Double Hit Rules Question - Chipping

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Vindog said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. **If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground**, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway).

> > >

> > > I wonder what you mean by that...

> > >

> > > A ball on a tee is not in play until you make a stroke at it. If you dribble a ball of the tee before it is in play it does not matter where the ball ends up, it must be re-teed without penalty (or you may decide not to tee it but you are not allowed to play that ball if it is not in the teeing area). If you dribble a ball off the tee that is in play you get one stroke penalty and may replace the ball or play as it lies if it is still in the teeing area. If not you must place the ball somewhere within the teeing area.

> > >

> > > Teeing area does have some very special Rules.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Here in the US, to 'dribble the ball off the tee' means to top it severely such that the ball bounces a very short distance and stops (displaying the kind of movement that a basketball would display when being dribbled while the player is moving). Kind of US thing, I guess.

> >

> > dave

>

> Even I, in the US, missed on what you were trying to say. In your case the player has made a stroke at the ball, the stroke counts, but the player has a few more options than if he were in the general area.

 

Very interesting. That is a really common term in my experience (which is mostly midwest and/or southeast US golf).

 

dave

[2bGood]

> @antip said:

> > @2bGood said:

> >

> >

> >

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > >

> > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> >

> > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

>

> > @2bGood said:

> >

> >

> >

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > >

> > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> >

> > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

>

> There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

 

The rational giving by the rules official was that once you have a ball in play on a hole, you can no longer accidentally move the ball. The other example he gave is a very poor golfer tries to hit the ball and misses completely - the ball on the tee is now in play and must be treated as such.

 

It makes sense to me that the second example holds up. Can you send me a link to the ruling? I have been curious about this ever since that rules seminar.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @2bGood said:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > >

> > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> >

> > > @2bGood said:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > >

> > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> >

> > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

>

> Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

>

> I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

 

62b(6) says that a player may lift or move a ball in play in the teeing area without penalty. "Movement" is not restricted to deliberate movement in that statement, so accidental movement is also penalty-free. 9.4b as a whole only applies to deliberate movement, and shouldn't be applied to accidental movement.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @2bGood said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > >

> > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > >

> > > > @2bGood said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > >

> > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > >

> > > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

> >

> > Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

> >

> > I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

>

> 62b(6) says that a player may lift or move a ball in play in the teeing area without penalty. "Movement" is not restricted to deliberate movement in that statement, so accidental movement is also penalty-free. 9.4b as a whole only applies to deliberate movement, and shouldn't be applied to accidental movement.

 

If it was so simple I doubt antip would have written 'This is not clear in the rules'.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > > >

> > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > > >

> > > > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

> > >

> > > Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

> > >

> > > I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

> >

> > 62b(6) says that a player may lift or move a ball in play in the teeing area without penalty. "Movement" is not restricted to deliberate movement in that statement, so accidental movement is also penalty-free. 9.4b as a whole only applies to deliberate movement, and shouldn't be applied to accidental movement.

>

> If it was so simple I doubt antip would have written 'This is not clear in the rules'.

 

I did not rate how "simple" it was, I just tried to address and help you with what you said was the challenging part. My work is done.

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @2bGood said:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > >

> > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> >

> > > @2bGood said:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > >

> > > > > dave

> > > >

> > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > >

> > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> >

> > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

>

> Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

>

> I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

 

I understand what you are saying - that the published words in Rule 6 and Rule 9 are such that it is difficult to conclude from those words that ANY accidental movement of a ball at rest and in play in the Teeing Area will not attract a penalty. And I entirely shared that view. I also note that this question was getting a fair bit of discussion in a number of places earlier in the year. But I can confirm - as it was a process that I was party to - that the USGA has ruled that accidental movement of a ball in play in the Teeing Area does not attract a penalty. The questions asked, and the paraphrased responses, are available here:

http://lindamillergolf.blogspot.com/2019/02/ask-linda-1859-accidentally-move-ball.html

[antip]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

 

> What is the rationale for allowing a ball change for a ball in play that ends in a teeing area? I don't see the need for that, but I am sure that I am missing something.

