How to add Width and be on Plane

[97speedster]

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[jc4birdie]

> @97speedster said:

> The downswing DOES start from the ground up, but it actually starts before the backswing is even completed. It is VERY different than pushing off with the right foot which leads to early extension. On the downswing my weight shifts towards the target while my shoulders stay closed which shallows the club and gets you in the slot and gives you the leverage you need for speed. Weight shift and keeping the right shoulder closed flattens the shaft and creates lag, by the time my left arm gets into the 9 o’clock position on the downswing my arms and hands have been very passive. You want to keep the right shoulder as far away from the ball as you can and for as long as possible on the downswing. This is where power comes from; pushing of the right foot is a weak move that causes many problems with plane and sequence.

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Thanks,& congrats on the gains. Tough at your skill level. One point of confusion though...& I don’t say this argumentatively; I’m genuinely confused on your very important point of emphasis. HOW exactly do you start the shift of weight target-ward from the top of the backswing without the initiator being a push off from the set of the right leg/foot? I’d KILL for 25 yds w/ driver & commensurate gains w/ my irons, like you’ve gotten. I just cannot comprehend the mechanics of the uncoiling from ground-up without the move from the right foot/leg. Can you help me out here, brother? As always, I appreciate your input.

 

[wmblake2000]

> @97speedster said:

> On the downswing my weight shifts towards the target while my shoulders stay closed which shallows the club and gets you in the slot and gives you the leverage you need for speed. Weight shift and keeping the right shoulder closed flattens the shaft and creates lag, by the time my left arm gets into the 9 o’clock position on the downswing my arms and hands have been very passive. You want to keep the right shoulder as far away from the ball as you can and for as long as possible on the downswing. This is where power comes from; pushing of the right foot is a weak move that causes many problems with and sequence.

 

This was precisely what I was tinkering around with this afternoon... except I was thinking of left shoulder closed instead of r shoulder away from target. I think of the tailbone almost ‘contradicting’ the shoulder turn, working in an opposing fashion (toward target) as I get left arm parallel going back. The only feel I am seeing different from your description is my triangle of l & r arms actively (not passively) move down together (with a lot of attention by me that r elbow doesn’t separate, which is my historical move) - I want the arms to move faster than the shoulders and catch up so there is still some shoulder motion left to leverage near impact.

 

[wmblake2000]

> @parmark said:

> Every time I try to get proper width I find myself coming up and out of swing. So I find myself reverting back to narrow folded arm, amongst other faults as noted herein. Any suggestions most welcome.

 

 

My body had to take some time to get used to the kinds of pressure and stretch this move put on it. It requires much more l tilt and some shoulder blade extension/retraction and getting used to a whole new set of sensations. This took a while and it also took me really believing in this being a good direction, worth commitment to doing...

[97speedster]

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[97speedster]

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[blehnhard]

DJ, would you agree that pushing with the right foot can also cause too much secondary axis tilt? Would you agree that even though you keep shoulders closed, you want to get left shoulder stacked over the left hip before it moves back and up just before impact?

[jbw749]

I've spent years trying to keep right arm straight on bs and add width. I always revert back to right arm folding earlier because it results in better golf scores. But I have to admit a 52 year old making a dramatic swing change and lowering his handicap better than scratch is intriguing to me as a guy who's ben stuck in 3 handicap range for 6 years.

[97speedster]

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[97speedster]

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[Nard_S]

> @97speedster said:

 

> Yes, and when you get too much secondary axis tilt that early in the downswing it’s going to be impossible to recover from, you’re going to be underneath the plane and hanging back through impact with sloppy leg action.

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> I want my entire upper body supported by lower body on the downswing and if I have the proper leg action and keep my knees the same distance apart then the rest will take care of itself and I’ll get the secondary axis tilt right before impact versus in transition.

 

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Spot on. This is where it can go wrong for me too so, a sense that there's a separation of quads in transition, so the "drop the basket" routine is helpful there. Also spot on, the idea of pushing off back foot is not so great, instead an elevating of pressure from inside back to inside front is a better way to think about it.

