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TGM Experts: Hitter vs Swinger Tour Pros


JD3

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Not sure I fully understand the difference between these 2 styles, but it seems like the "hitter's" shoulder turn comes to a stop fairly close to chest being parallel with the target line at the finish of their swing. The "swinger" on the other hand would have a fuller shoulder turn, wherein shoulders finish more perpendicular to the target line, if not even further wherein their back is turned parallel to it. The hitter then lacking the centrifugal force of the swinger, uses more right arm thrust (right handed golfer) to generate power. If this is correct I would think good examples of "hitters" are Henrik Stenson and Phil Mickelson:

 

 

Good examples of "swingers" are Adam Scott and Rory McIlroy.

 

 

Just want to make sure we're on the same before I delve further into the subject.

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I gotta think Phil is the ultimate swinger. (well actually Tiger, but that's another thread) :)

John Rahm has to be a hitter...??

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> @dlygrisse said:

> I gotta think Phil is the ultimate swinger. (well actually Tiger, but that's another thread) :)

> John Rahm has to be a hitter...??

 

What do you look for to determine how to categorize them?

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Hitting: angled hinge where the club face is at right angles to the path from p6-p8

Swinging: Horizontal hinge where the toe points to the sky from hip to hip.

Hitting: Short back swing and "flying elbow" at the top - aiming for a thrust down and through impact.

Swinging: Possible longer back swing, and trail forearm vertical at the top - aiming for a pitch-like motion where the trail elbow leads the hands for a while before it's released.

Hitting: Slow transition. Patience is required to get the trail hand in position to thrust without cranking the club face open.

Swinging: Powerful transition, that is used to generate swing speed, where you leave the hands behind and just turn hard. A wide open club face after transition closes as part of the release.

 

There's also a thing called 4 barrel hitting. It is basically a swing with a hit added towards impact. And it's supposed to be the most powerful of them all. And to the extent that you will see hitters on TV these days, they are likely to be 4 barrel hitters.

 

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Nicklaus hitter? Reverse C were hitters? Is that why it's not prevalent today?

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No. Reverse C has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with throw vs thrust. Think javelin throw vs shot put. The javelin thrower leads with the pivot and then the pitch elbow follows. A chain reaction. The shot putter uses his pivot as a launching pad. The same difference is supposed to be present between hitters and swingers in golf. But I'm not sure how easy it is to find a pure hitter out there. Not even sure that it's a possibility.

 

Brian Gay could perhaps be classified as a hitter. And Arnold Palmer. I once thought that Jesper Parnevik was a hitter - he certainly had angled hinge with his irons...

 

Just to complicate matters: In swinging, there is extencior action. It means that you use the trail arm to extend the lead arm. Or in today's lingo: To create and sustain width. While a hitter is supposed to thrust down towards the ball, the swinger uses the trail arm to maintain extension. But even a swinger straightens the elbow eventually, usually from a pitch position. But a swinger can also have a punch elbow. Rory has that. I wouldn't classify Rory as a hitter, though. It's supposed to fit those who are strong and bulky, and not so flexible.

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Furyk had most pronounced punch elbow of any top player I can think of. But otherwise seemed to be leading the clubhead into the ball with body rotation like a swinger. What was he?

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> @farmer said:

> If you fall into the morass of TGM, you will recover in only two or three years. Trying to chase positions is the worst possible thing you can do to your swing.

 

Yep, many times the unathletic golfer who sucks falls into this trap to improve. That’s why there are so many wackys on here commenting on those threads.

 

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Furyk is a "hitter", can we agree on that much?

 

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> @Lefthook said:

> Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

 

can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

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> @JD3 said:

> > @Lefthook said:

> > Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

>

> can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

 

I don't mean to be rude, but it's in the little yellow book. You probably should read the book before embarking on this discussion because it will answer most, if not all of your questions about this stuff.

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> @JD3 said:

> > @Lefthook said:

> > Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

>

> can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

 

Pulls from the lead shoulder and lead arm.

 

That's the easy part to understand. What I don't understand is how drive-loading can be an alternativ and not just a small add-on. Rotation is vital in all golf swings.

 

Swinging is about dragging, hitting is supposed to be about driving (and pushing). I can see the former and I can see how the latter creates a variation to the former, but I have a big problem seeing a hittting pattern that doesn't rely 90+% on swing forces. Then there's a thing in TGM called "right arm swinging" (for right handers). A right arm swing happens when the right arm & shoulder does what the left arm & shoulder does in most golf swings. A right arm swinger will typically have very open shoulders and hips at impact. I do not recall at the moment if right arm swing is in the book, I think it is briefly mentioned in the 7th edition.