>

> dave

 

Dave, the only thing you are missing is realisation of the significant extent to which Ruling Bodies saw fit to make the Teeing Area a very liberal place in the 2019 Rules. In the words of my Workshop presenter "Golf is a hard game, we just want to get you started".

[DaveLeeNC]

> @antip said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

>

> > What is the rationale for allowing a ball change for a ball in play that ends in a teeing area? I don't see the need for that, but I am sure that I am missing something.

> >

> > dave

>

> Dave, the only thing you are missing is realisation of the significant extent to which Ruling Bodies saw fit to make the Teeing Area a very liberal place in the 2019 Rules. In the words of my Workshop presenter "Golf is a hard game, we just want to get you started".

 

That is true and if you read that section carefully it does become clear.

 

I know that if I EVER have a ball that ends up in a teeing area (this is going to be really rare) I am GOING TO HIT THE NEXT SHOT OFF A TEE!

 

dave

 

ps. And I might go to the infamous divots thread and point out that, in this case, not only do you get relief from a divot, but you can also use a tee.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @2bGood said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > >

> > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > >

> > > > @2bGood said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dave

> > > > >

> > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > >

> > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > >

> > > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

> >

> > Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

> >

> > I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

>

> I understand what you are saying - that the published words in Rule 6 and Rule 9 are such that it is difficult to conclude from those words that ANY accidental movement of a ball at rest and in play in the Teeing Area will not attract a penalty. And I entirely shared that view. I also note that this question was getting a fair bit of discussion in a number of places earlier in the year. But I can confirm - as it was a process that I was party to - that the USGA has ruled that accidental movement of a ball in play in the Teeing Area does not attract a penalty. The questions asked, and the paraphrased responses, are available here:

> http://lindamillergolf.blogspot.com/2019/02/ask-linda-1859-accidentally-move-ball.html

 

Surely you are not saying that Linda equals USGA???

[sui generis]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @antip said:

> > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > > >

> > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dave

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > > >

> > > > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

> > >

> > > Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

> > >

> > > I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

> >

> > I understand what you are saying - that the published words in Rule 6 and Rule 9 are such that it is difficult to conclude from those words that ANY accidental movement of a ball at rest and in play in the Teeing Area will not attract a penalty. And I entirely shared that view. I also note that this question was getting a fair bit of discussion in a number of places earlier in the year. But I can confirm - as it was a process that I was party to - that the USGA has ruled that accidental movement of a ball in play in the Teeing Area does not attract a penalty. The questions asked, and the paraphrased responses, are available here:

> > http://lindamillergolf.blogspot.com/2019/02/ask-linda-1859-accidentally-move-ball.html

>

> Surely you are not saying that Linda equals USGA???

 

I don't believe he's said that. However, Linda's as good as anyone here. She makes the odd mistake, but then don't we all? To her credit, she will publish a correction asap.

[Mr. Bean]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @antip said:

> > > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > > @antip said:

> > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @2bGood said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > > > > > > FWIW, I don't think that it is correct/proper to think of the teeing ground as having special rules. If you dribble your ball off the tee, but not off the teeing ground, the ball is in play (just like it being in the fairway). The real issue is "did this happen when the ball was in play".

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > On the putting green - it is different there.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Just nit picking a bit, Dave. There is no "teeing ground" any more. There is a "teeing area" and a ball there has more options in 2019. R6.1 & 6.2 tell the tale.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You are correct and I was pretty careless. There is no more teeing ground and I should have made clear that my comments only addressed the issue of unintentionally moving the ball. And actually since you can now move the ball from the teeing area (once it is in play), I guess I am not at all sure how that would work. Maybe accidently moving the ball in the teeing area (ball in play) is OK. I guess I really don't know what the rules are in the teeing area. Can I change balls in the middle of the hole??

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If your ball in play is back in the Teeing Area you can "play that ball **or another ball** from anywhere in the teeing area....." R6.2b(6) second bullet point.

