KBS $-taper shafts. I got a set of Apex Pro irons with $-taper stiff shafts in them. I did not do a fitting since I have historically fit into standard loft, lie and lengths across multiple manufacturers (Ping, TaylorMade, Miura). In the past, I have had success with KBS Tour stiff shafts and most recently have been playing Nippon Modus3 stiff 120 in a Callaway Apex MB head. I called a local club fitter because I cannot find the bottom of my swing with the Apex Pros - they feel incredibly head heavy. The fitter told me the $-taper is counter-balanced and that is just the feel I will get as long as I use the shaft. He recommended replacing with C-taper or Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400s to get the feel I am accustomed to. Before I start the process of pulling and replacing the $-taper shafts, I wanted to see if the community had a perspective on this issue.

 

That is interesting as this all seems completely backwards, hah. First off, $-tapers only have a slightly higher than normal balance point and wouldn't really qualify as "counterbalanced", The KBS Tours have a higher balance point and WOULD be considered counter balanced shafts. The Modus3 120 Stiff has a slightly higher balance point as well and would qualify as more "counterbalanced" than the $-tapers, although only by a tiny bit (please bear in mind that "counterbalanced" is not a binary thing where a shaft either is or isn't, its a bit of a sliding scale).

 

Second, counterbalancing would actually make a club feel LESS head heavy overall, so what your fitter said was backwards AND his recommendation was also backwards as both the C-Tapers and Dynamic Golds are both NOT counterbalanced and would thus make a feeling of head heaviness even worse, especially with the Dynamic Golds as they are 10 grams heavier than what you are playing. So with all that said...I suspect there is something else going on here not related to the shafts as the balance point of the $-tapers and the Modus3 120s is close enough as to not create such a problem. Can you check the overall length and swingweight of the clubs? It sounds to me like they might simply be heavier or slightly over length.

[indianalawnguy]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @ndgc99 said:

> > Just getting into club building for my own use (not professionally) and wanted to check with the experts on an issue I am having with KBS $-taper shafts. I got a set of Apex Pro irons with $-taper stiff shafts in them. I did not do a fitting since I have historically fit into standard loft, lie and lengths across multiple manufacturers (Ping, TaylorMade, Miura). In the past, I have had success with KBS Tour stiff shafts and most recently have been playing Nippon Modus3 stiff 120 in a Callaway Apex MB head. I called a local club fitter because I cannot find the bottom of my swing with the Apex Pros - they feel incredibly head heavy. The fitter told me the $-taper is counter-balanced and that is just the feel I will get as long as I use the shaft. He recommended replacing with C-taper or Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400s to get the feel I am accustomed to. Before I start the process of pulling and replacing the $-taper shafts, I wanted to see if the community had a perspective on this issue.

>

> That is interesting as this all seems completely backwards, hah. First off, $-tapers only have a slightly higher than normal balance point and wouldn't really qualify as "counterbalanced", The KBS Tours have a higher balance point and WOULD be considered counter balanced shafts. The Modus3 120 Stiff also has a slightly higher balance point as well and would qualify as more "counterbalanced" than the $-tapers, although only by a tiny bit (please bear in mind that "counterbalanced" is not a binary thing where a shaft either is or isn't, its a bit of a sliding scale).

>

> Second, counterbalancing would actually make a club feel LESS head heavy overall, so what your fitter said was backwards AND his recommendation was also backwards as both the C-Tapers and Dynamic Golds are both NOT counterbalanced and would thus make a feeling of head heaviness even worse, especially with the Dynamic Golds as they are 10 grams heavier than what you are playing. So with all that said...I suspect there is something else going on here not related to the shafts as the balance point of the $-tapers and the Modus3 120s is close enough as to not create such a problem. Can you check the overall length and swingweight of the clubs? It sounds to me like they might simply be heavier or slightly over length.

 

^^^ exactly

[ndgc99]

Thanks, super helpful. Showing my naïveté here. I’ll swingweight and measure them, then get on a trackman and try to come up with a better plan.

[Valtiel]

> @ndgc99 said:

> Thanks, super helpful. Showing my naïveté here. I’ll swingweight and measure them, then get on a trackman and try to come up with a better plan.

 

Oh no, no naivete at all! Most of that info is not made readily available, least of all by the manufacturers. Plus your fitter, someone you hope would be trust worthy and knowledgeable, gave you seemingly counter-intuitive advice. Definitely let us know what you come up with in terms of numbers, and if you can measure another set for length and swingweight that you didn't have a problem with (assuming you have one). Good luck!

