Serious Jack Nicklaus question, 1-iron @ Pebble

[RobotDoctor]

There is such a huge difference between today's equipment compared to the equipment of 40-50 years ago. For that matter, 60 years ago. Equipment between the 1950's and 1960's were pretty much comparable. The balls today go much farther. Irons are stronger loft. Shafts are better, now flighted. "Woods" today are made of Titanium/Carbon Fiber/what other high tech widget added and are paired with an ultra high tech and light weight golf shaft. Back in the day the most sought after woods are the MacGregor pro line from the early 1950s. Here is my 1953 MacGregor M09 LFF (White/Red/White insert and from the stance) and my 1950 MacGregor 693. Just for nostalgia's sake. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nomad Golfer]

Getting double spacing on my sig lines which look untidy, missing something on format?. Have removed in the interim

[rex235]

NZ-

Am pretty sure you meant Gene Sarazens shot on #15 at the Masters in 1935.

Sarazen also had a hole in one #7 at Troon during the 1973 British Open, at the age of 71...

[resnor]

Not all modern irons have jacked up lofts, I'd assume? My "modern" irons are the original forged Nike blades. Those are all traditional lofts. Everyone talks about jacked up lofts...but are the blades the pros using jacked up?

[James the Hogan Fan]

> @resnor said:

> Not all modern irons have jacked up lofts, I'd assume? My "modern" irons are the original forged Nike blades. Those are all traditional lofts. Everyone talks about jacked up lofts...but are the blades the pros using jacked up?

 

Depends. I’ve seen Tiger’s lofts published somewhere and they are quite traditional. (Defining traditional is a different matter... a 9-iron was at one time 50° I’m told... everything is jacked up by that standard.)

[wkuo3]

> @dcopp7 said:

> How could Jack, famous for being a big hitter, only hit a 1-iron 215 yards? I carry a 23° 5 iron and can hit it 210. I don't get it. So his 5 iron was his 170yd club??? Tell me your thoughts.

 

Nice Bait question.

Certainly you'd known the answer and expect the answers thus far.

Jack, was the longest hitter in his peer since he picked up the game at 10. His first mentor , Jack Grout said once, if the kid has the distance and hit it all over the place, then it's easy to center the shots. Can't work with someone whom does not have the distance.

So was Ben Hogan, He was one of the longer hitter when he was younger, so was Sam Snead.......

One can learn how to chip and putt, but the distance is not transferable, either one has it or not.

Jack's record speaks for the man.

I suspect the human capacity has reached near our limit in recent years. From the frequent injury sustained by the younger golfers ( 30-40 age group ), we had pretty much worked our body to the limit.

I would not worry about lengthening the golf course. Just allow the type of equipment to be played on certain golf courses, and everything will even out.

BTW, your 5 iron today is probably equal to the 3 iron in the 70's and the "nuked" modern golf ball will equal to another club or two. The question is, can you hit the 1 iron from the 70's as long ?

[NRJyzr]

> @SteveNZ said:

> And that MacGregor ball was pretty crappy too - there's an article on the internet about it somewhere. Even Jack didn't like using it much. That's a great video, but it almost understates how great a shot it was - the applause almost sounds polite!

 

Funny thing about Jack and the MacGregor ball... I used to speak with a former MacGregor rep, retired, who worked at a 2nd Swing location around the Twin Cities. This would've been 15+ years ago. He swore that, during a visit to the Titleist ball plant on one occasion, he saw golfballs produced, stamped with the MacGregor name. When he asked about that, he was told they were for Jack.

 

I'm not going to argue the accuracy of that, just wanted to toss it out there. But I will say that nothing else this gent told me turned out to be junk. Y'all can take it for what it's worth. :)

 

Another item about Jack's distance... I remember reading quotes from him some 20 years ago or so, where he would talk about hitting his 8 iron 145. When asked, he said he *could* hit it 175, but he didn't see why he should.

