Most overrated big name architect is ???

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @LICC said:

>

> > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> >

>

> You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.

> Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

>

> Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

 

Oakland Hills has been changed substantially. I didn’t include it because of that. It has lots of elements from Trent Jones and Rees so hard to determine how much to call it Ross. I didn’t include Sebonack or Harbour Town for Nicklaus for similar reasons.

 

Which courses would you add to round out Ross’ top 20? Name some and I can tell you if I would play Ferry Point instead.

[RichieHunt]

> @LICC said:

> > @RichieHunt said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > > > Roadking2003 wrote:

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> > > > > > Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

> > > > > >

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> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. was it fun to play?

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> > > > > > 2. was it challenging?

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> > > > > > 3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4. what was the condition?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5 was there a variety of holes?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 6. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

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> > > > > > Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I think Ross' best courses and worst courses are better than Nicklaus' best and worse courses. Nicklaus' designs are much more one dimensional than Ross' as Nicklaus' best courses are approach shot courses whereas Ross' best courses could be driving courses (Oak Hill), approach shot and short game courses (Pinehurst #2).

> > > >

> > > > As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew). Ross' worst courses (Delray Beach) were not terrible designs or torture chambers, just less interesting to Ross' standards and most of the time the course didn't have the resources to stay in good condition or was outdated due the distance gains from modern equipment.

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> > > > RH

> > >

> > > What do you mean by driving, approach, and short game courses? The Nicklaus courses I’ve played have all had interesting choices to make in all three categories.

> >

> > Where the difficulty lies and what makes the difference between a good round an average round and poor round.

> >

> > Murifield Village is an easy driving course. The approaches are incredibly difficult. Same with Pawley's Plantation, Corkscrew, Bear Lakes, Sherwood, etc.

> >

> > Muirfield Village, Sherwood, etc. are awesome courses, but as far as diversity goes he's an approach shot designer.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > RH

>

> I wouldn’t call a course a “driving” course just because it has narrow fairways, which it seems like you are saying. A course could have wide fairways but preferred sides to set up easier approaches. I see that on Nicklaus courses, often with carry hazards to provide risk/reward strategy.

 

Oak Hill isn't super tight, but you have to play for the correct side of the fairway or you get terrible angles and/or have trees to deal with. That's why it's a driving centric course. Muirfield Village is wide open (usually one of the highest hit fairway % of any course on Tour). But it's an approach shot course due to the elevated greens, small landing areas to most prime pin locations, etc.

 

Again, Muirfield Village is an awesome course. But, like Bear Creek it's the same thing...it's an approach shot centric course. It doesn't make Nicklaus a poor designer, but I think Ross is far superior given the variety of his designs and from top to bottom, as good or better than Nicklaus courses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[LICC]

> @RichieHunt said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > > > > Roadking2003 wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Richie; My evaluation of a golf course has nothing to do with age and who designed it. I'm not that versed in course design, so I just ask a few questions;

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. was it fun to play?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. was it challenging?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3. was it beautiful (ocean, trees, etc)?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 4. what was the condition?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5 was there a variety of holes?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 6. did you need to think a little or just get up and whack the ball?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A good comparison is East Lake vs. Cabo del Sol. East Lake is boring and IMHO only highly rated due to the Bobby Jones connection and it was designed by Donald Ross. I played it and it doesn't make my top 100. On the other hand, Cabo del Sol is spectacular. It shines in all of the six areas listed above.

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> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Fun to play is the biggest factor for me. For instance, I really like playing a lot of Arnold Palmer designs because they are fun to play. Like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA. Probably wouldn't make the top-50 courses on any list in Georgia, but I would rather play that than play Echelon, East Lake, and Chateau Elan. I would rather play Victoria Hills in DeLand than play most higher priced courses and private clubs in the Orlando area.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The thing with Ross is he designed a gazillion different courses. He's not going to roll 6's every time. But, his percentage of excellent clubs is way up there and they flat-out beat most of the designers we've seen in the past 30-years. Sure, there are people out there that rate courses based on their history, but I find for the most part the Ross', Tillinghast's and McKenzie's were just far superior overall.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I think Ross' best courses and worst courses are better than Nicklaus' best and worse courses. Nicklaus' designs are much more one dimensional than Ross' as Nicklaus' best courses are approach shot courses whereas Ross' best courses could be driving courses (Oak Hill), approach shot and short game courses (Pinehurst #2).

