A ruling clarification is needed.

[sui generis]

No player's (or referee's, for that matter) mind is ever as clear as **after** the round.

[Krt22]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @Vespar said:

> > > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

> > >

> > > The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Sadly there are lot's of folks in this world that know absolutely zero about personal responsibility. You should ask him what he should have been scored had corrected his error and holed out. Let's assume his brush back counted as proper stroke, he still hit a ball in motion, picked his ball up without marking it, and then the stroke to finally hole it. I'd say that is a 9, thus he would have been out of first anyway

>

> None of those actions would have counted as strokes. Replace the ball, putt out, and add one penalty stroke. Rule 9.4.

>

>

 

Yeah I can see how one may argue that, his stroke towards the hole however makes it a bit more ambiguous

[DavePelz4]

Let's not lose sight that in the OP it's noted that Player C had issues with what transpired. Wouldn't he have brought it up to the pro or the TD if you hadn't?

[HitEmTrue]

> @Krt22 said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > @Vespar said:

> > > > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

> > > >

> > > > The ramifications of "letting it go" changes the dynamic and pay out of those in contention both on the gross and net side of the club championship....as well as the potential embarrassment of being DQd in front of an audience of his peers in the club house. I brought up our concern of unable to sign a score card accurately & privately with pro in a side room. Prior to the brief meeting I was not 100% certain is was DQ or if the pro would make an exception. It is what it is, the right decision according to the rules of holing out and attesting to the true score on the card- don't take it lightly.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sadly there are lot's of folks in this world that know absolutely zero about personal responsibility. You should ask him what he should have been scored had corrected his error and holed out. Let's assume his brush back counted as proper stroke, he still hit a ball in motion, picked his ball up without marking it, and then the stroke to finally hole it. I'd say that is a 9, thus he would have been out of first anyway

> >

> > None of those actions would have counted as strokes. Replace the ball, putt out, and add one penalty stroke. Rule 9.4.

> >

> >

>

> Yeah I can see how one may argue that, his stroke towards the hole however makes it a bit more ambiguous

 

"while the ball was moving in attempt to put it back." It doesn't matter if it is toward the hole or not. If this is really what he was doing, it isn't a stroke. Now of course this was the OP's interpretation of what he was doing.

 

If he really was making a stroke at the moving ball, I suspect it would be a playing from the wrong place penalty, rather than penalty for making a stroke at a ball that is moving. Because the ball would still need to be replaced back at the original location.

 

 

[antip]

> @"sui generis" said:

> No player's (or referee's, for that matter) mind is ever as clear as **after** the round.

 

And for a while it gets clearer with each beer......

[Augster]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @QEight said:

> > > > > @Vespar said:

> > > > > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

> > > >

> > > > I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

> > >

> > > Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

> >

> > I am honestly a bit taken back that you are actually passing blame to the OP or the other partners in the group. Player A indeed knew he screwed up, essentially admitted it, and then went to ask the other players what they were going to score him in hopes they would let it slide. He knew he made an error and hoped to get away vs taking his penalty and holing out. When he pulled the ball back, the OP states they all said whoa whoa whoa, essentially telling him to hole it out, and he then choose not to.

>

> Unless 'whoa, whoa, whoa' is some local language meaning 'you need to replace your ball and hole out' I believe there was nothing in the original post saying that the three other players had in any way indicated the fourth player what he must do. Not to say that they did not do that either once he asked what is his score on the 1st hole.

>

> I am simply implying that those three should have done something more than 'whoa, whoa, whoa'.

 

Absolutely correct. I’m with you Mr. Bean.

 

 

[2bGood]

Funny that this guy is complaining about the ruling around our club 75% of the guy would think he is massive Jerk for complaining about a clear ruling like this. 20% would be clueless even in a clearcut case like this and 5% (his fellow jerks that don't think the rules apply them) would agree with him.

[Bushwood Country Club]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @"Bushwood Country Club" said:

> > I would not do anything different - you guys did the only thing you could have possibly done. He broke multiple rules. His asking "what did you give me" is kind of shady... as is the fact that he didn't try to replace his ball and hole it out. Major props to your Head Pro, who did his job.

>

> I would have told the guy to go back and finish the hole instead of giving him a score for that hole. So I would certainly do something different.

