Green Reading Books and Slow Play Debate

[Barfolomew]

I bet the green books speed up play....... cause they are Cheating by making green reading easier!

 

So weak and embarrassing to the golfing community that our pros need help.

 

I could see them being used for a beginners golf class just to explain whats going on but soon after no cheating allowed!

 

We should add some strokes to a pros final score to know what they really shot.... but even then it wouldn't be enough because of the mental effect of shooting a birdie instead of par or bogie instead of double boge and gaining confidence and playing better because of that by thinking your putting better then you should be.

 

What would Tom Morris think? oh my I can hear him now.... you soft bellied rich entitled wannabees how bout we let you use computers and GPS too to map out the best line to hit

[Barfolomew]

I would bet the best putters dont like them green books cause it **closes the gap** assisting the worst putters more cause good players already got a read on it

[KRAMER1997]

Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

[musclefront]

> @KRAMER1997 said:

> Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

 

Anyone who’s been world number one isn’t a hack, please

[KRAMER1997]

> @musclefront said:

> > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

>

> Anyone who’s been world number one isn’t a hack, please

 

Hahaha Luke Donald was number 1 only cuz Tiger was hurt and Rory hadn't won any majors yet. He's a hack.

[OldTomMorris]

> @KRAMER1997 said:

> > @musclefront said:

> > > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > > Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

> >

> > Anyone who’s been world number one isn’t a hack, please

>

> Hahaha Luke Donald was number 1 only cuz Tiger was hurt and Rory hadn't won any majors yet. He's a hack.

 

Embarrassingly bad take

[rangersgoalie]

> @BeautifulNice said:

> Green reading books should be banned, regardless of slow play. Green reading is a skill. Green reading books replace skill with data unavailable to the average golfer. A guy who can't read greens well can use a green reading book to narrow the gap between himself and someone like Spieth. Spieth's skill is diminished. The pro and his caddy are free to map a green however they like (without laser technology) before the tournament. This is acceptable because the pro is using his own eyes and senses to understand how the green moves. Same with fairways or any other feature of the course. An amateur can do the same. Pros and amateurs should be playing the same game, and only skill should separate the two.

 

 

Funny, there have been a number of times when a player has a caddy read greens and some have made big differences for some players.

Personally, no problem with greens books. I can tell someone where thenputt breaks and if they can’t put the correct pace on it, it doesn’t matter.

 

If they ban them, fine. Don’t let anyone else read them or use notes either and make reading the green thenplayers responsibility only

 

[grm24]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > > @musclefront said:

> > > > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > > > Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

> > >

> > > Anyone who’s been world number one isn’t a hack, please

> >

> > Hahaha Luke Donald was number 1 only cuz Tiger was hurt and Rory hadn't won any majors yet. He's a hack.

>

> **Embarrassingly bad take**

 

Not surprising. He's good at it.

[bodhi555]

> @KRAMER1997 said:

> Luke Donald is a hack who needs to shut up and worry more about getting his tour card. Phil is FIGJAM (a legend) and can do and say whatever the f*ck he wants

 

Well as many people on Twitter are pointing out, it's great for speeding up play if you hit your putt before your previous putt has finished rolling down and off the green :smile:

[munichop]

If the point of the the tournament is an "examination" as many commentators like to opine, the green reading books and course books make the "exam" an open book one. Years ago when I took exams and had both types it was the tendency to think that having access to the book would let you change your preparation because you didn't have to remember everything. Phil in my view has kind of bought into this approach and maybe changed his preparations - to his putting detriment. In my case I tended to do better on closed exams because I took studying more seriously knowing I couldn't use the book as a supplement to my memory. Regardless the other thing that is obvious is my exams were TIMED. So give these guys the information but TIME them so they can finish their "exam" and get their score. Turn in the "exam" late they get strokes added. How come everyone else can see the basic equity in this but the governing bodies who refuse to enforce their own rules while telling everyone what a "by the book" game golf is.

[Pepperturbo]

Blaming green-reading books and abruptly banning them would be an error in judgment. I am sure golfs leadership is aware of that too. That's not to say they shouldn't be eventually banded. Responsible leadership over any organization learns quickly not to take abrupt action on any issue, as too often troubling issues have unseen seriously detrimental attachments. I, for one, am against the use of green-reading books. A "professional" should be able to handle reading greens on his own.