> > > > >

> > > > > As far as the worst Nicklaus courses, some of them are just dreadful and incredibly un-fun to play (Corkscrew). Ross' worst courses (Delray Beach) were not terrible designs or torture chambers, just less interesting to Ross' standards and most of the time the course didn't have the resources to stay in good condition or was outdated due the distance gains from modern equipment.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > RH

> > > >

> > > > What do you mean by driving, approach, and short game courses? The Nicklaus courses I’ve played have all had interesting choices to make in all three categories.

> > >

> > > Where the difficulty lies and what makes the difference between a good round an average round and poor round.

> > >

> > > Murifield Village is an easy driving course. The approaches are incredibly difficult. Same with Pawley's Plantation, Corkscrew, Bear Lakes, Sherwood, etc.

> > >

> > > Muirfield Village, Sherwood, etc. are awesome courses, but as far as diversity goes he's an approach shot designer.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > RH

> >

> > I wouldn’t call a course a “driving” course just because it has narrow fairways, which it seems like you are saying. A course could have wide fairways but preferred sides to set up easier approaches. I see that on Nicklaus courses, often with carry hazards to provide risk/reward strategy.

>

> Oak Hill isn't super tight, but you have to play for the correct side of the fairway or you get terrible angles and/or have trees to deal with. That's why it's a driving centric course. Muirfield Village is wide open (usually one of the highest hit fairway % of any course on Tour). But it's an approach shot course due to the elevated greens, small landing areas to most prime pin locations, etc.

>

> Again, Muirfield Village is an awesome course. But, like Bear Creek it's the same thing...it's an approach shot centric course. It doesn't make Nicklaus a poor designer, but I think Ross is far superior given the variety of his designs and from top to bottom, as good or better than Nicklaus courses.

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> RH

 

That is circular logic and use of conclusory statements without factual support. Ross is a better designer because he is a superior designer. I’ve played 5 Nicklaus courses and they have all had good variety and risk reward options off the tee.

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @LICC said:

>

> > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> >

>

> You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.

> Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

>

> Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

 

I’ll also note that Ferry Point is ranked the 43rd best public course in the U.S. by Golf Magazine. Higher than any Ross course except Pinehurst 2. Higher than Pine Needles and Mid Pine and Broadmoor. So yes, Ferry Point stands up.

[FairwayFred]

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @FairwayFred said:

> > How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

>

> IDK

>

> Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);

> Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;

> Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

 

I've played BGC and Old Sandwich and imo OS is a much better course. Also id put OS as a mid level Coore Crenshaw course so that's not the best comparison anyways. Rustic is a very good course but he did not do that one on his own he had help. I'd probably put Rustic as his best course and again he had a team to help him and the course opened over 18 years ago. At that point Gil was a young up and comer and what he has done since is disappointing. Ohoopee is not top level either. It's very good but nobody is putting it on any top 50 list. Gil has been at this a long time and imo his list of best original courses is very lacking compared to other top designers of the day. He has the reputation as one of the best of this current time but again imo his resume of original courses is just not there imo. Compare his best courses to the best courses by Coore/Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Nicklaus, Mike DeVries even a Tom Fazio etc. He just doesn't measure up. (He does an amazing job with restoration work I am speaking only of his original courses)

[LICC]

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @FairwayFred said:

> > How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

>

> IDK

>

> Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);

> Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;

> Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

 

Rustic Canyon is terrific. A great course. Streamsong Black is excellent tee to green. Hanse went too crazy on too many greens on that course, which detracts imo

[FairwayFred]

> @LICC said:

> > @raynorfan1 said:

> > > @FairwayFred said:

> > > How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

> >

> > IDK

> >

> > Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);

> > Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;

> > Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

>

> Rustic Canyon is terrific. A great course. Streamsong Black is excellent tee to green. Hanse went too crazy on too many greens on that course, which detracts imo

 

Agreed. Streamsong is another example of a good not great Hanse course.

