Jump to content
2024 Houston Open WITB Photos ×

Buying a Closed Course


Recommended Posts

Good for you. Not sure I would be investing a golf course right now unless I knew it had land value that could be developed for other uses. They do however say that the first person to own a golf course loses money, but the the third guy has a chance.

 

You will have no clubhouse for a long time, and given the yardage you could focus on golf for real golfer. You have the yardage to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @larrybud said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > > @larrybud said:

> > > Why did it close in the first place?

> >

> > I don't know for sure. My guess is that they were attempting to operate it initially as a country club in a small town that had two. I do not know which one came first. I suspect however due to the location between two much larger towns that have few public golf options that a public course with a good practice facility would go over well.

>

> I mean, it sounds like you have even done the most basic research into this.

>

>

 

The course is three hours away from my home and the possibility came up the day that I made the initial post. I haven't exactly had the time or opportunity to go digging just yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So one question I have in my mind that I just can't see to repress or find an answer online, to whom do you go to first to identify the action items on the list? Do you hire a super to walk with you over the property and address what needs to be done? Or do you hire a design/renovation firm to come take a look at what changes may need to be made?

 

I would hate to fix the irrigation and bunkers and greens as it sits only to need to go back and re-route or shift holes here and there to decrease bottlenecks, waiting and increase the natural flow or take out safety issues inherent with the existing routing/design. There is an absolute cluster bomb of a cart path mess. There is also two pieces of the property that aren't being used that might could take a hole to fix the flow somewhat. Seven could be pushed out to the left to add interest by adding a slight dogleg right to an otherwise straight hole. Might also ease some of the congestion up against fourteen.

 

p6jakdsmkamg.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hire a consultant that you trust. A Superintendent would be a good start. Find one that you trust and throw some money at him to walk the property and give you his thoughts. He will probably be able to point you to other experts you may need as well.

Before I did any of that though, you need to find out the reason "why" it closed. There is a reason why someone took a revenue generating asset and shut the door. If it was cheaper to walk away than it was to keep it open; what do you hope to do to change that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are putting the cart well before the horse......to your original post.

1. Investors first and foremost. There is no way I can do this by myself. 2. Where am I going to get the money?

* Even if a good investment, do you have the network to bring in the money now and for years to come? Why a golf course versus other businesses in your town/city? While money is cheap, would you qualify for loans? Without money everything else is a waste of time.

3.I love golf. To the point I took some golf management classes in college. It is not what I do but I understand the basics of what is going on and I have a fair understanding of agronomy and economy. My wife has a business management degree. She ran a multi-million dollar retail business for about 15 years. I think the business side we could handle.

* Is this something to do in retirement? Are you and your wife still working? You are three hours away, are you going to move? Absentee owner? If such a slam dunk, why haven't others in the town purchased and returned to former glory?

 

Wish you the best of luck as I will certainly be watching the thread.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would relocate. In fact I would relocate first for other reasons then potentially look to re-open the course. That first domino needs to fall before the golf course domino does.

 

Why am I not seeking out investors now? For all the reasons others have mentioned. I don't know yet if it is even a viable business opportunity. To your, and other's points, I don't know why the course closed in the first place. I only have suspicions. Secondly, I don't know how much money it would take to get it turned around and have a revenue stream. Hard to ask for money if you don't know how much you will need. I don't even know if the owner is willing to sell at this point. I only have someone poking around for me to help me answer these questions. It is so early there are many more questions than answers.

 

The intent of the OP was to make sure I was asking the right questions to make an informed decision and if my thinking was right if it were to come to fruition. I was hoping that someone here had ventured down this road before.

 

As it turns out there may be a much closer opportunity that is not a turn around but more of a turn key golf course if I really want to scratch that itch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @smashdn said:

> As it turns out there may be a much closer opportunity that is not a turn around but more of a turn key golf course if I really want to scratch that itch.

At least with a currently operating course you could look at the books and verify where it stands. It'll also be a lot easier to get money if it is currently profitable and others can see that. Hang out around the course on the weekend and ask current players why they play there and anything they don't like. You'll still want someone to look at the irrigation system and facilities though. The irrigation system is a huge expense if that needs major work.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you really want to buy into a sports related business that will allow for a ton of golf.... Buy a bowling alley.

 

I kid you not.

 

Compare.... Busy times are league weeknights, far fewer expenses, (oiling/maintaining 20+ lanes vs cutting/treating 18 holes), don't even consider comparing property taxes, fuel costs, weather... Add the snack bar, game room, weekend kid parties, and beer revenue to the mix and properly managed, it can be quite the cash cow. All with 8-12 (mostly) part time employees.