 

Like guns do not kill, books are NOT slow. Both are all about the mentality of the user. The people reading green books, aligning and processing what's read with visual conditions is what is slow. Like a slow computer processor vs. a fast processor. POP, whether tour player or average Joe golfer, is about how the time it takes for each person's brain to process what it takes in. I know many people that are simply slow at comprehending what they read and see with their own eyes. I won't go into the potential physiological impairments, drugs or booze that influence comprehension, all of which are present on each tour, as well as the amateur golfing world.

[davep043]

> @shanx said:

> Silly to blame a book for backing up play, especially if it helps these guys.

I'm pretty sure I've read that Mickelson's putting hasn't improved a bit since he started using the greens book.

 

 

 

 

[Need4spd]

There isn’t a single rule I’d like to see changed more than having green reading books banned. In my opinion, they are in direct conflict with what I would characterize as the “integrity of the game,” or at the very least, the skill required to play the game. Green reading is not only a skill but also an extremely integral part of the game. We don’t let pros use friggin range finders but we let them use green reading books... Are you friggin kidding me?!?

 

All this talk about slow play is overblown if you ask me. The outrage should be focused on those stupid books. In the grand scheme of things slow play is a minor issue at the tour level (the local/muni level is a different story), and not only that, it’s one that’s virtually impossible to officiate (fairly) and fix. Green reading books should be considered cheating, plain and simple.

[Need4spd]

> @Need4spd said:

> There isn’t a single rule I’d like to see changed more than having green reading books banned. In my opinion, they are in direct conflict with what I would characterize as the “integrity of the game,” or at the very least, the skill required to play the game. Green reading is not only a skill but also an extremely integral part of the game. We don’t let pros use friggin range finders but we let them use green reading books... Are you friggin kidding me?!?

>

> All this talk about slow play is overblown if you ask me. The outrage should be focused on those stupid books. In the grand scheme of things slow play is a minor issue at the tour level (the local/muni level is a different story), and not only that, it’s one that’s virtually impossible to officiate (fairly) and fix. Green reading books should be considered cheating, plain and simple.

 

To be clear, my above opinion on green reading books has nothing to do with slow play. Two totally different issues as far as I’m concerned.

 

 

[Mcgeeno]

Books definitely don't make it more interesting to watch. Flipping through a book is not gonna make TV fun. Ban it.

 

Boom easy solution.

 

Next up time all the players and rank them over the course of 10 rounds.

 

Put the slowest 40 guys together last every round on Thursday and Friday. Post it make it a 'slow player list' and put it out there. Monitor them. Hold them accountable.

 

Worse weather, worse greens, less fans.

 

You would have a bunch of them working on speeding up their own games.

 

Problem solved in one season if dudes had some balls to acknowledge the problem and do something about it.

[OldTomMorris]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> Blaming green-reading books and abruptly banning them would be an error in judgment. I am sure golfs leadership is aware of that too. That's not to say they shouldn't be eventually banded. Responsible leadership over any organization learns quickly not to take abrupt action on any issue, as too often troubling issues have unseen seriously detrimental attachments. I, for one, am against the use of green-reading books. A "professional" should be able to handle reading greens on his own.

>

 

I agree that a measured decision is required regardless of whether one thinks they are bad for golf for slow play, closing the skills gap in putting etc. but the ruling bodies allowed the use of broom handle putters and latterly belly putters for close to 40 years before closing the loophole in anchoring that meant those techniques were permissible. I think it's rare that golf's ruling bodies act in a knee jerk manner.

 

[Catty]

While not a green reading book example, I play with an old,school surveyor, he’s doesnt use or need a range finder or distance markers really. He’s looks and says about 155m. I say 165m. I then use my range finder and he is on it or out by a meter. So clearly he would have huge advantage over me using he experience and knowledge, while I have to use technology to come even close.

[davep043]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> Books definitely don't make it more interesting to watch. Flipping through a book is not gonna make TV fun. Ban it.

>

I'm not a fan of green-reading books, I'd love to see their use restricted. But then are ALL course maps to be eliminated? I have yardage books from decades ago, and many show significant detail on the greens, and nobody has complained (at least in the last 30 years that I can remember) about their use. I think there is probably a reasonable way to write a rule to eliminate much of the detail in the present greens books. The goal should be to make them of very little use on the green, but still appropriately valuable in planning shots into the green.

