Manual de la Torre Method

[NoTalentLefty]

> @juststeve said:

> > @NoTalentLefty said:

> > How quickly did Manuel club move inside the path on the backswing? On a video I saw it seemed not immediately but fairly quick. Or I'm I not getting his swing?

>

> Think of the swing as a motion of the club, on a tilted circle, away from and then toward the target. In the back swing the club moves back,up and in until its over the left shoulder. Manny would remind you that there are no straight lines in the tilted circle.

>

> Steve

 

Thank you for responding and as well as being so quick.

[juststeve]

> @Cg1013 said:

> @juststeve Not sure if you saw my post from earlier, but do you know anyone in the dfw that teaches this method?

 

Sorry, I missed your post. No, I don't know anyone in DFW currently that teaches Manny's method. There was such a guy called Gary Pickle who was in Euless but I believe he is now in Arkansas.

 

Steve

 

[Cg1013]

no worries and thanks for responding. That's a shame though that there isn't anyone local.

[NoTalentLefty]

For over two months been watching and reading anything from Manuel, I've got to believe for most golfers who don't play everyday, it is the best way to view the swing. Never taken a lesson from him but simply is better. My own game was improved by getting alignment to the target corrected which was inhibiting myself from swing at the target. Nothing was taught about the swing itself other than an image of hitting the ball from the inside quad of the golf ball. It was a game changer for me that took me into the 70s in less than a year. It also got me swinging down the line of the target. Not exactly like Manuel's teaching but produced the same benefits. Seeking to gain distance I started delving into a more body focused instruction. It destroyed my game because I couldn't keep up the practice necessary after becoming a husband and a father.

If you are in the same position with a career added, (retired here) you would do well to study and follow this man's work. It has been nothing but amazing how he communicates better than any other teach of the game with conviction and backs it up with visible knowledge of the swing.

That's all I got to say about that.

[skajaquada77]

I took a lesson a few days ago, short game chipping, pitching and bunker shots. I was already familiar with the mechanics and the concepts, but it has helped me tremendously with my full swing. I undertstand better now how lag is created, how swinging forward with the arms and leaving the wrists alone simply creates what other swing concepts try to force or intentionally maintain (Dustin Johnson’s bowed wristed at top, Hogan’s left wrist supination, etc). Amazing how effortless it becomes but how much I fight it on course, when my mind tells me “that relaxed you will not be able to control ball flight, tense up!”... I guess the more I practice it the more I will be able to let go while playing and just swing the club and let the club do its job of sending the ball to the target.

Moral of the story: practice 10,20,30 yard shots to start to feel the lag and swinging the ENTIRE club without leverage.

[DrDon]

I am always in search of more distance. Every player with a lower handicap than mine hits the ball further and higher than I do.

 

By finally sticking with the MDLT concept, my shotmaking consistency has greatly improved (rather than using a new swing technique every other week). But, I'm still looking for more power. Within the MLDT concept, I'm focusing on keeping the radius of my swing by keeping my hands away from my body. When I try to speed up my arms too much reaching for additional distance, I get out of sequence -- my body doesn't react fast enough and my balance is off.

 

Any thoughts from the MLDT crowd as to how to improve my distance. My handicap is 9.5 and I pitch, chip, and putt like a 5 handicapper. Yes, my long game needs to improve. It's tough hitting fairway woods and hybrids into par 4s when better players are hitting short irons.

 

 

[juststeve]

> @DrDon said:

> I am always in search of more distance. Every player with a lower handicap than mine hits the ball further and higher than I do.

>

> By finally sticking with the MDLT concept, my shotmaking consistency has greatly improved (rather than using a new swing technique every other week). But, I'm still looking for more power. Within the MLDT concept, I'm focusing on keeping the radius of my swing by keeping my hands away from my body. When I try to speed up my arms too much reaching for additional distance, I get out of sequence -- my body doesn't react fast enough and my balance is off.

>

> Any thoughts from the MLDT crowd as to how to improve my distance. My handicap is 9.5 and I pitch, chip, and putt like a 5 handicapper. Yes, my long game needs to improve. It's tough hitting fairway woods and hybrids into par 4s when better players are hitting short irons.

>

>

 

I can offer a few things for you to think about:

 

1. Your body is not responding because it is not sufficiently relaxed and responsive to move in response to the arms. Tension is the enemy. So are deliberate efforts to make the body move. If you are making your body move it's not responding and you will probably make it move too soon, too late, to fast, to slow, not enough or too much. It must be a response.