 

There's a lot of TGM knowledge that lived and still lives in the TGM community that never entered any of the editions of the book. E.g. HK identified an increasing number of release triggers that was never included, and there are variations to the hitting pattern that has never been described in any of the versions. I learned about a few of those in private conversations with very knowledgeable TGM followers. Homer produced a handful of bulletins that gives some context to TGM and there are also a few videos and a few hours of audio tape that adds to the picture. I was so lucky to spend time on internet with Lynn Blake and his followers many years ago, when Lynn decided to enlighten the world about TGM. He produced and shared some very valuable insights based on TGM. I also aquired some very good internet friends in that period, and one of them sent me some "cliff notes" - audio tapes, the TGM bulletins and some very rare video material with Homer Kelley present. I even have a recording of his last TGM speech. He literally died on stage, talking about TGM.

 

But Homer Kelley did not have a precise understanding of Newton mechanics. The yellow book suffers from that. He was unclear about the role of centrifugal force, it seems like he regarded it as a force that could produce swing speed. But all centrifugal force does is maintain speed by keeping an object in orbit. At the same time he used the term G.O.L.F in the title, meaning geometrically oriented linear force. He clearly understood that any force that produces speed has to have the same direction as the club head is moving at the moment the force produces speed. But IMO he didn't see the whole picture.

 

IMO the differentiation between hitting and swinging highlights the weakest part of The Golfing Machine. The hitting pattern and the mechanical explanation can't stand on it's own feet.

 

The best part of the book is a vocabulary that enables us to discuss some very real stroke variations. Even the most persistent TGM critics needs the TGM terminology to criticize TGM. The parts about planes and plane shifts are very interesting and so are the parts about hinge action. The understanding of impact and ball compression foregoes a lot of what we have learned from Trackman and other launch monitors for the last years. And the book contains a very good understanding of variations regarding loading and releasing the club - and release triggers. Among a bunch of other things. But TGM is not peer-reviewed science. It has a lot of good things and quite a few substantial flaws which makes it a very difficult book to dechiffer. The parts about planes and plane-shifts are partly wrong and partly right. E.g. if you flatten the shaft in transition and hit a draw, the club shaft is likely to point outside the ball at P5 when you look at the swing down the line. This is a part that TGM folks seems to not understand. They think the golf club is supposed to be moved on a flat plane at all times, something that has been proven to be wrong in real science and less scientifice but nevertheless rigourus empirical investigations.

 

I feel like today's detailed investigations into the golf swing from Sasho McKenzie and others have made TGM somewhat irrelevant. And the knowledge that we see here on gwx from iteach, Monte, Waldron and a couple of others have surpassed TGM with a solid margin. Personally I struggle to see whether the width that is taught by these three teachers (and others) constitute a 3 barrel swing or a 4 barrel hit by TGM, but I don't think it is very relevant to sort that one out. At the same time, HK described extencior action, which is literally the same thing.

 

TGM is a fascinating book, but not worth the time if you're just looking for info that can be used to improve your golf game. It is a mix of insights and flaws that takes years to sort out. But if you're into the history of golf etc, it may be worthwhile. And if so you should read "Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine". It's a bio that will make you love the man and his quest for the truth.

 

 

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I started reading this thread thinking..."here we go again...they're not going to understand what they don't realize..." I'm an engineer myself and dove into TGM for a while early on chasing positions and ended up driving myself crazy.

Thank you so much Lefthook! Every once in a while a nugget like this appears and restores my faith in the content on this site!

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> @Lefthook said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @Lefthook said:

> > > Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

> >

> > can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

>

> Pulls from the lead shoulder and lead arm.

>

> That's the easy part to understand. What I don't understand is how drive-loading can be an alternativ and not just a small add-on. Rotation is vital in all golf swings.

>

> Swinging is about dragging, hitting is supposed to be about driving (and pushing). I can see the former and I can see how the latter creates a variation to the former, but I have a big problem seeing a hittting pattern that doesn't rely 90+% on swing forces. Then there's a thing in TGM called "right arm swinging" (for right handers). A right arm swing happens when the right arm & shoulder does what the left arm & shoulder does in most golf swings. A right arm swinger will typically have very open shoulders and hips at impact. I do not recall at the moment if right arm swing is in the book, I think it is briefly mentioned in the 7th edition.