> > > > > > Not to muddy the waters... under the old rules, I thought that once you had hit your first ball in the teeing ground - if you accidentally knocked your ball off the tee on a secondary ball (ie provisional) you then faced penalty for moving get ball. This came up in a rules seminar I was in. As it was super obscure I never looking into it, and just made sure to tee up my provisionals in a steady way.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not sure if this is correct in the old rules or applies to the new rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > There are a few issues with this post. First, accidentally nudging your (correctly called) provisional ball off the tee before it is played was not a penalty in 2018 nor is it a penalty in 2019. In 2019, **any** accidental movement of a ball in the Teeing Area does not get a penalty, regardless of whether the ball is in play or not. This is not clear in the rules but has been the subject of a USGA ruling.

> > > >

> > > > Having read Rules 6.2 and 9.4b Exc 1 I find that slightly problematic. The Exception 1 says there is no penalty if a player causes his ball in play to move if a Rule allows or requires the player to lift and place/replace the ball having moved. Somehow I get the impression that the player actually MUST do something to that ball he has moved or caused it to have moved. Now, the challenging part here is that on the teeing area a player is allowed to move his ball around with no penalty but IMO that moving needs to be done with intent. A ball moved accidentally has not been moved with intent unless the player having done that then declares that 'this is the spot I want to play my ball'.

> > > >

> > > > I hope I was able to elaborate my thought sufficiently to make them understandable.

> > >

> > > I understand what you are saying - that the published words in Rule 6 and Rule 9 are such that it is difficult to conclude from those words that ANY accidental movement of a ball at rest and in play in the Teeing Area will not attract a penalty. And I entirely shared that view. I also note that this question was getting a fair bit of discussion in a number of places earlier in the year. But I can confirm - as it was a process that I was party to - that the USGA has ruled that accidental movement of a ball in play in the Teeing Area does not attract a penalty. The questions asked, and the paraphrased responses, are available here:

> > > http://lindamillergolf.blogspot.com/2019/02/ask-linda-1859-accidentally-move-ball.html

> >

> > Surely you are not saying that Linda equals USGA???

>

> I don't believe he's said that. However, Linda's as good as anyone here. She makes the odd mistake, but then don't we all? To her credit, she will publish a correction asap.

 

During past years I trusted much more to the late Barry Rhodes than Linda Miller whose mistakes I have witnessed too often. The difference between a blogist such as Linda and us here on a forum is that people take Linda's words as those of a god while we are here just discussing and trying to find the answer in the written texts.

 

But I am still puzzled with the words of antip as he clearly referred to USGA and Linda is not USGA nor R&A or any official party, not even close. I guess he will comment that as soon as he wakes up (it is quite late now in Down Under).

[Newby]

Although Linda does a make few mistakes, as sui says, she corrects them quickly. If a correction has not been made the within a day, one can take it as correct.

She also has good contacts in the USGA and other competent sources around the world she checks with before posting if she is unsure.

I would guess she was advised on this particular answer.

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> Although Linda does a make few mistakes, as sui says, she corrects them quickly. If a correction has not been made the within a day, one can take it as correct.

> She also has good contacts in the USGA and other competent sources around the world she checks with before posting if she is unsure.

> **I would guess** she was advised on this particular answer.

>

 

If all of that is true I am glad. It was quite a few years back when we dealt with one of Linda's answers on a different rules forum and that answer was definitively incorrect. I cannot remember how long it took before she corrected it but it was more like two weeks than a couple of days.

 

All in all, any interpretation in the Rules given by anybody else than an authorized member of the Ruling Bodies should be dealt with prudence unless it is a clear cut case found from the Rules.

 

P.S. Guessing is not good enough for me...

[Colin L]

Mr Bean, you seem to have it in for Linda for some reason! In the current matter, it seems as if she was simply relating the questions put to the USGA and the answers given. If that were the case, the answers come from the USGA not herself. Antip will no doubt clarify.

 

Yes, she has made mistakes as we all do but, as said, is always open to helpful corrections. I have been in each of these situations:

Corrected a mistake she had made.