 

2. Your coil may be deficient. Not always but often this come from mismanagement of your weight before and during the swing. At address your weight is distributed equally, right foot left foot, and the equal distribution of weight continues until the end of the back swing. There may be some weight moving toward the front foot, in the forward swing, prior to impact, but by no means should you be trying to make that happen. Your intention should be to maintain the equal distribution until the ball is hit.

 

3. Finally it may be a set up problem. Set up in balance which means equal weight distribution, right and left, club head in the center of your stance, alignment parallel left of your target. Your body will respond better as its starting position becomes better.

 

4. Given all of that, you hit the ball further by swinging the club, with your arms, faster.

 

Good luck.

 

Steve

[Cg1013]

Nm

[BigEx44]

> @juststeve said:

> > @DrDon said:

> > I am always in search of more distance. Every player with a lower handicap than mine hits the ball further and higher than I do.

> >

> > By finally sticking with the MDLT concept, my shotmaking consistency has greatly improved (rather than using a new swing technique every other week). But, I'm still looking for more power. Within the MLDT concept, I'm focusing on keeping the radius of my swing by keeping my hands away from my body. When I try to speed up my arms too much reaching for additional distance, I get out of sequence -- my body doesn't react fast enough and my balance is off.

> >

> > Any thoughts from the MLDT crowd as to how to improve my distance. My handicap is 9.5 and I pitch, chip, and putt like a 5 handicapper. Yes, my long game needs to improve. It's tough hitting fairway woods and hybrids into par 4s when better players are hitting short irons.

> >

> >

>

> I can offer a few things for you to think about:

>

> 1. Your body is not responding because it is not sufficiently relaxed and responsive to move in response to the arms. Tension is the enemy. So are deliberate efforts to make the body move. If you are making your body move it's not responding and you will probably make it move too soon, too late, to fast, to slow, not enough or too much. It must be a response.

>

> 2. Your coil may be deficient. Not always but often this come from mismanagement of your weight before and during the swing. At address your weight is distributed equally, right foot left foot, and the equal distribution of weight continues until the end of the back swing. There may be some weight moving toward the front foot, in the forward swing, prior to impact, but by no means should you be trying to make that happen. Your intention should be to maintain the equal distribution until the ball is hit.

>

> 3. Finally it may be a set up problem. Set up in balance which means equal weight distribution, right and left, club head in the center of your stance, alignment parallel left of your target. Your body will respond better as its starting position becomes better.

>

> 4. Given all of that, you hit the ball further by swinging the club, with your arms, faster.

>

> Good luck.

>

> Steve

Steve,

At its most basic level, would you classify the MDLT swing as more upright/vertical? A two plane (vs one plane) swing?

 

[juststeve]

> @BigEx44 said:

> > @juststeve said:

> > > @DrDon said:

> > > I am always in search of more distance. Every player with a lower handicap than mine hits the ball further and higher than I do.

> > >

> > > By finally sticking with the MDLT concept, my shotmaking consistency has greatly improved (rather than using a new swing technique every other week). But, I'm still looking for more power. Within the MLDT concept, I'm focusing on keeping the radius of my swing by keeping my hands away from my body. When I try to speed up my arms too much reaching for additional distance, I get out of sequence -- my body doesn't react fast enough and my balance is off.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts from the MLDT crowd as to how to improve my distance. My handicap is 9.5 and I pitch, chip, and putt like a 5 handicapper. Yes, my long game needs to improve. It's tough hitting fairway woods and hybrids into par 4s when better players are hitting short irons.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I can offer a few things for you to think about:

> >

> > 1. Your body is not responding because it is not sufficiently relaxed and responsive to move in response to the arms. Tension is the enemy. So are deliberate efforts to make the body move. If you are making your body move it's not responding and you will probably make it move too soon, too late, to fast, to slow, not enough or too much. It must be a response.

> >

> > 2. Your coil may be deficient. Not always but often this come from mismanagement of your weight before and during the swing. At address your weight is distributed equally, right foot left foot, and the equal distribution of weight continues until the end of the back swing. There may be some weight moving toward the front foot, in the forward swing, prior to impact, but by no means should you be trying to make that happen. Your intention should be to maintain the equal distribution until the ball is hit.

> >

> > 3. Finally it may be a set up problem. Set up in balance which means equal weight distribution, right and left, club head in the center of your stance, alignment parallel left of your target. Your body will respond better as its starting position becomes better.

> >

> > 4. Given all of that, you hit the ball further by swinging the club, with your arms, faster.

> >

> > Good luck.

> >

> > Steve

> Steve,

> At its most basic level, would you classify the MDLT swing as more upright/vertical? A two plane (vs one plane) swing?

>

 

Sorry but I don't understand enough about the one plane/two plane distinction to give you an intelligent answer.