 

>

> I know there's Craig Wood's shot at the Masters and all, but you can make a pretty good case that this is the best shot ever hit in a major.

>

 

 

It's already been mentioned this was Gene Sarazen, but I wanted to mention a tangential point about that shot... in a Golf Digest or Golf Mag interview in the late 90s or 2000, David Duval mentioned that 4 wood albatross. He pointed out it "would be a 3 iron now."

 

Why I find that interesting... the 3 iron Duval was using was probably around 20* loft (he was still with Titleist) or so. The 4 wood that Sarazen hit, it would've been around 20* or 21* loft. :)

 

couple random thoughts as I do journal entries....

[RobotDoctor]

That would not surprise me, regarding the Titleist ball stamped MacGregor for Nicklaus. I am sure silent deals like this were done as a matter of consideration for the elite athletes of a given sport. Another instance would the the forged Cobra irons Greg Norman used after the Spaulding contract expired. Norman's irons were forged by MacGregor and Cobra stampings added. Make no mistake Norman played MacGregor irons because at the time MacGregor forged irons were among the best in the game.

[gsea33]

Well maybe you're too young to know these things. But it was the same way Hogan could hit a 6,7,or 8 iron from 150 and put them all within 10ft.

[Pepperturbo]

> @dcopp7 said:

> How could Jack, famous for being a big hitter, only hit a 1-iron 215 yards? I carry a 23° 5 iron and can hit it 210. I don't get it. So his 5 iron was his 170yd club??? Tell me your thoughts.

 

Back then when that shot was made typically 1 iron was like a 3 wood, at 15*-16*. Not sure of the shaft but the shot was into a breeze. Ball composition, clubhead design and shaft profile always play roles in the distance we hit a given club. I've played real old blades with old shafts and own an 18* MacGregor 2 iron and 16* Mizuno 1 iron butter knife. They don't travel nearly as far with Balata as opposed to my current 17* 2 iron with PX 5.5 and any ProV ball.

[dlygrisse]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @SteveNZ said:

> > And that MacGregor ball was pretty crappy too - there's an article on the internet about it somewhere. Even Jack didn't like using it much. That's a great video, but it almost understates how great a shot it was - the applause almost sounds polite!

>

> Funny thing about Jack and the MacGregor ball... I used to speak with a former MacGregor rep, retired, who worked at a 2nd Swing location around the Twin Cities. This would've been 15+ years ago. He swore that, during a visit to the Titleist ball plant on one occasion, he saw golfballs produced, stamped with the MacGregor name. When he asked about that, he was told they were for Jack.

>

> I'm not going to argue the accuracy of that, just wanted to toss it out there. But I will say that nothing else this gent told me turned out to be junk. Y'all can take it for what it's worth. :)

>

> Another item about Jack's distance... I remember reading quotes from him some 20 years ago or so, where he would talk about hitting his 8 iron 145. When asked, he said he *could* hit it 175, but he didn't see why he should.

>

> >

> > I know there's Craig Wood's shot at the Masters and all, but you can make a pretty good case that this is the best shot ever hit in a major.

> >

>

>

> It's already been mentioned this was Gene Sarazen, but I wanted to mention a tangential point about that shot... in a Golf Digest or Golf Mag interview in the late 90s or 2000, David Duval mentioned that 4 wood albatross. He pointed out it "would be a 3 iron now."

>

> Why I find that interesting... the 3 iron Duval was using was probably around 20* loft (he was still with Titleist) or so. The 4 wood that Sarazen hit, it would've been around 20* or 21* loft. :)

>

> couple random thoughts as I do journal entries....

 

Very interesting, I have always wondered this. There was an article or interview, that I remember, with Wieskpof, who said he always suspected Jack got some 'special balls" from MacGregor. Also when when Frank Thomas told Jack how horrible the Mac ball was, he just smiled.

