OTT Friday! Help with my OTT re-route...

[biellimo23]

Happy Friday all. I'm looking for some advice. Basically, I have a flat backswing and when I get to the top, I transition by actually making a small OTT move with my shoulders to steepen the club. I dont mind being flat on the BS, but what happens is that my transition often leads to pull draws. I'd like some thoughts/advice on what I can maybe try to soften my transition move. I'm thinking maybe shorten the BS, but as many of you know its one of the most difficult adjustments to make. I have tried steepening the BS but its disaster for me; my natural BS is flat and my swing is mostly driven by my upper-body/shoulder girdle, which I dont really want to change. Any advice or swing thoughts would be greatly appreciated!! See below video:

 

[6i DTL Video](

"6i DTL Video")

 

Thanks!

[glk]

Your backswing is the big issue is your swing. Since you don’t want to change then best to just live with it.

[biellimo23]

> @glk said:

> Your backswing is the big issue is your swing. Since you don’t want to change then best to just live with it.

 

Thanks...I get it, its not that I dont want to change, I just have exhaustively tried to steepen my BS to no avail. The reality is I dont have enough time to actually make the change. I'd rather try to keep the flatter BS and enjoy the few times I am able to get out there and play, but at the same time I would like to try to improve. I'm not looking for perfection, just to get a little better and reduce the pulls, and I think its due to my transition, so I'm just trying to get some insight here.

[MPStrat]

You already transition optimally given where you are in the backswing

 

[biellimo23]

> @MPStrat said:

> You already transition optimally given where you are in the backswing

>

 

Do you think that it will help if I try to keep my arms more in front of my chest? If you look at my left arm, it wipes WAY across my chest.

[glk]

> @biellimo23 said:

> > @MPStrat said:

> > You already transition optimally given where you are in the backswing

> >

>

> Do you think that it will help if I try to keep my arms more in front of my chest? If you look at my left arm, it wipes WAY across my chest.

 

And to get them more in front requires a significant change of your backswing - both pivot and arm/wrist actions. So there you are.

[biellimo23]

> @glk said:

> > @biellimo23 said:

> > > @MPStrat said:

> > > You already transition optimally given where you are in the backswing

> > >

> >

> > Do you think that it will help if I try to keep my arms more in front of my chest? If you look at my left arm, it wipes WAY across my chest.

>

> And to get them more in front requires a significant change of your backswing - both pivot and arm/wrist actions. So there you are.

 

Back at square 1 :s Most of my BS issue is arm lift - I pretty much have none. When I have tried to lift my arms, the club feels like its getting too far away from my body, and also starts to activate my wrists, which I try to keep as loose and non-active as possible.

[glk]

> @biellimo23 said:

> > @glk said:

> > > @biellimo23 said:

> > > > @MPStrat said:

> > > > You already transition optimally given where you are in the backswing

> > > >

> > >

> > > Do you think that it will help if I try to keep my arms more in front of my chest? If you look at my left arm, it wipes WAY across my chest.

> >

> > And to get them more in front requires a significant change of your backswing - both pivot and arm/wrist actions. So there you are.

>

> Back at square 1 :s Most of my BS issue is arm lift - I pretty much have none. When I have tried to lift my arms, the club feels like its getting too far away from my body, and also starts to activate my wrists, which I try to keep as loose and non-active as possible.

 

Not just arm lift you pivot very flat too. And not just arm lift but arm rotation too early and too much getting the club head way behind your hands which leads to the flat backswing with too much depth - and then what your body does to get to impact. And your setup posture which is too upright and also helps you swing flat .

[dlanerie]

Why not activate your wrists? Your backswing needs vertical wrist set, not rolling of the forearms.

[wmblake2000]

OP, I feel your pain. It has taken me a LONG time to figure out a better backswing. You’d think it would be easy, but that wasn’t true for me.

 

The only thing I can tell you is, your option is to improve slowly or not at all. But when you do figure out a better backswing/pivot, it elevates your ball striking. Get a mirror vision app. Get used to slow, half speed swings. Be patient.

[biellimo23]

> @wmblake2000 said:

> OP, I feel your pain. It has taken me a LONG time to figure out a better backswing. You’d think it would be easy, but that wasn’t true for me.

>

> The only thing I can tell you is, your option is to improve slowly or not at all. But when you do figure out a better backswing/pivot, it elevates your ball striking. Get a mirror vision app. Get used to slow, half speed swings. Be patient.

 

Thanks! Yes will look into mirror app, my normal range doesnt have a mirror so this could help alot.

[LyinEye]

You're cooked before the clubhead moves back away from the ball. Study this drill. It's an easy change and you can do every night for free at home.

[MPStrat]

You might find Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion helpful as a concept, because it addresses your move of pulling the arms across the body in the backswing. I definitely see where you're coming from in regard to not wanting to change the backswing bc it won't be easy and will likely feel awful at first. I would recommend getting an in-person lesson with someone qualified.

[wmblake2000]

> @MPStrat said:

> You might find Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion helpful as a concept, because it addresses your move of pulling the arms across the body in the backswing. I definitely see where you're coming from in regard to not wanting to change the backswing bc it won't be easy and will likely feel awful at first. I would recommend getting an in-person lesson with someone qualified.

 

The general point from you post is: IT REALLY HELPS TO HAVE A CLEAR IDEA OF WHAT WORKS BETTER! I personally think the reason it’s so hard to change a swing is we have such a vague idea of what is often a whole set of new feels and motions that you just can’t make the new pieces fit together until you reach a critical mass of understanding. And definitely part of the backswing is no lateral arm motion across chest.