[raynorfan1]

> @FairwayFred said:

> > @raynorfan1 said:

> > > @FairwayFred said:

> > > How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

> >

> > IDK

> >

> > Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);

> > Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;

> > Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

>

> I've played BGC and Old Sandwich and imo OS is a much better course. Also id put OS as a mid level Coore Crenshaw course so that's not the best comparison anyways. Rustic is a very good course but he did not do that one on his own he had help. I'd probably put Rustic as his best course and again he had a team to help him and the course opened over 18 years ago. At that point Gil was a young up and comer and what he has done since is disappointing. Ohoopee is not top level either. It's very good but nobody is putting it on any top 50 list. Gil has been at this a long time and imo his list of best original courses is very lacking compared to other top designers of the day. He has the reputation as one of the best of this current time but again imo his resume of original courses is just not there imo. Compare his best courses to the best courses by Coore/Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Nicklaus, Mike DeVries even a Tom Fazio etc. He just doesn't measure up. (He does an amazing job with restoration work I am speaking only of his original courses)

 

Fundamentally I don’t disagree with any of this; it all depends on where you “rate” Hanse to begin with. He hasn’t built that Perfect 10 signature course that would put him in the elite group.

 

I see him as sort of the top of the second tier.

[LICC]

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @FairwayFred said:

> > > @raynorfan1 said:

> > > > @FairwayFred said:

> > > > How about Gil Hanse? People fawn over the guy like he is MacKenzie reincarnated but what has he done as far as original courses that is so great? He has done some good stuff yes (I've never played Castle Stuart) and has done some great restoration work but I feel like his original courses are very lacking when compared to his contemporaries and the accolades he gets.

> > >

> > > IDK

> > >

> > > Boston Golf Club is considered a peer to Old Sandwich (Coore/Crenshaw);

> > > Rustic Canyon is spoken very highly of...as a public option...;

> > > Ohoopee Match Club has grown men drooling.

> >

> > I've played BGC and Old Sandwich and imo OS is a much better course. Also id put OS as a mid level Coore Crenshaw course so that's not the best comparison anyways. Rustic is a very good course but he did not do that one on his own he had help. I'd probably put Rustic as his best course and again he had a team to help him and the course opened over 18 years ago. At that point Gil was a young up and comer and what he has done since is disappointing. Ohoopee is not top level either. It's very good but nobody is putting it on any top 50 list. Gil has been at this a long time and imo his list of best original courses is very lacking compared to other top designers of the day. He has the reputation as one of the best of this current time but again imo his resume of original courses is just not there imo. Compare his best courses to the best courses by Coore/Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Nicklaus, Mike DeVries even a Tom Fazio etc. He just doesn't measure up. (He does an amazing job with restoration work I am speaking only of his original courses)

>

> Fundamentally I don’t disagree with any of this; it all depends on where you “rate” Hanse to begin with. He hasn’t built that Perfect 10 signature course that would put him in the elite group.

>

> I see him as sort of the top of the second tier.

 

Has Hanse ever had a site as good as the best of those others you mentioned? I like his course at Streamsong better than Doak’s.

[Schley]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @LICC said:

> >

> > > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> > >

> >

> > You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.

> > Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

> >

> > Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

>

> I’ll also note that Ferry Point is ranked the 43rd best public course in the U.S. by Golf Magazine. Higher than any Ross course except Pinehurst 2. Higher than Pine Needles and Mid Pine and Broadmoor. So yes, Ferry Point stands up.