 

It would be cool if there was a close up high def pic of one of his balls...golf balls....maybe from the museum. Anyone remember when Titleist went to the new dimple patterns? Than made a HUGE difference in how the ball performed.

[Pepperturbo]

Wasn't Nicklaus' famous 1 iron shot on #17 in "72" for the US Open? The Balata ball wasn't produced till the early 1980s as was the Professional 90/100. The Professional balls were Balata with more durable covers. I happen to learn the game with Balata and Professional 100's.

[SteveNZ]

> @rex235 said:

> NZ-

> Am pretty sure you meant Gene Sarazens shot on #15 at the Masters in 1935.

> Sarazen also had a hole in one #7 at Troon during the 1973 British Open, at the age of 71...

Doh. You are right of course. Craig Wood was of course the 'victim' of that shot.

[SteveNZ]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> Wasn't Nicklaus' famous 1 iron shot on #17 in "72" for the US Open? The Balata ball wasn't produced till the early 1980s as was the Professional 90/100. The Professional balls were Balata with more durable covers. I happen to learn the game with Balata and Professional 100's.

Balata golf balls have been around since the early 1900s. The Professional had an elastomer cover, not balata.

[teevons]

think I 've told this story several times, MY in-law grew up a mile from Titleist plant, he remembers seeing Macgregor balls stamped Nicklaus when touring plant

[dcopp7]

> @wkuo3 said:

The question is, can you hit the 1 iron from the 70's as long ?

 

I don't own a 1-iron. Sorry. My question was simply, if his 1 iron carry was 210ish, figuring 10 yard gaps for each iron thereafter, his numbers would seem really low. Sorry I offended some people by asking....jeez

 

[NRJyzr]

> @dcopp7 said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> The question is, can you hit the 1 iron from the 70's as long ?

>

> I don't own a 1-iron. Sorry. My question was simply, if his 1 iron carry was 210ish, figuring 10 yard gaps for each iron thereafter, his numbers would seem really low. Sorry I offended some people by asking....jeez

>

 

 

dcopp, I hope you'll forgive some of the tone in this thread. I would guess some folks assumed you were trolling, and may not have made the connection to your activities in the Classic section. :)

 

The discussion about Jack and the amount of effort he'd use on a routine basis brings to mind another point, that being discussions or comments about the golf ball we see popping up from time to time. It seems like Jack is held up as a standard in these cases, using his classic distances as evidence of what they see as problems with the modern ball.

 

Where I see the disconnect is attempting to correlate results from players swinging close to 100% in current Tour golf to results from players who were admittedly leaving a not insignificant amount of speed in reserve.

 

Just a comment, which I make with apologies for seeming to want to derail the discussion. In spite of how it may seem, it's not my intention.

[wkuo3]

> @dcopp7 said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> The question is, can you hit the 1 iron from the 70's as long ?

>

> I don't own a 1-iron. Sorry. My question was simply, if his 1 iron carry was 210ish, figuring 10 yard gaps for each iron thereafter, his numbers would seem really low. Sorry I offended some people by asking....jeez

>

No you did not "offended" anyone here, at least not I.

We know the topic, just the way it comes across was not a fair comparison. With the equipment today to the 70's, which is not an equavilent comparison.

Like comparing today's super car to the 70's muscle car......... who is the better driver ? Plus the iron game is not a long drive contest. No one cares which nunmer on the sole of the iron as long as it'll get the job done. Jack was one of the best long iron players ever ( arguably ). Not only he could get the ball up but with a precision high trajectory to stop on the smallest green surfaces from the 60's and the 70's. Yes, the greens were smaller back then.

I guess the reason why Jack received such recognition for his long iron play was because not only he could hit them, but also with the high trajectory and precision not many would dare to venture into the exploring their own.

It is always an intriguing question to find out who is the best golfer if we could comapring them in their prime on equal terms. All we know is, from the history, they were the best in their time.

 

I'd bet , you would love to play a round of golf with Jack in his prime and comapre your 5 iron to his 1 iron . so do we.