>

> There's a lot of TGM knowledge that lived and still lives in the TGM community that never entered any of the editions of the book. E.g. HK identified an increasing number of release triggers that was never included, and there are variations to the hitting pattern that has never been described in any of the versions. I learned about a few of those in private conversations with very knowledgeable TGM followers. Homer produced a handful of bulletins that gives some context to TGM and there are also a few videos and a few hours of audio tape that adds to the picture. I was so lucky to spend time on internet with Lynn Blake and his followers many years ago, when Lynn decided to enlighten the world about TGM. He produced and shared some very valuable insights based on TGM. I also aquired some very good internet friends in that period, and one of them sent me some "cliff notes" - audio tapes, the TGM bulletins and some very rare video material with Homer Kelley present. I even have a recording of his last TGM speech. He literally died on stage, talking about TGM.

>

> But Homer Kelley did not have a precise understanding of Newton mechanics. The yellow book suffers from that. He was unclear about the role of centrifugal force, it seems like he regarded it as a force that could produce swing speed. But all centrifugal force does is maintain speed by keeping an object in orbit. At the same time he used the term G.O.L.F in the title, meaning geometrically oriented linear force. He clearly understood that any force that produces speed has to have the same direction as the club head is moving at the moment the force produces speed. But IMO he didn't see the whole picture.

>

> IMO the differentiation between hitting and swinging highlights the weakest part of The Golfing Machine. The hitting pattern and the mechanical explanation can't stand on it's own feet.

>

> The best part of the book is a vocabulary that enables us to discuss some very real stroke variations. Even the most persistent TGM critics needs the TGM terminology to criticize TGM. The parts about planes and plane shifts are very interesting and so are the parts about hinge action. The understanding of impact and ball compression foregoes a lot of what we have learned from Trackman and other launch monitors for the last years. And the book contains a very good understanding of variations regarding loading and releasing the club - and release triggers. Among a bunch of other things. But TGM is not peer-reviewed science. It has a lot of good things and quite a few substantial flaws which makes it a very difficult book to dechiffer. The parts about planes and plane-shifts are partly wrong and partly right. E.g. if you flatten the shaft in transition and hit a draw, the club shaft is likely to point outside the ball at P5 when you look at the swing down the line. This is a part that TGM folks seems to not understand. They think the golf club is supposed to be moved on a flat plane at all times, something that has been proven to be wrong in real science and less scientifice but nevertheless rigourus empirical investigations.

>

> I feel like today's detailed investigations into the golf swing from Sasho McKenzie and others have made TGM somewhat irrelevant. And the knowledge that we see here on gwx from iteach, Monte, Waldron and a couple of others have surpassed TGM with a solid margin. Personally I struggle to see whether the width that is taught by these three teachers (and others) constitute a 3 barrel swing or a 4 barrel hit by TGM, but I don't think it is very relevant to sort that one out. At the same time, HK described extencior action, which is literally the same thing.

>

> TGM is a fascinating book, but not worth the time if you're just looking for info that can be used to improve your golf game. It is a mix of insights and flaws that takes years to sort out. But if you're into the history of golf etc, it may be worthwhile. And if so you should read "Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine". It's a bio that will make you love the man and his quest for the truth.

>

>

A great and thoughtful post- thanks for taking the time to post it.

 

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  • 2 years later...
On 8/8/2019 at 11:27 PM, Lefthook said:

> @JD3 said:

> > @Lefthook said:

> > Furyk appears to be drag-loading the club; Swinger

>

> can you pls explain "drag-loading" and the implications for a swinger? I think I fall into this category

 

Pulls from the lead shoulder and lead arm.

 

That's the easy part to understand. What I don't understand is how drive-loading can be an alternativ and not just a small add-on. Rotation is vital in all golf swings.

 

Swinging is about dragging, hitting is supposed to be about driving (and pushing). I can see the former and I can see how the latter creates a variation to the former, but I have a big problem seeing a hittting pattern that doesn't rely 90+% on swing forces. Then there's a thing in TGM called "right arm swinging" (for right handers). A right arm swing happens when the right arm & shoulder does what the left arm & shoulder does in most golf swings. A right arm swinger will typically have very open shoulders and hips at impact. I do not recall at the moment if right arm swing is in the book, I think it is briefly mentioned in the 7th edition.