 

So you would, on the 2nd tee box, AFTER the dude said "what are you giving me", respond with- "hey man, just go back to the first hole, replace your ball, and putt it out", and move along? That's basically enabling someone to game the system... he made a disqualifiable move, and was perfectly willing to ignore it in a tournament. Not happening here...

[Bushwood Country Club]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Vespar said:

> > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......There are people that always wish to blame someone else for their own misfortunes, this is one of them.

> >

> He was 100% in the wrong, and doesn't want to accept it. In effect, he would have preferred for you to let him cheat his way into the money. If he had followed written and verbal instructions, he'd have been fine. If he had known the rules, he could have gone back and putted out instead of moving on and getting the DQ. The only way you could have done anything different was to tell him that at the time, but its really HIS job to follow the rules.

> I'd be interested in seeing him and Player C have a discussion over what the "right" thing to do would have been. After all, A wants to take money from C's pocket by cheating.

>

>

 

THIS

 

[Bushwood Country Club]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @QEight said:

> > > @Vespar said:

> > > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

> >

> > I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

> >

>

> I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

>

> Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

 

That's about the most ridiculous thing I have read in this thread. The cheater did not say "what do I do"? He said "what are you giving me"? Those are as different as self defense and premeditated assault. "Pocketing the ball"??? Seriously? The OP did the only thing he could do. Blaming the person who enforced the rules is the definition of insanity.

[Augster]

> @"Bushwood Country Club" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @"Bushwood Country Club" said:

> > > I would not do anything different - you guys did the only thing you could have possibly done. He broke multiple rules. His asking "what did you give me" is kind of shady... as is the fact that he didn't try to replace his ball and hole it out. Major props to your Head Pro, who did his job.

> >

> > I would have told the guy to go back and finish the hole instead of giving him a score for that hole. So I would certainly do something different.

>

> So you would, on the 2nd tee box, AFTER the dude said "what are you giving me", respond with- "hey man, just go back to the first hole, replace your ball, and putt it out", and move along? That's basically enabling someone to game the system... he made a disqualifiable move, and was perfectly willing to ignore it in a tournament. Not happening here...

 

Yes. That’s what he’s supposed to do. Go back and hole out before he plays a shot at the 2nd hole. That’s exactly what I’d have done and what THEY should have done.

 

I’m actually really surprised this didn’t happen after the shock of seeing an FC pocket his ball instead of putting it out wore off. It’s stroke play. Putt it out.

 

And seriously, who picks up a ball without someone telling them, “That’s good”. Do people really play gimme’s? Where a player concedes the putt to THEMSELVES? Why even go to the course? Why not just concede the eagle from the fairway and move along to the next tee? The group behind them would appreciate it.

 

Does anyone else play actual golf at a golf course? I’m thinking I’m in the minority.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Too much league golf, stablefords, and casual golf in general.

[jobin]

Right. If had been Stableford then simply 'no points' and move on.

But i cannot agree with Sniperbbb if he thinks everyone, all the time, should be playing competitive, heavy duty, rules based golf. I like to move along, have fun, hit some good/bad shots, get in before the rain and enjoy the company of my friends. Since we are not into money games, i don't give a darn what anyone else does.

[Brass_Bullseye]

The guy isn’t mad about anything other than cheating and getting dq’d for it, and now he needs someone to blame. Had he done exactly what he was told to do before the round started and holed out he’d have won the tournament. Unfortunately he put it in his pocket and suffered the consequences. He’s the one that should have darn near snapped his pelvis sprinting to the Pro for a ruling. He didn’t.

[Mr. Bean]

> @"Bushwood Country Club" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @QEight said:

> > > > @Vespar said:

> > > > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

> > >

> > > I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

> > >

> >

> > I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

> >

> > Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

>

> That's about the most ridiculous thing I have read in this thread. The cheater did not say "what do I do"? He said "what are you giving me"? Those are as different as self defense and premeditated assault. "Pocketing the ball"??? Seriously? The OP did the only thing he could do. Blaming the person who enforced the rules is the definition of insanity.

 

So, you are saying here that there was nothing else the OP could have done? Are you serious?

[SNIPERBBB]

> @jobin said:

> Right. If had been Stableford then simply 'no points' and move on.

> But i cannot agree with Sniperbbb if he thinks everyone, all the time, should be playing competitive, heavy duty, rules based golf. I like to move along, have fun, hit some good/bad shots, get in before the rain and enjoy the company of my friends. Since we are not into money games, i don't give a darn what anyone else does.