Been consulted on a matter before she answered a question.

Corrected a mistake I thought she had made, only to realise moments after sending her an email that it was I who was making a mistake and so had to correct my correction.

 

No prizes for guessing which was the embarrassing one!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

Surely it depends on what is being guessed at. In this case my guess is simply an opinion based on my knowledge. The value you place on it it entirely up to you.

I would estimate that by far the majority of her responses are straightforward explanations of the relevant rule or rules.

[Mr. Bean]

All I am saying is that the only answers one can truly trust in come from the Ruling Bodies.

 

' In the current matter, it seems as if she was simply relating the questions put to the USGA and the answers given. If that were the case, the answers come from the USGA not herself.'

 

This part I do not understand, too fancy language for me. From my part this started from antip's post where he said he has got the answer from USGA and then he referenced the questions and answers in Linda's blog.

 

EDIT: Having read your words (which I quoted in this post) a dozen times and the referenced part of Linda's blog I find no reference to USGA anywhere but in antip's post.

[Colin L]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> All I am saying is that the only answers one can truly trust in come from the Ruling Bodies.

>

> ' In the current matter, it seems as if she was simply relating the questions put to the USGA and the answers given. If that were the case, the answers come from the USGA not herself.'

>

> This part I do not understand, too fancy language for me. From my part this started from antip's post where he said he has got the answer from USGA and then he referenced the questions and answers in Linda's blog.

 

Sorry about that. The typo didn't help one bit. "Relating" should have been "relaying" ('y' and 't' being next to each other on a British English keyboard). I meant to say that I thought she was simply passing on the questions put to the USGA and the answers given.

 

Wakey, wake, Antip. We have need of your clarification.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > All I am saying is that the only answers one can truly trust in come from the Ruling Bodies.

> >

> > ' In the current matter, it seems as if she was simply relating the questions put to the USGA and the answers given. If that were the case, the answers come from the USGA not herself.'

> >

> > This part I do not understand, too fancy language for me. From my part this started from antip's post where he said he has got the answer from USGA and then he referenced the questions and answers in Linda's blog.

>

> "Relating" should have been "relaying" ('y' and 't' being next to each other on a British English

>

 

The USGA and R&A must have collaborated on keyboard design, because my "y" and "t" are neighbors as well.

[rogolf]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> All I am saying is that the only answers one can truly trust in come from the Ruling Bodies.

>

> ' In the current matter, it seems as if she was simply relating the questions put to the USGA and the answers given. If that were the case, the answers come from the USGA not herself.'

>

> This part I do not understand, too fancy language for me. From my part this started from antip's post where he said he has got the answer from USGA and then he referenced the questions and answers in Linda's blog.

>

> EDIT: Having read your words (which I quoted in this post) a dozen times and the referenced part of Linda's blog I find no reference to USGA anywhere but in antip's post.

 

Linda submitted the question about accidentally moving a ball in play in the teeing area to the USGA and received the answer that antip has provided.

If you don't like/believe the answer, you can also ask your respective ruling body for your own clarification (and then advise us whether your doubts were valid or not).

[antip]

**Summary**: the Linda blog article I cited in #36 presents the 2 questions (I'll discuss why 2 below) that were sent to the USGA. Linda's article then presented a paraphrasing of the USGA response because the response concluded with the (previously common, but not so much in 2019) disclaimer "this response is for your personal information .....". To be clear, the response is official confirmation that there is no penalty for accidental movement of a ball at rest and in play in the Teeing Area.

 

**The back story:** 2019's Rule 6.2b revolution surprised us all, but the extent of RBs changes in relation to 'any accidental movement' was not evident for many of us in the published words of 6.2b and 9.4b. This issue lit up for me when I was having my regular enjoyable play on the Oregon Golf Association's monthly quiz (Pete Scholz and Terry McEvilly do a nice job there). Their November 2018 T/F quiz on the new rules contains the following:

_4. When a ball is in play after a stroke and remains in the teeing area, such as when the ball is missed or just knocked off the tee by the stroke, it may be played as it lies or re-teed anywhere within the teeing area without penalty.