 

Personally, the trickiest aspect to pull off a better right arm is tamping down the role of hands & arms till P6 and elevating shoulders and core muscles during that same sequence, quelling one trigger and adapting to a new one, assigning something to muscles that are not used to that elevated role takes reps to catch up with already well developed arm speed.

 

[MK7Golf21]

> @jbw749 said:

> I've spent years trying to keep right arm straight on bs and add width. I always revert back to right arm folding earlier because it results in better golf scores. But I have to admit a 52 year old making a dramatic swing change and lowering his handicap better than scratch is intriguing to me as a guy who's ben stuck in 3 handicap range for 6 years.

 

well some great players do have some early folding/softness of right arm, nothing wrong with that. The main thing is top of swing having width. Louis Oosthazien (not even going to look up how to spell it) works on the right arm softly folding in takeaway and backswing for example,

[97speedster]

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[blehnhard]

I also think that the issue with those who choose to have a softer right arm that folds sooner is what do they do in transition. If they keep the hands close, they could be in trouble. Look at baseball hitters, many have their hands close to the right shoulder but as soon as the stride begins, they move the hands away from the right shoulder and begin straightening the right arm. Other hitters start with their hands away and do not have to make that move. Another pitfall of bending the right arm early is that in can cause the 2nd half of the backswing to be just a lifting of the arms and not much coil of the body.

[97speedster]

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[wagolfer7]

@97speedster - Thanks for this post. It's very informative and very well worded in my opinion, describing some of the most difficult things in the swing to explain. For any golfer that is looking to improve, read this thread thoroughly. A lot of gems @97speedster is sharing. Very nice of him to try to help some shortcut this information for us, with what I imagine took a lot of work to figure out.

 

I've personally never thought about the right arm. But this makes a lot of sense and looks like it would put many amateurs in a much better position. Getting rid of the dreaded inside to over the top move with one thought.

 

Also nice looking swing and well earned 97speedster!

[Jim Waldron]

Knees should actually get further apart than even at Setup in the sitdown or squat move. Right glue fires in Transition which will stabilize the right leg, knee and foot. Left knee "bumps" away from stable right knee for real separation move. Tailbone/pelvic girdle shifts laterally for an inch to 3 inches and then hip rotation blends in with the lateral shift, right knee continues to hold and then starts to flex inwards toward center of stance as you get closer to impact. Right heel leads the toe (eversion) as inside of thighs squeeze inwards aka the "Scissors action".

 

I agree - pushing off right foot in Transition is actually a flaw (one of Hogan's big "secrets" was the stable right foot and knee)

[wmblake2000]

@97speedster That swing and body look 30, not 50...awesome.

[97speedster]

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[DonRSD]

> @97speedster said:

> You want to keep the right arm straight for as long as you can in the backswing. If you bend it too early you will get narrow, the left arm will move too much across the chest and your club will be behind your hands at waist high in the backswing, just like mine was a few months ago before I fixed it.

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> The less your right arm bends on the backswing, the more your shoulders will turn. This is why Tour players, especially the power hitters, have their right shoulder behind their heads at the top of the backswing.

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> You create lag through weight shift, not with wrist c0ck. You release lag by keeping your shoulders as closed as possible on the downswing as your weight shifts to the target. There is a big difference between shifting towards the target and pushing off the right side at the top of the backswing. Pushing off the right foot at the top of the backswing, as I said before, leads to early extension. Before my club even gets to the top of the backswing my weight has already begun to shift to the target. This is a powerful move that also begins the narrowing of the downswing and creates lag/leverage.

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If I my touch on what you said about the weight shift......

 

How do you do it? Falling forward, pressing your left into the ground, etc?

 

I also find if I push off the right foot that I get horrible ball striking. Also if I shift/pressure the left foot down that my left shoulder also does towards the ground.