 

[mocokid]

> @teevons said:

> think I 've told this story several times, MY in-law grew up a mile from Titleist plant, he remembers seeing Macgregor balls stamped Nicklaus when touring plant

 

Odd, why then were the Macgregor balls so inferior if made by Titleist?

[smashdn]

JN has hitting a high fade before the high fade was cool.

[NRJyzr]

> @mocokid said:

> > @teevons said:

> > think I 've told this story several times, MY in-law grew up a mile from Titleist plant, he remembers seeing Macgregor balls stamped Nicklaus when touring plant

>

> Odd, why then were the Macgregor balls so inferior if made by Titleist?

 

Couple things come to mind.

 

Balls referenced by teevons may have been "Jack only" balls. The story told to me was of Titleist making golfballs for Jack that were that kind of special.

 

Another aspect is MacGregor engineers were designing balls to their specifications, with Titleist merely handling outsourced manufacturing. Not unlike the "Bridgestone making Nike golf balls" thing. :)

[dalehead]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> There is such a huge difference between today's equipment compared to the equipment of 40-50 years ago. For that matter, 60 years ago. Equipment between the 1950's and 1960's were pretty much comparable. The balls today go much farther. Irons are stronger loft. Shafts are better, now flighted. "Woods" today are made of Titanium/Carbon Fiber/what other high tech widget added and are paired with an ultra high tech and light weight golf shaft. Back in the day the most sought after woods are the MacGregor pro line from the early 1950s. Here is my 1953 MacGregor M09 LFF (White/Red/White insert and from the stance) and my 1950 MacGregor 693. Just for nostalgia's sake. :)

>

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>

>

>

>

>

 

Almost forgot what is was like to look down and see a driver head that was nearly as small as the ball.

 

[RobotDoctor]

AND that driver is a Jumbo head. LOL

[dcopp7]

So, fueling the fire, Cameron Champ just hit a 3/4 swing 7 iron from the rough 214 yds to the green in Detroit...impossible without a massively jacked loft or a juiced ball.

[twidener]

I was with a friend at the 1970 PGA Championship at Southern Hills on Sunday and we followed Nicklaus around. He was too far behind to win but had a good round going. Most of the gallery were following Palmer who was very much in contention so we were able to stand right next to Nicklaus on the tee. At the 13th hole there was back then there was a ravine about 20 yards wide. It was fairway but if your ball was down in the ravine you had a blind shot to the green. The ravine started around 260 off the tee and it was 283 to carry it. The hole played as a par 5 for members but the PGA was playing it as a par 4 for the tournament. Nicklaus comes to the tee and my friend an I are the only people there. His playing partner, can't remember who, lays up short of the ravine but that leaves a long shot to reach the green. Nicklaus takes out his driver and hits his shot so high and carries the ravine. He looks at us standing there and gives us a wink. He went on to shoot either a 65 or 67 that final round. One of the lowest rounds in the tournament. He, like a lot of the good players back then, could hit the ball as far as they needed.

[jeffreyl]

Reminds me of Lee Trevino’s line. “ If you are caught on a golf course during a storm and are afraid of lightning, hold up a 1-iron. Not even God can hit a 1-iron."

 

My Mother bought me my first set of golf clubs “used” black faced MacGregor 1950’s era irons in about 1965. ( Thank goodness no 1 iron). In the 70’s had several sets of PowerBilt Citation irons with 2 - 9 irons.

 

For me Trevino’s comments were correct and I did try to hit one irons. Hitting the sweet spot repeatably with equipment of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s was different than the clubs that came later. ( and if you have never “cut” a balata ball with an iron!)

 

It is very hard to compare the equipment, balls and courses, played then and today, in my opinion.

 

Trevino would do exhibitions and hit various clubs the same distance.

 

Another interesting fact was that there were not “yardage markers”. Trees were often noted as a yardage marker. We measured yardages with “eyes” and feel, not hitting shots based on exact distance.