Answer - True. Rule 6.2b(6). New in 2019 is the introduction of this liberty when the ball lies within the teeing area. **Since the ball must still be played from within the teeing area, there is no penalty for accidentally causing your ball to move** or purposely causing it to move by repositioning it within the teeing area. All of the teeing area liberties and restrictions still apply since the ball is still in the teeing area._

 

I had seen no hint of this bolded wording anywhere else but I understand one or both of these guys had been to an early 2019 Rules Workshop and that was a point made in presentations. So it went on my list for further exploration because I could not see that justified by the published words. As Saw noted above, 6.2b(6) says "player may: lift or move the ball without penalty" but we are then sent to 9.4b, Exception 1. And that Exception all sits under a qualification of no penalty if the player causes it to move **under a Rule**..... but carelessly/accidentally moving your ball in play, IMO, could never be interpreted as proceeding under a Rule. And I don't think that is just a case of old wiring biting hard. One respected discussant I chewed this over with (who had also been to an early Workshop) suggested the no penalty for accidental movement on the Teeing Area is because of the last bullet point in Exception 1. My response: if that is true, then precisely the same no penalty argument would apply if you carelessly/accidentally move your ball in play in any free relief area, such as GUR. And that is why I drafted the 2 separate questions the way I did and why I believed very strongly they needed to go up together to eliminate any confusion about how RBs wanted these situations treated.

 

This accidental movement case also got a lot of coverage in other places and I am confident in saying that I was not alone in believing the published words do not achieve the intent that RBs have. So I was pleased to be able to assist in a process that was able to remove any doubt about what RBs want. And, hopefully, RBs will see fit next time to do a little redrafting in the otherwise excellent material in Rule 9.4b.

 

I also want to say I have great respect for the role that Linda plays in bringing improved awareness of the golf rules to an extremely diverse audience of golfers world-wide. She publishes almost exclusively unedited, which brings occasional risks of getting something wrong, but there are a number of us here that are happy to help if that occurs.

[Sawgrass]

Notwithstanding all that, IMO it would be a much odder construct if we allowed purposefully moving your ball in play in the teeing area at your whim, but penalized accidental movement. I don’t see it as essential to address this in 9.4, but no doubt it would make some people more comfortable.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Notwithstanding all that, IMO it would be a much odder construct if we allowed purposefully moving your ball in play in the teeing area at your whim, but penalized accidental movement. I don’t see it as essential to address this in 9.4, but no doubt it would make some people more comfortable.

 

On your first sentence, that is what we do anywhere else on the course (except putting green) unless you are proceeding under a rule.

 

On your second sentence, my view differs because 9.4b purports to tell us when there is no penalty for moving a ball at rest. Currently, this 6.2b(6) circumstance is not included with any words that can only apply to accidental movement under 6.2b(6), so IMO this is not about what makes some people more comfortable, it is about clarity in the Exceptions that the Rules allow. And reference is made to accidental movement 'no penalty' situations enabled through 7.4, 13.1d, 14.1, 14.2, 15.2, 8.1d, and 6.4, but not 6.2b, despite the fact that 6.2b represents some of the most radical rule changes that came in effect this year.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @antip said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > Notwithstanding all that, IMO it would be a much odder construct if we allowed purposefully moving your ball in play in the teeing area at your whim, but penalized accidental movement. I don’t see it as essential to address this in 9.4, but no doubt it would make some people more comfortable.

>

> On your first sentence, that is what we do anywhere else on the course (except putting green) unless you are proceeding under a rule.

>

> On your second sentence, my view differs because 9.4b purports to tell us when there is no penalty for moving a ball at rest. Currently, this 6.2b(6) circumstance is not included with any words that can only apply to accidental movement under 6.2b(6), so IMO this is not about what makes some people more comfortable, it is about clarity in the Exceptions that the Rules allow. And reference is made to accidental movement 'no penalty' situations enabled through 7.4, 13.1d, 14.1, 14.2, 15.2, 8.1d, and 6.4, but not 6.2b, despite the fact that 6.2b represents some of the most radical rule changes that came in effect this year.