[Tommyj]

There should be virtually no difference in feel between a club shafted with the $-Taper and the standard KBS Tour. Weight and balance are almost identical with the $-Taper tuned for somewhat lower launch and spin. They would also produce almost identical swing weights. All KBS shafts will produce slightly lower swing weights relative to something like a Dynamic Gold. I spoke with a KBS tech rep and he strongly corrected me when I referred to KBS shafts as being counterbalanced, they don't consider them as such. If you feel your Apex Pros are head heavy it is more likely that they were intentionally swing weighted to feel that way, that wouldn't be caused by the $-Taper shaft. I would first put them on a SW scale to see where they are, then, if too heavy, pull one shaft and see if there is any additional weight in there.

 

And your fitter is completely wrong, replacing the $-Taper with a DG will increase your swing weight by probably at least 2 points.

 

In my comments I've assumed that your new set is the same length as you prior clubs. Obviously if the shafts are longer this will contribute to the heavier feel.

[RainShadow]

OP, Are your Apex Pros from Callaway, or second hand?

[ndgc99]

> @RainShadow said:

> OP, Are your Apex Pros from Callaway, or second hand?

 

Callaway built them. Ordered through my club pro shop.

[ndgc99]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @ndgc99 said:

> > Thanks, super helpful. Showing my naïveté here. I’ll swingweight and measure them, then get on a trackman and try to come up with a better plan.

>

> Oh no, no naivete at all! Most of that info is not made readily available, least of all by the manufacturers. Plus your fitter, someone you hope would be trust worthy and knowledgeable, gave you seemingly counter-intuitive advice. Definitely let us know what you come up with in terms of numbers, and if you can measure another set for length and swingweight that you didn't have a problem with (assuming you have one). Good luck!

 

Good suggestions. Maltby swingweight scale en route from GolfWorks, I'll report back once I get the numbers for the Apex Pros. Unfortunately, only have P790s with Modus3 120 shafts to compare swingweights against - loaned out the Apex MBs and Miuras to friends in PA and TX (I'm in Tahoe) - and I'm guessing those hollow heads may not be a fair comparison to the forged Apex Pros. But maybe that is irrelevant for purposes of swingweights?

[Valtiel]

> @ndgc99 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @ndgc99 said:

> > > Thanks, super helpful. Showing my naïveté here. I’ll swingweight and measure them, then get on a trackman and try to come up with a better plan.

> >

> > Oh no, no naivete at all! Most of that info is not made readily available, least of all by the manufacturers. Plus your fitter, someone you hope would be trust worthy and knowledgeable, gave you seemingly counter-intuitive advice. Definitely let us know what you come up with in terms of numbers, and if you can measure another set for length and swingweight that you didn't have a problem with (assuming you have one). Good luck!

>

> Good suggestions. Maltby swingweight scale en route from GolfWorks, I'll report back once I get the numbers for the Apex Pros. Unfortunately, only have P790s with Modus3 120 shafts to compare swingweights against - loaned out the Apex MBs and Miuras to friends in PA and TX (I'm in Tahoe) - and I'm guessing those hollow heads may not be a fair comparison to the forged Apex Pros. But maybe that is irrelevant for purposes of swingweights?

 

Not completely irrelevant, no. If those heads feel good to you in terms of heft and swingweight then they can still be used for comparison purposes, especially since they have a similar weight shaft.

[buckeyefl]

> @Tommyj said:

> There should be virtually no difference in feel between a club shafted with the $-Taper and the standard KBS Tour. Weight and balance are almost identical with the $-Taper tuned for somewhat lower launch and spin. They would also produce almost identical swing weights. All KBS shafts will produce slightly lower swing weights relative to something like a Dynamic Gold. I spoke with a KBS tech rep and he strongly corrected me when I referred to KBS shafts as being counterbalanced, they don't consider them as such. If you feel your Apex Pros are head heavy it is more likely that they were intentionally swing weighted to feel that way, that wouldn't be caused by the $-Taper shaft. I would first put them on a SW scale to see where they are, then, if too heavy, pull one shaft and see if there is any additional weight in there.

>

> And your fitter is completely wrong, replacing the $-Taper with a DG will increase your swing weight by probably at least 2 points.

>

> In my comments I've assumed that your new set is the same length as you prior clubs. Obviously if the shafts are longer this will contribute to the heavier feel.

 

Just reshafted my back up set ( identical in every way to my usual set which have KBS tours) with $ tapers and have zero issues. Took them straight to the course with zero issues. Quite an easy switch which suggests they are very similar. I don't sw my clubs so don't know if they are different there but otherwise feel nearly identical so I'm curious if you are correct about them adding weight.

[Tommyj]

> @ndgc99 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @ndgc99 said:

> > > Thanks, super helpful. Showing my naïveté here. I’ll swingweight and measure them, then get on a trackman and try to come up with a better plan.

> >

> > Oh no, no naivete at all! Most of that info is not made readily available, least of all by the manufacturers. Plus your fitter, someone you hope would be trust worthy and knowledgeable, gave you seemingly counter-intuitive advice. Definitely let us know what you come up with in terms of numbers, and if you can measure another set for length and swingweight that you didn't have a problem with (assuming you have one). Good luck!