/

Correct me if I'm wrong but you have stated you have played exactly 2 Donald Ross courses correct? Pardon us for thinking your opinion is maybe not the most enlightened. If your argument is based on lists you don't need anyone else to prove your point. Put up his top 10/20 against Nicklaus top 10/20.

 

Keep in mind that the 400 or so Ross courses he designed we are talking 80-100 years of maintenance/restorations (or lack thereof) which would affect his original layout/design. He has been gone since WWII I believe, so his work has been weathered quite a bit by factors that totally out of his control. Nicklaus is still designing and even his oldest courses are about 40 years old only.

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > >

> > > > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> > > >

> > >

> > > You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.

> > > Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

> > >

> > > Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

> >

> > I’ll also note that Ferry Point is ranked the 43rd best public course in the U.S. by Golf Magazine. Higher than any Ross course except Pinehurst 2. Higher than Pine Needles and Mid Pine and Broadmoor. So yes, Ferry Point stands up.

> /

> Correct me if I'm wrong but you have stated you have played exactly 2 Donald Ross courses correct? Pardon us for thinking your opinion is maybe not the most enlightened. If your argument is based on lists you don't need anyone else to prove your point. Put up his top 10/20 against Nicklaus top 10/20.

>

> Keep in mind that the 400 or so Ross courses he designed we are talking 80-100 years of maintenance/restorations (or lack thereof) which would affect his original layout/design. He has been gone since WWII I believe, so his work has been weathered quite a bit by factors that totally out of his control. Nicklaus is still designing and even his oldest courses are about 40 years old only.

 

To your first comment, again, irrelevant to the discussion. I brought up the ranking because it is relevant to your assertion that Ferry Point doesn’t even “stand up” to any of Ross’ best 20 courses. Clearly lots of people disagree with you. If that is your “enlightened” view then it isn’t very enlightened compared to lots of golfers who play lots of courses that participate on those rankings. Why not stop taking shots at me when I never said anything negative about you and stick to talking about the golf courses.

[Schley]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > >

> > > > > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.

> > > > Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

> > > >

> > > > Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

> > >

> > > I’ll also note that Ferry Point is ranked the 43rd best public course in the U.S. by Golf Magazine. Higher than any Ross course except Pinehurst 2. Higher than Pine Needles and Mid Pine and Broadmoor. So yes, Ferry Point stands up.

> > /

> > Correct me if I'm wrong but you have stated you have played exactly 2 Donald Ross courses correct? Pardon us for thinking your opinion is maybe not the most enlightened. If your argument is based on lists you don't need anyone else to prove your point. Put up his top 10/20 against Nicklaus top 10/20.

> >

> > Keep in mind that the 400 or so Ross courses he designed we are talking 80-100 years of maintenance/restorations (or lack thereof) which would affect his original layout/design. He has been gone since WWII I believe, so his work has been weathered quite a bit by factors that totally out of his control. Nicklaus is still designing and even his oldest courses are about 40 years old only.

>

> To your first comment, again, irrelevant to the discussion. I brought up the ranking because it is relevant to your assertion that Ferry Point doesn’t even “stand up” to any of Ross’ best 20 courses. Clearly lots of people disagree with you. If that is your “enlightened” view then it isn’t very enlightened compared to lots of golfers who play lots of courses that participate on those rankings. Why not stop taking shots at me when I never said anything negative about you and stick to talking about the golf courses.

 

Think about this..........How is actually playing a DR golf course irrelevant to a discussion? It is vital if we are adding our own opinions as opposed to looking at some lists, is it not? Is that a shot or a fact that you have played 2 DR courses? I see it as a fact, not a shot. Not sure why the thin skin there.

 

I remember your thread of DR being overrated previously and restrained myself then as I don't think he is overrated in the least. I don't think Nicklaus is overrated, I just don't typically enjoy his style of golf course design as others (C&C, Doak, DeVries of living architects). Overrated to me is Rees Jones, who IMO did more damage than good in messing with classic layouts for the USGA.