>

>

9.4b exception 1 says in part there’s no penalty for causing a ball to move when a rule:

• Requires or allows the player to drop or place a ball again or to play a ball from a different place.

 

And 6.2b(6) says you may move the ball without penalty and even drives you back to 9.4b X 1:

 

• Lift or move the ball without penalty (see Rule 9.4b, Exception 1)

 

So it’s all there, just not obvious.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @rogolf said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > All I am saying is that the only answers one can truly trust in come from the Ruling Bodies.

> >

> > ' In the current matter, it seems as if she was simply relating the questions put to the USGA and the answers given. If that were the case, the answers come from the USGA not herself.'

> >

> > This part I do not understand, too fancy language for me. From my part this started from antip's post where he said he has got the answer from USGA and then he referenced the questions and answers in Linda's blog.

> >

> > EDIT: Having read your words (which I quoted in this post) a dozen times and the referenced part of Linda's blog I find no reference to USGA anywhere but in antip's post.

>

> Linda submitted the question about accidentally moving a ball in play in the teeing area to the USGA and received the answer that antip has provided.

 

Maybe so but that was nowhere to be seen in the post of Linda's blog. Or do you think I would have challenged Linda's answer had she wrote the answer was given by USGA? C'mon, rogolf!

 

 

[Newby]

Linda verifies many of her blogs with the USGA but doesn't always mention it. If you are not happy with an answer where she hasn't mentioned a reference to the USGA, then ask her.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> Linda verifies many of her blogs with the USGA but doesn't always mention it.

 

So... we always have to guess if she has verified the answer with the USGA... or....we need to ask her.

 

If I wrote a blog such as Linda's I would ALWAYS tell if the answer I give has been verified by an authorized party, unless the answer is directly found from the Rules.

 

Am I really the only one who thinks this way..???

 

 

[Colin L]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Linda verifies many of her blogs with the USGA but doesn't always mention it.

>

> So... we always have to guess if she has verified the answer with the USGA... or....we need to ask her.

>

> If I wrote a blog such as Linda's I would ALWAYS tell if the answer I give has been verified by an authorized party, unless the answer is directly found from the Rules.

>

> Am I really the only one who thinks this way..???

>

>

Quite possibly. :smiley:

 

Edit: Just to indicate this was meant humourously, I put in a smiley. It is tiny and located in a space somewhere east of the text it relates to.

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Linda verifies many of her blogs with the USGA but doesn't always mention it.

>

> So... we always have to guess if she has verified the answer with the USGA... or....we need to ask her.

>

> If I wrote a blog such as Linda's I would ALWAYS tell if the answer I give has been verified by an authorized party, unless the answer is directly found from the Rules.

>

> Am I really the only one who thinks this way..???

>

>

If she never said one way other if a post was verified by the USGA what would you do?

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > Linda verifies many of her blogs with the USGA but doesn't always mention it.

> >

> > So... we always have to guess if she has verified the answer with the USGA... or....we need to ask her.

> >

> > If I wrote a blog such as Linda's I would ALWAYS tell if the answer I give has been verified by an authorized party, unless the answer is directly found from the Rules.

> >

> > Am I really the only one who thinks this way..???

> >

> >

> If she never said one way other if a post was verified by the USGA what would you do?

 

Apparently my way of thinking that a person needs to show the credentials instead of others to guess whether there are any is a foreign type of thinking to the readers of this thread. No way around that.

 

P.S. I did not understand the 'one way other if a post' thing. Sorry, I am not a native speaker, you need to use simple language.

[Mr. Bean]

If I have got this right all of you believe that everything Linda writes in her blog comes directly from USGA, is that it?

 

Here's the blog: http://lindamillergolf.blogspot.com/2019/02/ask-linda-1859-accidentally-move-ball.html

 

Where exactly in that part of the blog is it said that Linda's answers have been verified by USGA? That is all I want to know.