 

I know two bowling alley owners, they play golf more than just about anybody else I know. Guess where I met them?

 

I also know a two guys who had inherited golf courses, I've never seen either one hit a golf ball, and both courses are now gone...

  • Like 1

X________________________________ Sign Here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m really quite perturbed at some of the comments about not being able to play golf if one invests or works on a golf course. I do fear that it truly will drive people considering a career in the golf industry away from something that has given me so much. Please do understand I am speaking from my own personal experiences only, but I have had the pleasure of knowing other sups that played at least once a week (May not have always been 18 holes but some here and there couple times a week is still acceptable and preferable to quell the itch). While I would agree that when your just starting out it may be difficult, because you can’t be screwing around as the plebe, but that’s true in any industry, not just unique to golf. Once you have gotten your feet underneath you and balanced your work schedule it is eminently possible to play once a week, you just have to make the effort in my opinion. I stressed to assistants that you need to play to “see” the golf course and understand what we’re doing and how it’s affecting golfers. Conversely I would stress that proshop/golf ops play as well to understand what the members/customers are talking about so that they are informed and can address the needs upfront. So I guess to conclude the rant, there’s plenty of time to play golf if you work at a course in any capacity there really is, if there isn’t then I’ll say without hesitation that’s on them for poor time management.

 

I’m only figuring playing once a week or so not everyday, that would be a little bit difficult but you can play several holes here and there and 9/18 round on weekends in the am or late evening etc no problem I’d reckon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I've read in the last few minutes what you are talking about is going to cost millions of dollars. And you still havent mentioned where this is - so I'm guessing that is going to affect a lot of the answers.

 

A nearby course attempted to come back from being overgrown and the new investors dumped millions into it. Only to find that there was a reason they went busto in the first place - not enough business to support it at the prices they could charge. Attempting to re-mow and re-open a course that has gone to seed is an incredibly difficult task.

 

Honestly, it seems like there is a lot you dont know right now so it is going to be hard for people here - who also dont know - to give you honest answers.

TM Stealth2 10.5* - Ventus TR Black 6x

BRNR 13.5 / Kaili Red 75s // TM Qi10 5W/ 7W Ventus Blue 6s

Irons TBD - TM P7MC // PXG Gen6 XP
Vokey 46*/50*/54*/58*

Cody James custom / TM Spider // Left Dash

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@smashdn OK let's get stuck in,

 

Bottom line... you need the bottom line to make sense you can only cover it for so long.

You have a vision and a hope and you need to fairly and fully vette those before taking on a losing proposition.

 

First thing that comes to mind is read this book Not only will it speak to your heart but you'll be able to see some of the underpinnings of there project as it was initally put together. My peers are always talking about scalability the ideas used for BD have absolutely been utilized in many places all over the globe so we have reason to believe that some of them work and would apply to what you may try to do here.

 

fgxy9rsyg9xj.png

 

 

> @smashdn said:

>

> So one question I have in my mind that I just can't see to repress or find an answer online, to whom do you go to first to identify the action items on the list? Do you hire a super to walk with you over the property and address what needs to be done? Or do you hire a design/renovation firm to come take a look at what changes may need to be made?

>

> I would hate to fix the irrigation and bunkers and greens as it sits only to need to go back and re-route or shift holes here and there to decrease bottlenecks, waiting and increase the natural flow or take out safety issues inherent with the existing routing/design. There is an absolute cluster bomb of a cart path mess. There is also two pieces of the property that aren't being used that might could take a hole to fix the flow somewhat. Seven could be pushed out to the left to add interest by adding a slight dogleg right to an otherwise straight hole. Might also ease some of the congestion up against fourteen.

>

> p6jakdsmkamg.gif

 

The map and numbering help. You're right that is a huge cluster all in that same area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You need to write a detailed business plan. Done correctly it not only has future plans and costs but also current operational costs and cash-flow needs for each aspect of the property, short and long-term investments, taxes, plus marketing, staffing and payroll costs, and a break down for how investors get a return on their investments, plus what you bring to the table aside and how much you get for being what sounds like the general partner. Most clubs run in red-ink and survive because the owner has serious wealth and income that needs tax benefits, or the red ink created by a CC or golf club. I know a few acquaintances that own multiple courses for that very reason. On its own, unless "you" have millions to invest, it's going to be near impossible to break even and or make enough profit to return profits to investors.

 

FYI - Bunkers and sprinkling system can cost 800k-2M depending on course configuration and region. Also having water is good but having a million-dollar pumping station is key to effective use of that water. There is a huge list that makes up the P&L of CC. I was on the BOD of an equity CC., plus held leadership roles in various departments.