 

There's a lot of TGM knowledge that lived and still lives in the TGM community that never entered any of the editions of the book. E.g. HK identified an increasing number of release triggers that was never included, and there are variations to the hitting pattern that has never been described in any of the versions. I learned about a few of those in private conversations with very knowledgeable TGM followers. Homer produced a handful of bulletins that gives some context to TGM and there are also a few videos and a few hours of audio tape that adds to the picture. I was so lucky to spend time on internet with Lynn Blake and his followers many years ago, when Lynn decided to enlighten the world about TGM. He produced and shared some very valuable insights based on TGM. I also aquired some very good internet friends in that period, and one of them sent me some "cliff notes" - audio tapes, the TGM bulletins and some very rare video material with Homer Kelley present. I even have a recording of his last TGM speech. He literally died on stage, talking about TGM.

 

But Homer Kelley did not have a precise understanding of Newton mechanics. The yellow book suffers from that. He was unclear about the role of centrifugal force, it seems like he regarded it as a force that could produce swing speed. But all centrifugal force does is maintain speed by keeping an object in orbit. At the same time he used the term G.O.L.F in the title, meaning geometrically oriented linear force. He clearly understood that any force that produces speed has to have the same direction as the club head is moving at the moment the force produces speed. But IMO he didn't see the whole picture.

 

IMO the differentiation between hitting and swinging highlights the weakest part of The Golfing Machine. The hitting pattern and the mechanical explanation can't stand on it's own feet.

 

The best part of the book is a vocabulary that enables us to discuss some very real stroke variations. Even the most persistent TGM critics needs the TGM terminology to criticize TGM. The parts about planes and plane shifts are very interesting and so are the parts about hinge action. The understanding of impact and ball compression foregoes a lot of what we have learned from Trackman and other launch monitors for the last years. And the book contains a very good understanding of variations regarding loading and releasing the club - and release triggers. Among a bunch of other things. But TGM is not peer-reviewed science. It has a lot of good things and quite a few substantial flaws which makes it a very difficult book to dechiffer. The parts about planes and plane-shifts are partly wrong and partly right. E.g. if you flatten the shaft in transition and hit a draw, the club shaft is likely to point outside the ball at P5 when you look at the swing down the line. This is a part that TGM folks seems to not understand. They think the golf club is supposed to be moved on a flat plane at all times, something that has been proven to be wrong in real science and less scientifice but nevertheless rigourus empirical investigations.

 

I feel like today's detailed investigations into the golf swing from Sasho McKenzie and others have made TGM somewhat irrelevant. And the knowledge that we see here on gwx from iteach, Monte, Waldron and a couple of others have surpassed TGM with a solid margin. Personally I struggle to see whether the width that is taught by these three teachers (and others) constitute a 3 barrel swing or a 4 barrel hit by TGM, but I don't think it is very relevant to sort that one out. At the same time, HK described extencior action, which is literally the same thing.

 

TGM is a fascinating book, but not worth the time if you're just looking for info that can be used to improve your golf game. It is a mix of insights and flaws that takes years to sort out. But if you're into the history of golf etc, it may be worthwhile. And if so you should read "Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine". It's a bio that will make you love the man and his quest for the truth.

 

 

It is pretty basic physics that one can either pull a golf club or push it. 
 

TGM is a catalog of the myriad of combinations for doing such. 
 

The concepts have to be understood and applied by anyone attempting to improve at Golf. There is no other source remotely like it. And, Kwan et al are at best mere supplements.

 

If you worked with Lynn Blake it is very unfortunate that you never came to understand the vitality and importance of the information TGM provides in just this short segment 

 

Kwan can help on get into this position at Top or End but after that …

 

 

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On 4/17/2022 at 11:07 AM, Zizzer said:

It is pretty basic physics that one can either pull a golf club or push it. 
 

 

You don't understand basic physics if you believe that.

 

Every rotary moment involves forces that has an inward pulling component, often labelled centripetal force. There's no way you can swing a golf club without pulling.

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Yes, absolutely true about torque and centripetal force.

 

But you can produce the torque with your body and arms, without applying torque on the club shaft. You can spin an object that hangs in a rope, faster and faster by moving the hand holding the rope in small circles. Speed is increased as long as your hand is ahead of the curve by a few degrees of rotation. The pulling is not exclusively centripetal, it is directed forward of the instantaneous swing center. And that's the part that increases the speed.  In the start,  the forward part is huge compared to the inward part (cp). But that will change as the speed is increased. Eventually the object will catch up with the hand,  the rope is pulled 100% inward and the speed will cease to increase. Same thing, basically, happens in the golf swing. 

 

 

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      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

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