 

That's fine. Just saying that if that's all you play you develop bad habits for when you do play in serious competitions. It's a lot easier to turn off playing by the rules and holing out everything than it is to going from always rolling the ball, loose with drops, taking gummies to playing strict golf.

[davep043]

> @"Bushwood Country Club" said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > @QEight said:

> > > > @Vespar said:

> > > > Sadly, What I am now finding out, according to player A I'm the bad guy for bringing it up to the pro. Player A needs to get over it and be more accountable for his error. The fact he's keeping the conversation going with others, and its somehow my fault that he got screwed.......

> > >

> > > I bet everybody who know the rules know that A did the cockup himself.

> > >

> >

> > I guess what eats him the most (apart from being stupid...) is that he was not told how he should have proceeded but he was let to believe there was nothing more to it. The next thing he knows he was DQ'd and felt like he had been stabbed in the back. I sure can understand that. Indeed it was his own fault totally but the way the three others acted was not what I would call fair. After all, at least the OP knew exactly that one needs to hole out but he did not stand up.

> >

> > Not a very pleasant case, IMO.

>

> That's about the most ridiculous thing I have read in this thread. The cheater did not say "what do I do"? He said "what are you giving me"? Those are as different as self defense and premeditated assault. "Pocketing the ball"??? Seriously? The OP did the only thing he could do. Blaming the person who enforced the rules is the definition of insanity.

 

I'm with Mr. Bean on this one. Presumably every member of that group knew that they were required to hole out on every hole. Apparently none of them told player A that he needed to go back and hole out. In my mind, each of the other players was wrong, they knowingly allowed player A to proceed without correcting his mistake. I can accept that they were all fairly shocked, but in hindsight they SHOULD have told him to go back and putt out. This is no different than watching someone tee a ball in front of the markers, let him hit, and then require him to take the penalty.

None of that makes player A any less responsible for his own actions, he was the primary screw-up. But the other guys, apparently all friends, didn't help the situation. And if this sounds like I'm contradicting my earlier posts, I probably am. Sometimes additional thought results in a revision of opinions.

[Vespar]

> @Dpavs said:

> I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

>

> **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

>

 

Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

 

**Other facts some not included earlier:**

1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

 

Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

[Sawgrass]

I'm curious as to what lesson you learned.

 

 

[cval]

> @Vespar said:

> > @Dpavs said:

> > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> >

> > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> >

>

> Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

>

> **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

>

> Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

 

This was handled so poorly. If you are friends with this person and it was festering through the entire round why would you have not said something to player A prior to going to the pro. Hey buddy what you did on one we don't think is correct we are going to tell the pro and let him decide. Technically you are correct as a friend pretty piss poor.

I believe you should go to player A apologize for not telling him directly your concern and why. Then it is on him but would be the right thing to do IMHO.

[QEight]

> @Brass_Bullseye said:

> The guy isn’t mad about anything other than cheating and getting dq’d for it, and now he needs someone to blame. Had he done exactly what he was told to do before the round started and holed out he’d have won the tournament. Unfortunately he put it in his pocket and suffered the consequences. He’s the one that should have darn near snapped his pelvis sprinting to the Pro for a ruling. He didn’t.

 

I wonder why are you calling this cheating, as it seems like A would have been "happy" to replace the ball and putt out with one penalty. Especially if someone had reminded him that by doing so he would be saved from DQ. I would say this was act of hot-headed foolishness but not really cheating. I am still quite astonished, that none of the group said anything to this guy.

 

Rules incidents are much easier to solve before they escalate beyond point of no return. I had a rules incident on the first hole of tournament few years ago, when a FC asked if the dropping spot was fine for a water hazard drop. I told that he should drop within 2 CL or back on line. Neither of this were satisfied by his location. He said "Fine, if that is the way we are playing". I was afraid that the rest of the round was going to be frozen, but I guess he realized that it was him being in wrong.

[QEight]

> @Vespar said:

> 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

 

Number 5 does not seem like a good reason to DQ anyone...

Number 6, you should have said that A can head direct to club house unless he holes out, as he will not get a score. As it seems like you knew the rules anyway, so no need to bother TD or committee.