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > I mentioned that Ross courses are overrated in another discussion and got lots of strong opinions. Can you say that his best courses are better than Nicklaus'? Pinehurst, Plainfield, Scioto, Aronimink, Seminole, East Lake, Inverness, Oak Hill, Wannamoisett, Grove Park, Sagamore, French Lick, OR, Muirfield Village, Punta Espada, Castle Pines, Cabo del Sol, Shoal Creek, Mayacama, Pronghorn, May River, Dismal River, Castle Pines, Manele, Punta Mita, Ferry Point.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You are forgetting Oakland Hills for Ross btw. As this thread is about overrated GCA's, why is your comparison even valid for this thread's purpose? Is comparing the best/worst courses for each a way to judge who is overrated? Both Nicklaus and Ross have designed about 400 courses give or take. That is a huge amount, both putting them into the top 5 all time in terms of number of courses I would think.

> > > > > Since you mentioned it, do you really think Ferry Point stands up to any of Ross's top 20 even?

> > > > >

> > > > > Ross was a genius designer and amazed he was able to get around as he did in an age before commercial air travel was widely utilized.

> > > >

> > > > I’ll also note that Ferry Point is ranked the 43rd best public course in the U.S. by Golf Magazine. Higher than any Ross course except Pinehurst 2. Higher than Pine Needles and Mid Pine and Broadmoor. So yes, Ferry Point stands up.

> > > /

> > > Correct me if I'm wrong but you have stated you have played exactly 2 Donald Ross courses correct? Pardon us for thinking your opinion is maybe not the most enlightened. If your argument is based on lists you don't need anyone else to prove your point. Put up his top 10/20 against Nicklaus top 10/20.

> > >

> > > Keep in mind that the 400 or so Ross courses he designed we are talking 80-100 years of maintenance/restorations (or lack thereof) which would affect his original layout/design. He has been gone since WWII I believe, so his work has been weathered quite a bit by factors that totally out of his control. Nicklaus is still designing and even his oldest courses are about 40 years old only.

> >

> > To your first comment, again, irrelevant to the discussion. I brought up the ranking because it is relevant to your assertion that Ferry Point doesn’t even “stand up” to any of Ross’ best 20 courses. Clearly lots of people disagree with you. If that is your “enlightened” view then it isn’t very enlightened compared to lots of golfers who play lots of courses that participate on those rankings. Why not stop taking shots at me when I never said anything negative about you and stick to talking about the golf courses.

>

> Think about this..........How is actually playing a DR golf course irrelevant to a discussion? It is vital if we are adding our own opinions as opposed to looking at some lists, is it not? Is that a shot or a fact that you have played 2 DR courses? I see it as a fact, not a shot. Not sure why the thin skin there.

>

> I remember your thread of DR being overrated previously and restrained myself then as I don't think he is overrated in the least. I don't think Nicklaus is overrated, I just don't typically enjoy his style of golf course design as others (C&C, Doak, DeVries of living architects). Overrated to me is Rees Jones, who IMO did more damage than good in messing with classic layouts for the USGA.

 

Your not being enlightened comment was taking a shot. I’ve played a good amount of courses by lots of top designers past and present in lots of different places. I’ve only gotten to play two Ross courses, and two others where he did a number of holes on each course, so 4 technically. I’m not saying I’m an expert on all Ross courses but I have played a few. This discussion wasn’t about him being overrated as much as comparing the quality of his courses to Nicklaus. And when you look at their best courses I don’t see a clear winner, and those who assert such aren’t giving good reasoning why (you have stated your style preferences, but others haven’t).

[Schley]

> @LICC said:

 

>

> Your not being enlightened comment was taking a shot. I’ve played a good amount of courses by lots of top designers past and present in lots of different places. I’ve only gotten to play two Ross courses, and two others where he did a number of holes on each course, so 4 technically. I’m not saying I’m an expert on all Ross courses but I have played a few. This discussion wasn’t about him being overrated as much as comparing the quality of his courses to Nicklaus. And when you look at their best courses I don’t see a clear winner, and those who assert such aren’t giving good reasoning why.