 

Steve

[dlygrisse]

> @juststeve said:

> > @BigEx44 said:

> > > @juststeve said:

> > > > @DrDon said:

> > > > I am always in search of more distance. Every player with a lower handicap than mine hits the ball further and higher than I do.

> > > >

> > > > By finally sticking with the MDLT concept, my shotmaking consistency has greatly improved (rather than using a new swing technique every other week). But, I'm still looking for more power. Within the MLDT concept, I'm focusing on keeping the radius of my swing by keeping my hands away from my body. When I try to speed up my arms too much reaching for additional distance, I get out of sequence -- my body doesn't react fast enough and my balance is off.

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts from the MLDT crowd as to how to improve my distance. My handicap is 9.5 and I pitch, chip, and putt like a 5 handicapper. Yes, my long game needs to improve. It's tough hitting fairway woods and hybrids into par 4s when better players are hitting short irons.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I can offer a few things for you to think about:

> > >

> > > 1. Your body is not responding because it is not sufficiently relaxed and responsive to move in response to the arms. Tension is the enemy. So are deliberate efforts to make the body move. If you are making your body move it's not responding and you will probably make it move too soon, too late, to fast, to slow, not enough or too much. It must be a response.

> > >

> > > 2. Your coil may be deficient. Not always but often this come from mismanagement of your weight before and during the swing. At address your weight is distributed equally, right foot left foot, and the equal distribution of weight continues until the end of the back swing. There may be some weight moving toward the front foot, in the forward swing, prior to impact, but by no means should you be trying to make that happen. Your intention should be to maintain the equal distribution until the ball is hit.

> > >

> > > 3. Finally it may be a set up problem. Set up in balance which means equal weight distribution, right and left, club head in the center of your stance, alignment parallel left of your target. Your body will respond better as its starting position becomes better.

> > >

> > > 4. Given all of that, you hit the ball further by swinging the club, with your arms, faster.

> > >

> > > Good luck.

> > >

> > > Steve

> > Steve,

> > At its most basic level, would you classify the MDLT swing as more upright/vertical? A two plane (vs one plane) swing?

> >

>

> Sorry but I don't understand enough about the one plane/two plane distinction to give you an intelligent answer.

>

> Steve

 

I have read Manual's book and do my best to follow his principles, I have also gone down the rabbit hole on many other swing theories, including reading Hardy's book. Thankfully MDLT's theories are the ones which seemed to have stuck with me now for several years after many years of experimenting, and buying books etc.

I will says this, the basic motion is closer to the 2 plane, the 1 plane in Hardy's book focuses more on body rotation, which is the opposite of MDLT, who emphasises swinging the arms (edit: swinging the entire club forward with the arms) on letting the body react. MDLT does touch on the swing plane in his book. If you go with MDLT's "method" then jump in with both feet and DO NOT try to mix methods, Hardy's 2 plane concept is much more exaggerated in my opinion, in terms of the 2 planes whereas MDLT's method is just swinging the club back with the hands and forward with the arms. Your body type, the club, will take care of where the plane happens to be.

 

Hardy, IMO came up with his concepts to sell books, he came up with two distinctly different styles and tries to lump everyone into one of those. Reading his books he clearly believes in the 1 plane concept more than the 2 plane. If you are going with MDLT or any other teacher forget the idea of one or 2 plane, this is just Hardy trying to sell books, not real proven fundamentals that have been taught over time. His 1 plane swing works for a lot of people, but it is much like MDLT in that you need to jump in with both feet and not pay attention to anything else.

 

If I were to compare MDLT to anyone else it would probably be Jim Flick in his later years or Bob Toski, same basic idea but a slightly different way of explaining it. ( would be curious to know if they ever sat down and discussed the swing at a clinic or seminar.)But again, stick with one message, if you mix messages it will typically get you out of sync. Edit: I am pretty sure I remember seeing video of Toski or Flick quoting Ernest Jones, which is of course whom manuals father taught with. Keep in mind most all teachers have a different way of explaining some things, this is more of an art than a science in my opinion.

 

All golf swings have 2 planes, even Moe Normans, it's just the differential between the two planes is smaller with some people. If you focus is on 1 vs. 2 plane, then you are focusing on the wrong thing in my opinion.

[NoTalentLefty]

Just trying to keep this post alive. I was looking on YouTube for anything MDLT and came across his 1986 presentation at the PGA teachers meeting. He did say that other swing methods can work for a pro only because they practice everyday. He reminded those present that they are dealing with golfers who don't have the time and/or the access to do that. His preference for putting the club in the middle of the stance was based on making it easier for the golfer to have a consistent reference point for every club in the bag. Sorry I don't have the link here but it is easy to find. Gives a solid reason why most of us should be using his method and stop pretending we are such fine athletes as the more advanced players.