  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
  • DASH -ProV1x
Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @Pepperturbo said:

> You need to write a detailed business plan. Done correctly it not only has future plans and costs but also current operational costs and cash-flow needs for each aspect of the property, short and long-term investments, taxes, plus marketing, staffing and payroll costs, and a break down for how investors get a return on their investments, plus what you bring to the table aside and how much you get for being what sounds like the general partner. Most clubs run in red-ink and survive because the owner has serious wealth and income that needs tax benefits, or the red ink created by a CC or golf club. I know a few acquaintances that own multiple courses for that very reason. On its own, unless "you" have millions to invest, it's going to be near impossible to break even and or make enough profit to return profits to investors.

>

> FYI - Bunkers and sprinkling system can cost 800k-2M depending on course configuration and region. Also having water is good but having a million-dollar pumping station is key to effective use of that water. There is a huge list that makes up the P&L of CC. I was on the BOD of an equity CC., plus held leadership roles in various departments.

 

 

This post actually reminded/ made me rethink something. If this course does not have a well or water rights; WALK AWAY and fast. We are an 18 hole facility that basically doesn’t water the rough in the summer nor the long grass outside the rough and an average day for us is 800k gallons of water. We are lucky though because we have 2 ridiculously large wells and have access to 2 more.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @farmer said:

> To Pepper's comments and Mallrat, after the length of time the course has been sitting, I doubt that the watering system still exists in a meaningful way.

 

Given those systems are plastic, you are probably on to something.

 

@Mallrat - Having wells are important except wells without an infrastructure pump system means water goes nowhere. Also, who you go to for answers should be written in your business plan. I, wouldn't invest without seeing one. Good luck.

  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
  • DASH -ProV1x
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got to do a little sleuthing yesterday. Stopped in at the country club that is still operating to get their take on things. First thing that comes up is the clubhouse burnt. Ok, got that. I asked why they thought it didn't work out. They seemed to chalk that up to mis-management. < More to come on that. They said the conditions deteriorated as he wasn't "able to get the right guys out there that knew grass."

 

I drove out and took a look at what is left of the course as far in as a dared since there are posted signs all around. The clubhouse is indeed burnt. It would be a complete demo. IMO not a bad idea anyway.

 

I was lucky enough to talk with a guy that lived across the street. I pulled in and picked his brain a bit. His term was eye-sore. He stated that there was a plan for mini-golf (gag) and to keep the driving range operating. He also stated that the course had been there as long as he had lived in the area, close to 30 years. I feel like that is a glimmer of hope. It wasn't until the last ten years under the new owner's management that the course deteriorated. He thought that initially it was opened as a private club that struggled and went public and then went under.

 

My take: The guy over-extended himself doing stupid stuff. Instead of taking care of his biggest asset, the course, he either inherited or built a clubhouse that was entirely too large and grandiose for the area. (Stop me if you've heard that one before.) Perhaps he was going down the road of a banquet hall/wedding rental type thing. He even went to the trouble of a croquet lawn. The only place I have ever seen a croquet lawn was Pinehurst. Keeping in mind our leisure activities around here are fishing, hunting, kids sports and golf, probably pretty close to that order, I doubt croquet was a great income generator and instead was just more turf to intensively manage.

 

The course itself is not that far off from looking like a golf course. It is still recognizable as one to my eye. The neighbor told me the owner had some folks living in one of the equipment sheds in exchange for keeping stuff mowed out front. That will be exciting I bet.

 

Attached are two bad pictures I took from my truck. I didn't get out given the posted signs and the fact that people carry guns around here and I was without one.

 

vff8j6ub6gim.jpg

7ps2xva4jatc.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You already seem to have closed yourself off the the idea that golf courses need some of these side hussles to do what we like to call, make money. Mini golf. Weddings. Croquet. Whatever. Depending on the location - which you still wont say - public courses dont have the luxury of being so narrowly focussed as you seem to be interested in. Especially if they are in an area where they dont have a 10-12 month golf season.

 

Footgolf around here is a good example. Local courses that may have been on the edge of closing took it on because - as most people realize - its better than being closed. More importantly, people who come for footgolf also eat your food and drink your beers.

 

Anyway, best of luck.

  • Like 1

TM Stealth2 10.5* - Ventus TR Black 6x

BRNR 13.5 / Kaili Red 75s // TM Qi10 5W/ 7W Ventus Blue 6s

Irons TBD - TM P7MC // PXG Gen6 XP
Vokey 46*/50*/54*/58*

Cody James custom / TM Spider // Left Dash

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 9 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...