 

But the title of the thread of overrated designers, you also started a thread that stated DR courses are overrated, so your stance on DR is clear. Why I have yet to actually read. If I have missed it here is your chance..... why is DR an overrated GCA?

 

I don't think he or Nicklaus is overrated at all, just that I don't fancy JN courses on par with others. He has a style and hallmarks which I respect, but don't like for my own reasons (can't roll the ball up to the green due to extensive bunkers and pushed up greens for one). Would relish Ross's best courses, more than JN. That doesn't make JN overrated.

 

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @LICC said:

>

> >

> > Your not being enlightened comment was taking a shot. I’ve played a good amount of courses by lots of top designers past and present in lots of different places. I’ve only gotten to play two Ross courses, and two others where he did a number of holes on each course, so 4 technically. I’m not saying I’m an expert on all Ross courses but I have played a few. This discussion wasn’t about him being overrated as much as comparing the quality of his courses to Nicklaus. And when you look at their best courses I don’t see a clear winner, and those who assert such aren’t giving good reasoning why.

>

> But the title of the thread of overrated designers, you also started a thread that stated DR courses are overrated, so your stance on DR is clear. Why I have yet to actually read. If I have missed it here is your chance..... why is DR an overrated GCA?

>

> I don't think he or Nicklaus is overrated at all, just that I don't fancy JN courses on par with others. He has a style and hallmarks which I respect, but don't like for my own reasons (can't roll the ball up to the green due to extensive bunkers and pushed up greens for one). Would relish Ross's best courses, more than JN. That doesn't make JN overrated.

>

 

I said it on the other discussion but I’ll repeat here. Based on the courses I’ve played and what I’ve read of others , Ross seems to me to be very good, but not head and shoulders above other very good designers with less name recognition and esteem than him. When I’ve played Tillinghast courses, I see the tremendous design- use of the property, variety, the outstanding greens, that feels distinguishable from other good courses. The Macdonald courses I’ve played have been standout amazing. I see the strategy and use of site features in Nicklaus courses and Pete Dye courses. I didn’t sense that with the Ross courses. His were similar to my experiences on Dev Emmett courses or others like him.

[MaxBuck]

I personally believe Bill Coore and Mike Strantz are overrated. Like everyone else's, this is purely opinion based on subjective reactions to their work.

[Schley]

Macdonald didn't design many courses at all unfortunately, Raynor his protege did probably 3 x's as many as CB, however Nicklaus has done probably 6-7 times more than both combined. Ross the same. Again to frame our points we aren't talking which is best, for those that have endured speak for themselves IMO, we are talking which are overrated. I rate Ross as my #5 all time designer. Which is behind Mackenzie, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Colt. I don't think any classic course designer is necessarily overrated, they have stood the test of time. In many cases as I stated earlier their work (Ross notably) has been neglected and haven't had the best care and resources aimed to preserve their work. I simply disagree with any notion of Ross being "overrated" as there aren't 100 different GCA anyway. There are a small number of notable architects and Ross is in the mix for one of the best certainly. His greens stand out to me with plenty of undulations and alternate ways to get to the hole using slope. Pinehurst, Essex CC, Plainfield, Seminole, Oakland Hills, need we say more?

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> Macdonald didn't design many courses at all unfortunately, Raynor his protege did probably 3 x's as many as CB, however Nicklaus has done probably 6-7 times more than both combined. Ross the same. Again to frame our points we aren't talking which is best, for those that have endured speak for themselves IMO, we are talking which are overrated. I rate Ross as my #5 all time designer. Which is behind Mackenzie, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Colt. I don't think any classic course designer is necessarily overrated, they have stood the test of time. In many cases as I stated earlier their work (Ross notably) has been neglected and haven't had the best care and resources aimed to preserve their work. I simply disagree with any notion of Ross being "overrated" as there aren't 100 different GCA anyway. There are a small number of notable architects and Ross is in the mix for one of the best certainly. His greens stand out to me with plenty of undulations and alternate ways to get to the hole using slope. Pinehurst, Essex CC, Plainfield, Seminole, Oakland Hills, need we say more?