 

Nicklaus popularized walking off yardages and yardage markers became “normal”!

 

As with life, golf changes and I have been fortunate to see it and play.

 

 

[dlygrisse]

I think most were trying to give you some context. The weather and the equipment playa huge roll. In the 1970’s a stock 7 iron for most pros went 150 to 160. This is not because they weren’t talented , it the ball and the clubs.

The modern pro can hit a driver 40 to 50 yards farther carry just because of equipment.

 

There is a reason courses were shorter then.

> @dcopp7 said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> The question is, can you hit the 1 iron from the 70's as long ?

>

> I don't own a 1-iron. Sorry. My question was simply, if his 1 iron carry was 210ish, figuring 10 yard gaps for each iron thereafter, his numbers would seem really low. Sorry I offended some people by asking....jeez

>

 

 

[dlygrisse]

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/464549/jack-nicklaus-club-yardage

[ChipNRun]

> @mcputter said:

> Balata ball, into the wind (Trevino hit 3-wood), cool temps, yesteryear's 1-iron has loft of today's 2-iron (at least), era of controlled swings with irons, etc. Many factors. In his prime Jack was one of the longest hitters, and a 30 year old Jack Nicklaus in today's game would still be one of the longest.

 

Another famous 1-iron by Nicklaus came in better weather at the 1967 US Open, which he won over Arnold Palmer.

[https://golf.com/video/revisiting-jack-nicklauss-historic-1-iron-baltusrol](https://www.golf.com/video/revisiting-jack-nicklauss-historic-1-iron-baltusrol "https://golf.com/video/revisiting-jack-nicklauss-historic-1-iron-baltusrol")

 

The No. 18 hole at Baltusrol was playing at some 542 yards that day. Off the tee, Nicklaus pushed a safety 1-iron into the rough, chopped out with an 8 iron, and faced a **238 yard shot uphill.** He followed up with a second 1-iron, which he left 22 feet from the cup. He sank the birdie putt to close out Palmer, and set a new US Open scoring record of 5-Under Par. (Hogan had the old record from the 1948 Open).

 

I got to see Nicklaus play first-hand on May 31, 1971 at Old Warson CC in St. Louis. Nicklaus and English star Tony Jacklin had me as a forecaddie in an exhibition match on National Golf Day. LPGA stars Donna Caponi and Shirley Eckelhorn also played. I don't recall any momentous 1 iron shots, but Nicklaus did hit a towering 6 iron shot out of the fairway bunker on No. 11 to within 6 feet of the pin. Nicklaus birdied while Jacklin bogied, to tie the stroke-play match. Nicklaus went on to win.

 

(The exhibition previewed the Ryder Cup, which Old Warson would host that fall. The US won, 18½ - 13½. Unfortunately, I had to return to college in late August so I missed the tournament.)

 

 

[JAMH03]

> @twidener said:

> I was with a friend at the 1970 PGA Championship at Southern Hills on Sunday and we followed Nicklaus around. He was too far behind to win but had a good round going. Most of the gallery were following Palmer who was very much in contention so we were able to stand right next to Nicklaus on the tee. At the 13th hole there was back then there was a ravine about 20 yards wide. It was fairway but if your ball was down in the ravine you had a blind shot to the green. The ravine started around 260 off the tee and it was 283 to carry it. The hole played as a par 5 for members but the PGA was playing it as a par 4 for the tournament. Nicklaus comes to the tee and my friend an I are the only people there. His playing partner, can't remember who, lays up short of the ravine but that leaves a long shot to reach the green. Nicklaus takes out his driver and hits his shot so high and carries the ravine. He looks at us standing there and gives us a wink. He went on to shoot either a 65 or 67 that final round. One of the lowest rounds in the tournament. He, like a lot of the good players back then, could hit the ball as far as they needed.

 

@LICC ^ ^