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Blaming green books is a gutless excuse for fear of dealing with the real problem... Certain pros with a slow process that need to be penalized and kicked in the azz!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @KRAMER1997 said:

> HAHAHA who cares what Luke Donald says. he's ranked like 500th in the world.

 

Whats your world ranking?

[PoolPond]

> @JaNelson38 said:

> These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

>

> Look, there are a handful of slow players on tour, and DeChambeau is one of them. But as a whole, "slow play" is absolutely NOT a problem on the PGA Tour. Its a made-up narrative from fans who grow bored watching golf on TV, and think that because they can zip through a round in a golf cart and a half-empty course in less than 4 hours, that means pros should to....which is absurd, considering pros are usually playing courses well over 7200 yards, the course is almost always full when they are playing, and they are walking to boot. Not to mention the scratch on the line each week.

>

> The problem players have with policing each other is that they are each playing for themselves...they aren't part of a team. So in a way its "out of line" to tell a fellow competitor to speed up, slow down, etc. And at some point it might be you who needs the extra time to think about and prepare a shot, so nobody wants to be hypocritical.

>

> One thing Ive advocated for a long time is for the PGA Tour to adopt "ready golf" if all players in a group/pairing agree to it. If you are not away, yet get up to your ball and you are ready to play while your playing partner is not yet ready on the other side of the fairway, you should be able to just play away. Unlike on the greens where you can get a read on a putt, you're not gaining an advantage over anyone else by going first from the fairway despite not being away, unless of course its a match-play situation (of which there is only one tournament on Tour every year with those rules).

>

>

 

They are pro's who play these courses year after year and usually several days of practice. They and their caddies know the greens. They do not need the books to shoot low scores. It's an uneeded crutch. But the books are not the reason for slow play as we don;t use them during our rounds and slow play still kills us. Slow play is typically a direct result of the indivudual's lack of ability to be decisive.

There's more than just a handful of slow players but regardless if it's 10 or 1, it doesn't matter as it's just like the highway. One single slow car in the left lane can slow down hundreds of cars for the whole day.

I don't think slow play has anything whatsoever to do with the tv viewer as slow play generally does not get shown on tv because the directors know how and when to jump around from shot to shot.

The 7200 yards makes zero difference when guys are driving it 320 yards and fans are playing 6800 yard courses hitting it 250 yards. Length of the course makes zero difference.

Walking, especially for the pro's also makes zero difference on their pace. Most of them walk at an extremely brisk pace, it's just the slow guys on tour who back up courses. Talk to one, like a Paul Casey, who has no problem talking about and calling out the slow players on tour. The majority of pro's will tell you it's a actual problem and not a made up narative.

The players don't have to police themselevsas that's what the tour rules officials are for.

A lot of times they do play ready golf. If a guy needs time to hit a shot, the the other guy(s) often hit.

There's only one solution on the tour to slow play and that is penalty shots. Fine $ will never solve it as guys have slow play fine reserve accoutns set up. A $30,000 fine makes no difference to them.

[ExTrumpet]

Make the hole bigger. Way bigger. Fewer strokes is the only thing that will speed up play on tour. The powers that be have proven time and again that they will only penalize some spare that is not in contention. Kinda like when Alabama has a recruiting violation...West Carolina A&I State gets put on probation.

[Need4spd]

> @ExTrumpet said:

> Make the hole bigger. Way bigger. Fewer strokes is the only thing that will speed up play on tour. The powers that be have proven time and again that they will only penalize some spare that is not in contention. Kinda like when Alabama has a recruiting violation...West Carolina A&I State gets put on probation.

 

Huh?

 

[KRAMER1997]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @KRAMER1997 said:

> > HAHAHA who cares what Luke Donald says. he's ranked like 500th in the world.

>

> Whats your world ranking?

 

Number 6, I'm Tiger Woods.

[ExTrumpet]

> @Need4spd said:

> > @ExTrumpet said:

> > Make the hole bigger. Way bigger. Fewer strokes is the only thing that will speed up play on tour. The powers that be have proven time and again that they will only penalize some spare that is not in contention. Kinda like when Alabama has a recruiting violation...West Carolina A&I State gets put on probation.

>

> Huh?

>

 

Sorry, I'll type slower next time.