 

As we are talking about their best courses the fact they did or didn’t design a lot of them isn’t telling much for this discussion.

 

So you don’t think there has been one designer in the last 80 years that cracks the top 5 golf designers? It seems like you have an “older is better” bias.

[Schley]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > Macdonald didn't design many courses at all unfortunately, Raynor his protege did probably 3 x's as many as CB, however Nicklaus has done probably 6-7 times more than both combined. Ross the same. Again to frame our points we aren't talking which is best, for those that have endured speak for themselves IMO, we are talking which are overrated. I rate Ross as my #5 all time designer. Which is behind Mackenzie, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Colt. I don't think any classic course designer is necessarily overrated, they have stood the test of time. In many cases as I stated earlier their work (Ross notably) has been neglected and haven't had the best care and resources aimed to preserve their work. I simply disagree with any notion of Ross being "overrated" as there aren't 100 different GCA anyway. There are a small number of notable architects and Ross is in the mix for one of the best certainly. His greens stand out to me with plenty of undulations and alternate ways to get to the hole using slope. Pinehurst, Essex CC, Plainfield, Seminole, Oakland Hills, need we say more?

>

> As we are talking about their best courses the fact they did or didn’t design a lot of them isn’t telling much for this discussion.

>

> So you don’t think there has been one designer in the last 80 years that cracks the top 5 golf designers? It seems like you have an “older is better” bias.

 

LICC we aren't talking about best courses, we are talking about overrated designers and have stated Ross's position quite sufficiently.

If you used bias instead of preference you would be mistaken as their places are well deserved.

[LICC]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > Macdonald didn't design many courses at all unfortunately, Raynor his protege did probably 3 x's as many as CB, however Nicklaus has done probably 6-7 times more than both combined. Ross the same. Again to frame our points we aren't talking which is best, for those that have endured speak for themselves IMO, we are talking which are overrated. I rate Ross as my #5 all time designer. Which is behind Mackenzie, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Colt. I don't think any classic course designer is necessarily overrated, they have stood the test of time. In many cases as I stated earlier their work (Ross notably) has been neglected and haven't had the best care and resources aimed to preserve their work. I simply disagree with any notion of Ross being "overrated" as there aren't 100 different GCA anyway. There are a small number of notable architects and Ross is in the mix for one of the best certainly. His greens stand out to me with plenty of undulations and alternate ways to get to the hole using slope. Pinehurst, Essex CC, Plainfield, Seminole, Oakland Hills, need we say more?

> >

> > As we are talking about their best courses the fact they did or didn’t design a lot of them isn’t telling much for this discussion.

> >

> > So you don’t think there has been one designer in the last 80 years that cracks the top 5 golf designers? It seems like you have an “older is better” bias.

>

> LICC we aren't talking about best courses, we are talking about overrated designers and have stated Ross's position quite sufficiently.

> If you used bias instead of preference you would be mistaken as their places are well deserved.

 

It doesn’t stand to reason that not one designer in 80 years is as good as the 5 top designers from the 30 year prior period.

[pinhigh27]

apples to oranges comparison with the capabilities we have now. also with how game is played the course designs are going to be different.

[LICC]

 

> @pinhigh27 said:

> apples to oranges comparison with the capabilities we have now. also with how game is played the course designs are going to be different.

 

They are all golf courses that we play today. They can be compared. For the recreational golfer the game isn’t that much different from years ago, not like it is for the pros. Yes everyone is longer but the effect isn’t as much for everyday golfers.

[DoubleorQuits]

I like Boston Golf over Old Sandwich. Both are good, but BGC clearly got more out of what had to be a difficult site. If you have a played one Coore/Crenshaw course you are unlikely to see anything new at OS.