[skajaquada77]

> @NoTalentLefty said:

> Just trying to keep this post alive. I was looking on YouTube for anything MDLT and came across his 1986 presentation at the PGA teachers meeting. He did say that other swing methods can work for a pro only because they practice everyday. He reminded those present that they are dealing with golfers who don't have the time and/or the access to do that. His preference for putting the club in the middle of the stance was based on making it easier for the golfer to have a consistent reference point for every club in the bag. Sorry I don't have the link here but it is easy to find. Gives a solid reason why most of us should be using his method and stop pretending we are such fine athletes as the more advanced players.

 

I find it to be absolutely true. My playing partner has been struggling to consistently shoot in the 90s for the past year or so. He does not folllow Manuel teachings and I never try to get involve in giving advice, specially while playing. The only thing I showed him is that we should be chipping with more than the wedges, and I proved it to him by telling him to chip with a 7 or 5 iron after missing/skulling/chunking is wedges. The results were always better and now he turns to me and asks me which iron every time he has a chip. Hopefully he can fly solo soon and can figure out the distances on his own. He dropped 5 strokes for sure on his scorecards with this one single change to his game.

And talking about this, do you guys notice how far in Manuel takes his club when chipping? It is toe up but the line seems to be way out to the right of the target, unless it is a visual effect.

 

[Golfbeat]

> @DrDon said:

> I am always in search of more distance. Every player with a lower handicap than mine hits the ball further and higher than I do.

>

> By finally sticking with the MDLT concept, my shotmaking consistency has greatly improved (rather than using a new swing technique every other week). But, I'm still looking for more power. Within the MLDT concept, I'm focusing on keeping the radius of my swing by keeping my hands away from my body. When I try to speed up my arms too much reaching for additional distance, I get out of sequence -- my body doesn't react fast enough and my balance is off.

>

> Any thoughts from the MLDT crowd as to how to improve my distance. My handicap is 9.5 and I pitch, chip, and putt like a 5 handicapper. Yes, my long game needs to improve. It's tough hitting fairway woods and hybrids into par 4s when better players are hitting short irons.

>

>

Might try to swing the Orange Whip on a regular basis.

 

[mocokid]

Best way to get rid of excess body movement forward in the downswing? Mdlt drills? I've been a life time slider. MDLT method keeps body more quiet on down swing. Trying to get the body passive and react to, not lead the arms, just get out of way, as club and arm swing to target as I understand the method.

[bjornarneson]

> @mocokid said:

> Best way to get rid of excess body movement forward in the downswing? Mdlt drills? I've been a life time slider. MDLT method keeps body more quiet on down swing. Trying to get the body passive and react to, not lead the arms, just get out of way, as club and arm swing to target as I understand the method.

 

I'm not the foremost expert on MDLT, but I wonder whether some feet-together drills while using Manny's forward swing concept would help you feel the proper sequencing?

[skajaquada77]

> @bjornarneson said:

> > @mocokid said:

> > Best way to get rid of excess body movement forward in the downswing? Mdlt drills? I've been a life time slider. MDLT method keeps body more quiet on down swing. Trying to get the body passive and react to, not lead the arms, just get out of way, as club and arm swing to target as I understand the method.

>

> I'm not the foremost expert on MDLT, but I wonder whether some feet-together drills while using Manny's forward swing concept would help you feel the proper sequencing?

 

Works wonders

[juststeve]

I can't recommend the feet together drill too highly for those employing the MDLT swing. Central to the concept is that the club moves around a a STATIONARY swing center. The stationary center is what causes the arc to bottom out in the same place, time after time without any conscious manipulation of the club.

 

The feet together drill keeps the swing center from moving side to side as the club moves side to side. Any side to side motion of the center will result in an impairment of balance, something we instinctively seeks to avoid.

 

Hit balls with you feet together, lots of balls, and see good things happen to your swing and ball contact.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[mocokid]

thanks, makes sense. By the way, who are the pros most like MDLT? T. Aaron, G Littler? Al Geiberger ?, Ernie Els? These seem to put most importance on swing of arms and club vs. body action. V. Singh?

[skajaquada77]

> @mocokid said:

> thanks, makes sense. By the way, who are the pros most like MDLT? T. Aaron, G Littler? Al Geiberger ?, Ernie Els? These seem to put most importance on swing of arms and club vs. body action. V. Singh?

