The GOAT (merged)

[Shilgy]

> @"Darth Putter" said:

 

> It could be argued, since Byron Nelson retired early, that Ben Hogan was only the third best golfer of his time. I'm not saying it's true, but I am saying an argument can be made.

> There's a lot of contenders for that #3 spot, I think we had a thread for that somewhere.

 

Funny thing is that same thought was nearly posted by me the other day. Hogan did not become Mr Hogan until Nelson retired and Snead is the all time winner on tour.

 

[maverick]

No one should ever have started the "G.O.A.T." is the first place. Golf has several periods. There is the wooden shaft era, the steel shaft/wooden head era and the modern steel headed, graphite shafted era. It's subjective who is the best of each era. But ignoring the changes of equipment and golf balls is just not right.

[Mikey5e]

> @maverick said:

> No one should ever have started the "G.O.A.T." is the first place. Golf has several periods. There is the wooden shaft era, the steel shaft/wooden head era and the modern steel headed, graphite shafted era. It's subjective who is the best of each era. But ignoring the changes of equipment and golf balls is just not right.

 

Everybody in a particular era played with the same types of clubs. It's not like some were playing hickory shafts and others were playing graphite shafts to have a playing advantage.

[playa]

> @LICC said:

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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @jdl said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing across different eras is impossible, and the 18 number as some kind of absolute criteria is silly for that reason. I think Tiger and Jack are the top 2 and it's a long way to #3.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that Tiger and Jack are 1-2, but it's not a long way to Hogan, and some could argue Hogan as the GOAT. I think if he didn't get injured he may have been 1.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > He was a pro for well over a decade before he won a major, at age 34, so little to do with the accident. People should read history.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > the only argument to that train of thought is that looking at his trending towards knocking on the door right before the war and his dominance in matchplay his breakthrough would have happened around age 30. Again what ifs and what nots but the war took out 12 shots for a few guys. Snead, Hogan, and Nelson probably split a good chunk of those then who knows

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No doubt he was figuring things out just before his military service, but still a late bloomer and war, simply not playing in the PGA and The Open most of his career, and age all took their toll on opportunities to win majors. Won a ton of tournaments in his prime and burned brightly in the majors for a relatively short time, but in the end all the "what ifs" aren't part of the equation. I know you get that.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, he missed most of a year of golf because of the accident and it had lifelong consequences, but he played his best golf after that and for awhile - in the end, skills diminished a bit because he was headed north of 40 years old and he couldn't putt.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Tiger and Jack - wins, majors, sustained dominance over long careers and each with their own challenges over time, including physical challenges. Just bugs me some folks just recite the Hogan car accident narrative (which we all know about) like the guy posting above who obviously gave no thought to the fact that Hogan simply ran out of time. The fact he didn't win early in his career is more argument against any GOAT consideration than it is excuse.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Incredible talent and story and one of the all time greats, but a couple of other all time greats were winning their share when he was winning as well. Snead vs. Hogan vs. Player vs. even Watson (none GOATs) and Palmer is a lot more relevant conversation I think than trying to put Hogan in a conversation with Nicklaus and Tiger. Player's career was incredible, just that lots of people enjoy not liking him, Snead was incredible but like Palmer and Watson couldn't get that career grand slam.

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> > > > > > > > > > > So what that Hogan didn't win early in his career? Tiger went ten years without winning a major in the prime years of his career. If a World War had taken another four prime years away from Tiger would you say he wasn't in the GOAT conversation? You value longevity over other factors. That's your opinion. Others may look at the 7 or so dominating years of Hogan and say that was the greatest golf played. The comparison also gets complicated given the different eras and equipment. Both sides have valid views.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > LOL, first you don’t realize he didn’t win early, now it’s irrelevant.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You aren’t even making sense talking about Tiger. He has 15 majors, 80+ wins with his 10 years of absence from winnng majors - makes his case vs. Hogan being a late bloomer even more a no brainer and no contest. Again the point you keep missing completely.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Jack now isn’t the GOAT because he MIGHT have contracted schistosomiasis and missed his most productive years. Earthquake could have cancelled a few majors.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > California - tumbles into the sea, that’ll be the day Tiger go back Jack and do it again.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You are missing the point. You are only basing your opinion on longetivity. Others may look at the highest level of golf played over a several year period. In that regard, Hogan is right there with the top players ever.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ok let's play this game. Best 9 year stretch of any career:

> > > > > > > > Hogan (1945-1953): 9 majors, 47 wins

> > > > > > > > Jack (1965-1973): 10 majors, 40 wins

> > > > > > > > Tiger (1999-2007): 12 majors, 54 wins

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now, by this metric (and what I meant by "my eyes" in my previous post) Tiger is far and away the best golfer ever. When Tiger played his absolute best golf, it was a train wreck for all the other guys on tour. Hogan certainly has a comparable resume to Jack if we use the best 9 years, the problem is: Jack has another 3-4 years that could be included that would be considered extraordinary for most golfers. 1962, 1963, and 1975 for Jack would be a great career for 99.9% of golfers and I didn't include those because they aren't as good as the others. With Hogan, those 9 represent his absolute best. No war years, no early struggling years. Only his best years on tour. Was Hogan great, of course...Could we play the "what if?" game with him absolutely...but if we play "what if?" with each of these 3, then I think it tilts even further in Tiger's favor and farther from the other two. Tiger has had probably 10 years of his golf life so far limited by injury, personal mess, and swing changes. In fact, if you can imagine, the stretch I picked for Tiger included a year where he won 1 tournament. If you swap it with 2008, you get 13 majors and 57 wins.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You have to adjust your analysis because over that 9 year period, Hogan had significantly fewer majors to play. Because the PGA Championship and the British Open were usually the same week. And there was no British Open or Masters or US Open in 1945 still because of WWII. And what we call "Majors" today was different in the 1940s. The Western Open was considered a major back then, probably as much or more than the Masters or the British Open in the 1940s, and Hogan won it in 1946 and 1948.

> > > > > > > Hogan won 9 majors in 16 starts (not including the Western Open). That is incredible and unmatched even by Tiger and Jack.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Western was considered a big event back then-much like the Players is today. Is the Players a major?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When comparing careers the total is what matters. Hogan did not play just 9 years did he? GOAT is a career narrative. Not a hot streak examination.

> > > > >

> > > > > 9 majors over 16 starts over a 7-year period, is a hot streak?

> > > >

> > > > Yes- in a way. Whose fault is it that he turned pro at the age of 18 but did not win an event on his own until age 27? And did not win his first major until age 34?

> > >

> > > Irrelevant if you are looking at the GOAT by way of the greatest level of golf played over several years, and not by long-term compiling. And the Western Open was not just a "big event". It was considered a major.

> >

> > Greatest 1 year of golf: Tiger 2000

> > Greatest 2 years: Tiger 2000-2001 (or 1999-2000)

> > Greatest 3 years: Tiger 1999-2001

> > Greatest 4 years: Tiger 1999-2002

> > Greatest 5 years: Tiger 1999-2003

> > ...

> > Greatest 10 years: Tiger 1999-2008

> > ...

> > Greatest 15 years: Tiger 1996-2010

> > ...

> > Greatest 24 years: Tiger 1996-2019

> >

> > I think there may be a pattern here.

> >

>

> It's arguable that Hogan in 1953 was the best ever. In this article, Hogan has 3 of the best 10 seasons ever:

>

> https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/best-pga-tour-seasons-all-time

>

> I'm not even saying that Hogan is the GOAT over Tiger. I would put Tiger as the GOAT. But if you are having the conversation, it doesn't include just Jack and Tiger. Hogan has to be in the conversation.

 

I agree with this. Raw stats are not the only way to measure greatness. Hogan had an unbelievable career when you put into context how many years he was able to play at his best. As documented his early hook problems cost him a few years. Then there was WW2, the car accident and the lack of air travel making it hard to play the Open and PGA. He didn’t have the same window as Jack and Tiger to build up majors and wins.

I think the true measure of greatness is the standing of golfers compared to their contemporaries, and in that regard Hogan is certainly in the conversation.

There are only 3 golfers who have absolutely stood out as being dominant and clearly on a level above the rest imo. Tiger, Jack and Hogan. Nobody else.