[HatsForBats]

> @Vespar said:

> > @Dpavs said:

> > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> >

> > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> >

>

> Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

>

> **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

>

> Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

 

Did you play with him the first day or was he in a different group? I have to wonder if there is a possibility he was in a group that did give some gimmies even though they were 1000% not supposed to. Having some conversations with a few of our players I was amazed at what they would consider allowing to happen even in the club championship. I am guessing your guy may still feel like he didn't do anything that deserves a penalty.

 

I see you are getting some flack here but I don't think any of us know how we would react in the moment of a similar situation. With a player that wasn't a friend it would seem to be easier as I don't think I would be as shocked or angered about them putting me into a moral dilemma. If this had happened with the 2 **friends** I was playing with in this years club championship I am not sure how I would have reacted and am not confident I would react quickly enough to recover before teeing off on the second hole. It would be quite shocking to me and a million thoughts would be going through my mind given the moral dilemma I was just put in by a friend. I am 100% confident I would eventually get to the same place as you did I just don't know how quickly I would have gotten there. The most amazing part to me is he did it again on hole 2?

 

Hopefully when you get get some time between the incident it can be discussed without a bunch of hard feelings on either parties part.

[cval]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Vespar said:

> > > @Dpavs said:

> > > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> > >

> > > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> > >

> >

> > Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

> >

> > **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> > 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> > 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> > 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> > 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> > 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> > 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> > 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> > 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> > We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> > I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> > 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

> >

> > Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

>

> Did you play with him the first day or was he in a different group? I have to wonder if there is a possibility he was in a group that did give some gimmies even though they were 1000% not supposed to. Having some conversations with a few of our players I was amazed at what they would consider allowing to happen even in the club championship. I am guessing your guy may still feel like he didn't do anything that deserves a penalty.

>

> I see you are getting some flack here but I don't think any of us know how we would react in the moment of a similar situation. With a player that wasn't a friend it would seem to be easier as I don't think I would be as shocked or angered about them putting me into a moral dilemma. If this had happened with the 2 **friends** I was playing with in this years club championship I am not sure how I would have reacted and am not confident I would react quickly enough to recover before teeing off on the second hole. It would be quite shocking to me and a million thoughts would be going through my mind given the moral dilemma I was just put in by a friend. I am 100% confident I would eventually get to the same place as you did I just don't know how quickly I would have gotten there. The most amazing part to me is he did it again on hole 2?

>

> Hopefully when you get get some time between the incident it can be discussed without a bunch of hard feelings on either parties part.

 

Please clarify if he holed out on the 2nd hole or not.

[Augster]

Holing out on 2 is irrelevant. After he teed on 2 without correcting his error, he was DQ and just playing the round for fun. And maybe skins.

[Vespar]

> @cval said:

> > @Vespar said:

> > > @Dpavs said:

> > > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> > >

> > > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> > >

> >

> > Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

> >

> > **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> > 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> > 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> > 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> > 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> > 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> > 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> > 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> > 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> > We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> > I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> > 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

> >

> > Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

>

> This was handled so poorly. If you are friends with this person and it was festering through the entire round why would you have not said something to player A prior to going to the pro. Hey buddy what you did on one we don't think is correct we are going to tell the pro and let him decide. Technically you are correct as a friend pretty **** poor.

> I believe you should go to player A apologize for not telling him directly your concern and why. Then it is on him but would be the right thing to do IMHO.

 

We did exactly that prior to signing the card and turning in the card. Much was heartfelt apologies. I sleep fine at night, he on the other hand has yet ( including yesterday) said "I F'd up"

[Vespar]

> @cval said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @Vespar said:

> > > > @Dpavs said:

> > > > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > > > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> > > >

> > > > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> > > >

> > >

> > > Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

> > >

> > > **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> > > 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> > > 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> > > 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> > > 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> > > 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> > > 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> > > 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> > > 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> > > We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> > > I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> > > 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

> > >

> > > Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

> >

> > Did you play with him the first day or was he in a different group? I have to wonder if there is a possibility he was in a group that did give some gimmies even though they were 1000% not supposed to. Having some conversations with a few of our players I was amazed at what they would consider allowing to happen even in the club championship. I am guessing your guy may still feel like he didn't do anything that deserves a penalty.