 

 

[97speedster]

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[97speedster]

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[Jim Waldron]

> @97speedster said:

> > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > Knees should actually get further apart than even at Setup in the sitdown or squat move. Right glue fires in Transition which will stabilize the right leg, knee and foot. Left knee "bumps" away from stable right knee for real separation move. Tailbone/pelvic girdle shifts laterally for an inch to 3 inches and then hip rotation blends in with the lateral shift, right knee continues to hold and then starts to flex inwards toward center of stance as you get closer to impact. Right heel leads the toe (eversion) as inside of thighs squeeze inwards aka the "Scissors action".

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> > I agree - pushing off right foot in Transition is actually a flaw (one of Hogan's big "secrets" was the stable right foot and knee)

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> I’ve worked with a beach ball between my knees and then dropping it in transition, but I never had much success with it, but I do like the look of it in Sam Sneed.

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> Have you ever tried practicing with one of the between the knees? I personally feel like it’s good with an impact bag, it feels a little too awkward after impact.

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> http://www.perfectconnextiontrainer.com/

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> It sounds to me you might like it more for the backswing, but on the downswing you might want to feel like it drops out?

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Yes I have used the beach ball for learning the sitdown. It can get in the way a bit after you drop it so you don't need to hit balls learning the sitdown move with the ball.

 

Have not used the "connection" aid you linked to - but think it is really designed more for Triangle sideways pressure in the arms.

[mikpga]

Keep your trail arm straighter longer...

I believe DC has mentioned that a few times here...

[jbw749]

> @mikpga said:

> Keep your trail arm straighter longer...

> I believe DC has mentioned that a few times here...

 

The OP's epiphany reminds me of hstead's after working with DC. It does seem like the OP found something that will stick though. There's got to be 20 threads on this subject. I worked on this for 2 years including 6 months of slow mo mirror work. I can't feel the throw on the downswing unless my right arm is a little soft on the backswing. It doesn't mean I won't explore it again though.

 

[cardoustie]

Right side width + blueprints + arm swing illusion = lowest cap in 25 years for me at 1.4

My secret is out it seems

[cardoustie]

Ps great topic OP

[wmblake2000]

> @jbw749 said:

> > @mikpga said:

> > Keep your trail arm straighter longer...

> > I believe DC has mentioned that a few times here...

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> The OP's epiphany reminds me of hstead's after working with DC. It does seem like the OP found something that will stick though. There's got to be 20 threads on this subject. I worked on this for 2 years including 6 months of slow mo mirror work. I can't feel the throw on the downswing unless my right arm is a little soft on the backswing. It doesn't mean I won't explore it again though.

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I’ve been spending some time looking into athletic motion golf’s content (inexpensive membership). They have a slightly different emphasis - more on pushing arms away from torso at top than trail arm straight going back, and then almost exactly the same idea as 97speedster in how shoulder/arm relate and how pressure shift happens. Their way of framing backswing is lead arm angle with chest (roughly 90* at address) doesn’t shrink (aka do not swing sideways, pinning against shoulders) until maybe a little at the top. Meanwhile a lot of focus on shoulder/scapula turn/retraction especially r shoulder creating the depth of the hands/head (and not r arm collapse). One of their key points is from the top there just isn’t a lot of time to do much. All of this 97 says more clearly than I am.

 

 

[DonRSD]

As for width.....

 

Should the right arm be straight at impact?

[97speedster]

@TIM929 It's tough to play good golf thinking about your swing OR your score. I stopped thinking about my swing while on the golf course back in 1997 when I was a pro. I was playing some of the best golf of my life, but wasn't shooting the scores I felt like I should be based on how good I was hitting it and then I read a book called "Be the Target" by Byron Huff.

 

Literally the week that I got done with the book I shot 60 (Par 72) on my home course in a big money game ($500 which was a lot for me as a mini tour player at the time) and I beat Paul Azinger's course record by 3 shots, it still stands today 22 years later. I teed off on the back 9 and in the middle of the round I had 9 birdies in a row and had no idea how I stood because all my mind was focused on that day was the target, not the outcome. I kept those thoughts going and then won by 5 shots on the Golden Bear Tour in my next tournament by shooting 69-66-67 (14 under) at the The Loxahatchee Club in Jupiter, Florida which is a very good Jack Nicklaus signature design. The only difference in my game was my focus on the target, not my golf swing or my score!