 

 

[glk]

So there it is - pretty mu> @biellimo23 said:

> > @glk said:

> > Your backswing is the big issue is your swing. Since you don’t want to change then best to just live with it.

>

> Thanks...I get it, its not that I dont want to change, I just have exhaustively tried to steepen my BS to no avail. The reality is I dont have enough time to actually make the change. I'd rather try to keep the flatter BS and enjoy the few times I am able to get out there and play, but at the same time I would like to try to improve. I'm not looking for perfection, just to get a little better and reduce the pulls, and I think its due to my transition, so I'm just trying to get some insight here.

 

Summary - insight is change your backswing which can lead to a better transition and ball striking. Which you don't have time to do so back to my original point - enjoy what you have until you have the time and desire to create a better swing - and then yes, seek out quality instruction.

[biellimo23]

> @wmblake2000 said:

> > @MPStrat said:

> > You might find Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion helpful as a concept, because it addresses your move of pulling the arms across the body in the backswing. I definitely see where you're coming from in regard to not wanting to change the backswing bc it won't be easy and will likely feel awful at first. I would recommend getting an in-person lesson with someone qualified.

>

> The general point from you post is: IT REALLY HELPS TO HAVE A CLEAR IDEA OF WHAT WORKS BETTER! I personally think the reason it’s so hard to change a swing is we have such a vague idea of what is often a whole set of new feels and motions that you just can’t make the new pieces fit together until you reach a critical mass of understanding. And definitely part of the backswing is no lateral arm motion across chest.

>

>

 

All great points. I think the feeling of shallow to steep is so ingrained for me that it will take alot of undoing and new feels to begin to understand how to swing a club from steep to shallow. Right now even if I force a steep swing, my transition is the same, I simply cant help it, so I go from steep to steeper...

[Krt22]

I would highly recommend Tyler Ferrerl's book or Monte Scheinblum's Efficient Swing video. Understanding what aspects of the swing steepen/shallow the shaft goes a long way in terms of understanding not only what makes a good backswing buy why/how getting into a better position at the top translates to a better transition. From how flat you are, you have 2 options, come over it or add a big hip slide and drop your right shoulder a ton and hit big blocks/hooks/shanks.

 

I'd also look at your setup, very hard for the hips to pivot correctly with that much anterior pelvic tilt (ie butt sticking out too much)

[Stanks]

Think of 3 moves.

1st and only move backswing is the following: Take your club away reaching left arm parallel to the ground and ensuring the club stays OUTSIDE the hands.

The only two moves thinking about on the down swing are as follows: Upon completion of the backswing (ONLY TO LEFT ARM PARALLEL), first moves are bowing / motor cycle moving the lead wrist and separate your lead should from your chin (and keeping your chin in place).

You'll be less OTT but, this takes multiple baskets of balls to accomplish. And remember, doing to much of something will get you into trouble. Too much wrist bow is bad.

[dasams]

There’s some good advice above. You should also record in slo-mo so that your camera captures 240 frames per sec instead of 30. Then it’ll play back at 30 frames per sec or 1/8 speed and you’ll actually be able to see what’s going on...

[RobertBaron]

> @biellimo23 said:

>I have tried steepening the BS but its disaster for me;

 

How much time and balls did you commit to steepening? Like a large bucket? Six months? Somewhere in between?

 

Only asking because making big swing changes like that can take a lot of time and effort and oftentimes a player will hit a bucket poorly and give up. It’s very easy to stick with what “works” even though in the long run your game would improve if you commit to the change or instruction etc.

[Krt22]

> @dasams said:

> There’s some good advice above. You should also record in slo-mo so that your camera captures 240 frames per sec instead of 30. Then it’ll play back at 30 frames per sec or 1/8 speed and you’ll actually be able to see what’s going on...

 

You don't need that to see how flat his BS is

[Golfbeat]

> @biellimo23 said:

> > @wmblake2000 said:

> > > @MPStrat said:

> > > You might find Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion helpful as a concept, because it addresses your move of pulling the arms across the body in the backswing. I definitely see where you're coming from in regard to not wanting to change the backswing bc it won't be easy and will likely feel awful at first. I would recommend getting an in-person lesson with someone qualified.

> >

> > The general point from you post is: IT REALLY HELPS TO HAVE A CLEAR IDEA OF WHAT WORKS BETTER! I personally think the reason it’s so hard to change a swing is we have such a vague idea of what is often a whole set of new feels and motions that you just can’t make the new pieces fit together until you reach a critical mass of understanding. And definitely part of the backswing is no lateral arm motion across chest.

> >

> >

>

> All great points. I think the feeling of shallow to steep is so ingrained for me that it will take alot of undoing and new feels to begin to understand how to swing a club from steep to shallow. Right now even if I force a steep swing, my transition is the same, I simply cant help it, so I go from steep to steeper...

 

When you say when I go steep in the back swing I go even steeper down. Do you see this on video? I bet that when you think that you are steeper in the back swing you are flat as usual when you make a real swing. Show us on video a real swing with a ball with a steep back swing.

 

Most people can make a steep back swing doing drills and rehearsals but immediately fall back into the old pattern when hitting a ball. I know, I have been there. It takes a lot of relentless and uncomfortable practice to get it right.

 

 

[TB07]

I only looked at the video briefly but you need setup (posture) and BS work before you worry about downswing. Of you don’t want to change that then don’t worry about it and work on Rhythm and timing.