 

 

[LICC]

> @MaxBuck said:

> I personally believe Bill Coore and Mike Strantz are overrated. Like everyone else's, this is purely opinion based on subjective reactions to their work.

 

What about their courses underwhelms you?

[DoubleorQuits]

Doak

[LICC]

> @DoubleorQuits said:

> Doak

 

Why? Do you think he gets more credit for having great sites than the courses really are worth?

[smashdn]

Rees Jones

[MaxBuck]

> @LICC said:

> > @MaxBuck said:

> > I personally believe Bill Coore and Mike Strantz are overrated. Like everyone else's, this is purely opinion based on subjective reactions to their work.

>

> What about their courses underwhelms you?

 

Strantz's courses to me are deliberately artificial and unnatural, and frankly the bogus "fish camp" stuff at Caledonia rubs me the wrong way. Coore's efforts that I've played have been aggressively the opposite, favoring "nature" over sensibility.

 

Again, just one man's opinion.

[hollabachgt]

> @LICC said:

> It doesn’t stand to reason that not one designer in 80 years is as good as the 5 top designers from the 30 year prior period.

 

I don't think the sentiment is no one from today is as good as the ODG's. But there have been a couple of large industry shifts that have dramatically changed how courses are constructed that has allowed older courses to continue to outshine newer ones.

 

First off, the equipment and style of play used during the original golden age had a very large positive impact on the design of courses. Over time the movement away from a more ground based game to the mostly aerial game played today has forced designers to change how they build their courses. Often times the new designs are less dimensional and and lacking the interest found in older designs.

 

Secondly, the intent of the course's construction and the timeline of maturation has also impacted design quality. 100 years ago courses were often built in stages and for the first 10 years constantly tweaked by the architect, allowing the initial design to mature into a better course gradually. Today, there is too much publicity and hype around a new course that an architect does not have the luxury of releasing an unfinished course onto the public. The need to get it right the first time is very high and if an architect has to come back to make changed in the first few years, that means they failed to do their job right the first time. Think about the changes made to Chambers Bay or Erin Hills by the USGA, the public did not react well to that work, saying that these courses are too new to need work and clearly if they need fixing they can't be that good to begin with.

 

 

[LICC]

> @hollabachgt said:

> > @LICC said:

> > It doesn’t stand to reason that not one designer in 80 years is as good as the 5 top designers from the 30 year prior period.

>

> I don't think the sentiment is no one from today is as good as the ODG's. But there have been a couple of large industry shifts that have dramatically changed how courses are constructed that has allowed older courses to continue to outshine newer ones.

>

> First off, the equipment and style of play used during the original golden age had a very large positive impact on the design of courses. Over time the movement away from a more ground based game to the mostly aerial game played today has forced designers to change how they build their courses. Often times the new designs are less dimensional and and lacking the interest found in older designs.

>

> Secondly, the intent of the course's construction and the timeline of maturation has also impacted design quality. 100 years ago courses were often built in stages and for the first 10 years constantly tweaked by the architect, allowing the initial design to mature into a better course gradually. Today, there is too much publicity and hype around a new course that an architect does not have the luxury of releasing an unfinished course onto the public. The need to get it right the first time is very high and if an architect has to come back to make changed in the first few years, that means they failed to do their job right the first time. Think about the changes made to Chambers Bay or Erin Hills by the USGA, the public did not react well to that work, saying that these courses are too new to need work and clearly if they need fixing they can't be that good to begin with.

>

>

 

That's a respectable view but it still is basically a nostalgia-based, "things were better in the old days" rationale with a number of conclusory statements. Do you have examples of the greater dimension and interest found in older designs that aren't in newer ones? Granted, from the Trent Jones post-WWII era through the 1970s there was a simplification of course design, but then Pete Dye came around in the late 1960s and we have seen sound design principles and modern technology combine to make great courses. I think some of the old classics are overrated simply due to history and that the best courses of the last 50-60 years are just as good or better, if one forgets the history and just evaluates the courses themselves.