>

> Good suggestions. Maltby swingweight scale en route from GolfWorks, I'll report back once I get the numbers for the Apex Pros. Unfortunately, only have P790s with Modus3 120 shafts to compare swingweights against - loaned out the Apex MBs and Miuras to friends in PA and TX (I'm in Tahoe) - and I'm guessing those hollow heads may not be a fair comparison to the forged Apex Pros. But maybe that is irrelevant for purposes of swingweights?

Most iron heads are pretty close in weight, regardless of whether they are blades, CB, hollow with foam, etc. a 7 iron head typically weighs somewhere around 268g. So your P790s should be very close in SW to your Apex MBs if they have the same shaft, same weight of grip and built to the same length.

 

[Hot Rod 71]

> @Tommyj said:

> > @ndgc99 said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > @ndgc99 said:

> > > > Thanks, super helpful. Showing my naïveté here. I’ll swingweight and measure them, then get on a trackman and try to come up with a better plan.

> > >

> > > Oh no, no naivete at all! Most of that info is not made readily available, least of all by the manufacturers. Plus your fitter, someone you hope would be trust worthy and knowledgeable, gave you seemingly counter-intuitive advice. Definitely let us know what you come up with in terms of numbers, and if you can measure another set for length and swingweight that you didn't have a problem with (assuming you have one). Good luck!

> >

> > Good suggestions. Maltby swingweight scale en route from GolfWorks, I'll report back once I get the numbers for the Apex Pros. Unfortunately, only have P790s with Modus3 120 shafts to compare swingweights against - loaned out the Apex MBs and Miuras to friends in PA and TX (I'm in Tahoe) - and I'm guessing those hollow heads may not be a fair comparison to the forged Apex Pros. But maybe that is irrelevant for purposes of swingweights?

> Most iron heads are pretty close in weight, regardless of whether they are blades, CB, hollow with foam, etc. **a 7 iron head typically weighs somewhere around 268g**. So your P790s should be very close in SW to your Apex MBs if they have the same shaft, same weight of grip and built to the same length.

>

 

To expand on this point a bit - iron heads are progressively weighted. Each head from the 3 iron down to the PW is heavier in ~7 gram increments.

[peltopiri]

Old topic, but please share a follow-up.
I also struggled with the heavy head feeling in the $-taper S+ 125g. I’ve tried changing SW between C8-D4, but the weight balance of the shaft is just off. As if the weight is in the wrong place. This probably is the high balance point feature? 
I know KBS has released a $-taper HT (heavy tip) version, maybe that would be the answer? I’m now playing DG S400 but still searching for the right shaft..

Best shaft I have found is an old 90’ Royal Precision Rifle, but I only got one. Someone mentioned that KBS Tour should be the modern day replacement, but after trying KBS Tours, there is the same balance point issue (not as bad as the $-tapers).

[RichieHunt]

Interesting.  I have the S+ $ tapers.  I first had them in a set of Honma's and now have them in a set of New Level 902 Forged irons.

 

I never had the 'heavy head feeling.'  I don't SW match my clubs.  I MOI match them and had to add quite a bit of lead tape to get the clubs at 2,725.  Typically I'll get 1 or 2 clubs that I don't need to add weight to the head at all to get them to that 2,725 mark.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[peltopiri]

Do you play regular length? I guess MOI matching could work better with these high balance point shafts. I’ve just tinkered the SW by feel (started from C8 and added lead tape) and then measured it. For me $-tapers and normal D2 was way too much. I’ve got my S400 at D3 and SW feels lighter.   Can you measure your SW? I think i will give these another try with different club heads.

[Thayneil]

19 hours ago, peltopiri said:

Old topic, but please share a follow-up.
I also struggled with the heavy head feeling in the $-taper S+ 125g. I’ve tried changing SW between C8-D4, but the weight balance of the shaft is just off. As if the weight is in the wrong place. This probably is the high balance point feature? 
I know KBS has released a $-taper HT (heavy tip) version, maybe that would be the answer? I’m now playing DG S400 but still searching for the right shaft..

Best shaft I have found is an old 90’ Royal Precision Rifle, but I only got one. Someone mentioned that KBS Tour should be the modern day replacement, but after trying KBS Tours, there is the same balance point issue (not as bad as the $-tapers).

The  FST pros   115 and 125 seem similar to the old Rifles

 

Flexes are around  3.0 4.0  4.8  5.5 (A  to X) for the  115 and  5.0 6.0 for the 125 S and X

 

This info gained from the Hireko DSFI  and  using the KBS Tour  4.0 as a base comparing  Butt cpms only

 

All aproximate 

 

 

[peltopiri]

Too bad those are available parallel only.

[dmeeksDC]

I don’t find $Tapers feel head heavy but they do feel noticeably stiffer to me vs the Tours of the same weight.