[bladehunter]

> @smashdn said:

> > @JaNelson38 said:

> > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

>

> Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

 

All of that is situational. You can’t decide before hand where to land it. Unless you know exactly where you’re going to hit every approach from. If you hit a bad tee ball and have a bad angle you can’t always land it on the same spot. These guys are gauging to within 3 ft. Or less. Not large general areas like front right , Left rear etc.

[QuigleyDU]

just let them all use this.

 

https://www.golflogix.com/

[FairwaysToHeaven]

i don't buy that greens books help speed up play. i also don't buy that eliminating them would slow down play. slow players are slow no matter what. same for fast. i also think allowing rangefinders wouldn't change pace of play. slow players would still take forever measuring wind, getting distance to ridge in green, etc.

 

nothing changes until the pga wants it to and begins enforcing pace of play rules.

 

why would the pga tour care? if tournaments are getting over on time, typically with tv coverage ending at 7p est, then why would the pga tour care if players are slow? they can hope to rely on the tv crew to cut to guys only just before they hit. longer rounds and more golf means more opportunity to run commercials. the only downside is if players start complaining. i'm just not sure if pga tour feels it would benefit them by improving the pace of play. i don't see them considering it a problem, and wouldn't doubt they view it as a benefit to run more ads.

[Pepperturbo]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > Blaming green-reading books and abruptly banning them would be an error in judgment. I am sure golfs leadership is aware of that too. That's not to say they shouldn't be eventually banded. Responsible leadership over any organization learns quickly not to take abrupt action on any issue, as too often troubling issues have unseen seriously detrimental attachments. I, for one, am against the use of green-reading books. A "professional" should be able to handle reading greens on his own.

> >

>

> I agree that a measured decision is required regardless of whether one thinks they are bad for golf for slow play, closing the skills gap in putting etc. but the ruling bodies allowed the use of broom handle putters and latterly belly putters for close to 40 years before closing the loophole in anchoring that meant those techniques were permissible. I think it's rare that golf's ruling bodies act in a knee jerk manner.

>

 

No one can convince me that the ruling bodies ever said to each other, belly putters and broom-handle putters are wrong for the game but let's table them for the time being and forty years slipped by. It takes a long time for any leadership group to get past day-to-day operations and bigger issues to focus on details like you mention.

 

I know from experience because I've been the newbie on some important leadership committees, and seen what gets attention and details that are overlooked. I used the term abruptly because green-reading books quickly ended up in almost every pro's back pocket, but because of POP issues, are being noticed as a contributing factor. Maybe if POP problems didn't exist, green-reading books wouldn't be front and center. It's in that way, one issue can easily be overlooked until something of greater importance highlights it as a contributing factor. Have a good day.

[smashdn]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > > @JaNelson38 said:

> > > These guys also use the green books for landing area targets on the greens from the fairway. To take away the green books would probably make things SLOWER, not faster.

> > Can't the player and the caddie take the tee sheet and the hole location sheet for the day and in probably less than 30 minutes prior to the round determine all of the _planned_ landing areas? IMO they shouldn't be figuring out where to land the ball while they are playing the hole but before the round. Maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round.

> >

> > Sure there are variables such as wind and roll-out and lie that have to be taken into consideration but the biggest part of the decision making should be done right?

>

> All of that is situational. You can’t decide before hand where to land it. Unless you know exactly where you’re going to hit every approach from. If you hit a bad tee ball and have a bad angle you can’t always land it on the same spot. These guys are gauging to within 3 ft. Or less. Not large general areas like front right , Left rear etc.

 

I don't think you can say _all_ of it is situational. Just as I didn't say that all of the shots could be executed as planned. I thought it was pretty obvious to us here that have played that not every shot comes off as planned. However, I would guess that for a PGA Tour caliber golfer more than not end up in the ballpark of where they are planning to land their shots. So it shouldn't be an entirely new set of conditions that they are experiencing.

 

As I said, maybe I am ignorant of this but I assumed the player and the caddie talked through the game plan for the day ahead of the round. This way when they end up the left side of of the fairway just short of the bunker right where they intended to play to, the golfer already knows the hole is cut 8 off the back and has 20 short of the hole to cover to stay on the correct tier and we want to be no more than 10 to the left if possible, long and right are dead, short left is a good miss. Seems a plan isn't much to ask for and yes plans must change when the approach angle changes. When they don't why consult the book?