 

I remember a couple of months ago, before the Masters, a Canadian player won the Valero with a swing that I thought was very arm driven. Conners.

 

[juststeve]

> @mocokid said:

> thanks, makes sense. By the way, who are the pros most like MDLT? T. Aaron, G Littler? Al Geiberger ?, Ernie Els? These seem to put most importance on swing of arms and club vs. body action. V. Singh?

 

I know Tommy Aaron, Ted Purdy, Carol Mann and Martha Nause are MLTD swingers, because the said so themselves. Apart from them it is very hard to tell about people who don't say. If the body responds immediately, as it should, its hard to know if the body is responding to the arms, or the arms to the body. There is some old you tube of Manny hitting some shots around. Look at that and you will see what I mean.

 

Steve

[mocokid]

> @skajaquada77 said:

> > @mocokid said:

> > thanks, makes sense. By the way, who are the pros most like MDLT? T. Aaron, G Littler? Al Geiberger ?, Ernie Els? These seem to put most importance on swing of arms and club vs. body action. V. Singh?

>

> I remember a couple of months ago, before the Masters, a Canadian player won the Valero with a swing that I thought was very arm driven. Conners.

>

>

 

He makes it look very easy....

[juststeve]

> @mocokid said:

> thanks, makes sense. By the way, who are the pros most like MDLT? T. Aaron, G Littler? Al Geiberger ?, Ernie Els? These seem to put most importance on swing of arms and club vs. body action. V. Singh?

 

I want to expand on my previous answer a bit. If we make the question what pros follow MDLT principles when swinging the club we need to first ask what at its core is the MDLT concept. At its core what Manny Taught was that the club must be swung, on an arc, not pushed, levered or pulled, in the direction of the target. That is fundamental and is common to all good golfers no matter how the individual golfer chooses to power the swinging motion. Manny also taught, because he thought it easiest to learn and maintain for the average golfer that the swinging motion was powered by the hands swinging the club back, and he arms swinging the club forward with the body moving in response to these motions. He was not however opposed to the idea that some highly skilled golfers with lots of time to practice can power the swinging motion in other ways. Were such a person to go see Manny he would judge he swing based on the way the club moved, not how it was being moved. He would not change the action of someone who was producing a motion in which the club was swinging properly. With that understanding almost every pro I can think of follow the MDLT principles.

 

On the other hand almost none of the guys I see on he range on Saturdays, digging holes in the turf, are making the club swing.

 

Steve

[The Pearl]

Sheri Steinhauer was a long time student.

 

 

Tommy Aaron.

 

 

When I took lessons with MDLT he mentioned that his favorite swing was Tom Watson.

 

[The Pearl]

I will echo what juststeve has preached in that the two feet together drill is without a doubt the best drill if you are embracing the MDLT approach and might be the best drill in the history of golf instruction. I have had probably 7 or 8 of my golfing buddies try i and despite all being decent players, they can barely get the ball airborne.

 

JustSteve may disagree or tweek my comments but for those earlier in the thread voicing distance concerns the feet together drill is a great way to learn how to properly add speed. You can't cheat with this drill, you either swing the club properly or you don't.

[mocokid]

> @"The Pearl" said:

> I will echo what juststeve has preached in that the two feet together drill is without a doubt the best drill if you are embracing the MDLT approach and might be the best drill in the history of golf instruction. I have had probably 7 or 8 of my golfing buddies try i and despite all being decent players, they can barely get the ball airborne.

>

> JustSteve may disagree or tweek my comments but for those earlier in the thread voicing distance concerns the feet together drill is a great way to learn how to properly add speed. You can't cheat with this drill, you either swing the club properly or you don't.

 

Only "cheating" would be to vary the distance between your feet. I usually give it 6-8" (1-2" and I'll probably fall over). You can then vary it for each shot getting more/less back to your normal width between each feet.

[mocokid]

maybe this one too, body very quiet in downswing, watch his left leg and right foot.

[Cg1013]

Has anyone used this? Seems pretty relevant to mdlt and Jones' swinging the pocket knife. Thinking about buying this or making it myself. https://www.swingthepro.com/

[erikro]

> @mocokid said:

> maybe this one too, body very quiet in downswing, watch his left leg and right foot.

>

 

I’d say this is exactly what Clement teaches

 

 

[skajaquada77]

I like that. I built something similar with my daughter’s jumping rope and my dog’s chew ball. Same concept, easy swing to feel the rotational forces as you swing forward to the target.

> @Cg1013 said:

> Has anyone used this? Seems pretty relevant to mdlt and Jones' swinging the pocket knife. Thinking about buying this or making it myself. https://www.swingthepro.com/