> >

> > I see you are getting some flack here but I don't think any of us know how we would react in the moment of a similar situation. With a player that wasn't a friend it would seem to be easier as I don't think I would be as shocked or angered about them putting me into a moral dilemma. If this had happened with the 2 **friends** I was playing with in this years club championship I am not sure how I would have reacted and am not confident I would react quickly enough to recover before teeing off on the second hole. It would be quite shocking to me and a million thoughts would be going through my mind given the moral dilemma I was just put in by a friend. I am 100% confident I would eventually get to the same place as you did I just don't know how quickly I would have gotten there. The most amazing part to me is he did it again on hole 2?

> >

> > Hopefully when you get get some time between the incident it can be discussed without a bunch of hard feelings on either parties part.

>

> Please clarify if he holed out on the 2nd hole or not.

 

The issue of NOT holing out was on the 1st hole, we started our round on hole #1, we were given verbal hole out everything instructions on #1 tee box.

[Vespar]

Straight out of the rule book regarding this specific debacle….Looks as though we ( player B, C and D) did the right thing. The TD was not immediately available, including by phone.

 

Looks as though we handled it perfectly:

We can not make an exception to the rules

We need to protect the field

We need to turn in the score card ahead of signing it.

 

c. Rules Issues in Stroke Play

No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time to help with a Rules issue you have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement you may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

You should raise any Rules issues with the Committee before returning your scorecard.

You Should Protect Other Players in the Competition. If you know or believe that another player has breached the Rules and does not recognize or is ignoring this, you should tell that player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. You should do this promptly, and certainly before the player returns his or her scorecard. Your failure to do so could be serious misconduct resulting in disqualification

 

[cval]

> @Vespar said:

> > @cval said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @Vespar said:

> > > > > @Dpavs said:

> > > > > I'm not saying anything wrong was done but here's where I can see it get's dicey from Player A's point of view....

> > > > > "Shocked we walk to the next tee. Player A on the tee asks what are you guys giving me? Player B is Im not sure, I found the question strange he should be giving us his score not the otherway around. Player C says 7 and player D says 5."

> > > > >

> > > > > **The answer at that point is\should have been we cannot give you a score because you did not hole out. **

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Absolutely in hind site that should have been said, 100% agreed. I recently spoke with player B..my cart mate and technically he was to record the score of player A on the individual card. I did not hear it exactly I likely may have preparing to tee off on hole #2. According to Player B he returned the answer to "what are you going to give me?" he answered to player A with " what do you want me to write down"

> > > >

> > > > **Other facts some not included earlier:**

> > > > 1) Myself and player B were bothered by what happened and anytime we waited, being in the same cart together talked about it, It was a very bad distraction. Its of no coincident that we shot higher than usual scores.

> > > > 2) This was on hole #1 where it occurred. we started on hole #1

> > > > 3) We were instructed verbally on the 1st tee. Hole everything out no gimmies, play the ball down, etc

> > > > 4) This was the 2nd day of the tourney.

> > > > 5) We had a group waiting to hit their 140 yard 2nd shots onto our green.

> > > > 6)The whoa whoa was a direct shocked answer from 2 of us to his action and it may or may not have been followed up with "You need to hole everything out". The 3rd player had already turned to head off the green- but was aware what had occurred.

> > > > 7) Player A is aloof in nature, has been golfing for 30 plus years, and does play an average amount of local club tourneys.

> > > > 8) I would also say the all of us were not thinking clearly enough to think ahead enough of a DQ at the time.

> > > > We decided by the 12-13th hole that the TD should decide the outcome of what had transpired.

> > > > I was asked yesterday by a couple of the guys, if I would have signed the card or informed the TD today..I answered Yes & for any violation not just this one.

> > > > 8) Lastly even till now Player A has not said "I fLIcked up." ...which I feel will put closure to it. He is still banged up over the incident and results of being DQd. He hasn't spoken to me or player B, nor attempted to. No apology or acknowledgement to anyone that he was remorseful for putting us in a compromising position during our game. cold shoulder, head down etc. Player B and I are not planning to further discuss unless the the conversation begins from him I effed up.

> > > >

> > > > Personally I'm over this, lesson learned as far as Im concerned. I'm in fall golf mode

> > >

> > > Did you play with him the first day or was he in a different group? I have to wonder if there is a possibility he was in a group that did give some gimmies even though they were 1000% not supposed to. Having some conversations with a few of our players I was amazed at what they would consider allowing to happen even in the club championship. I am guessing your guy may still feel like he didn't do anything that deserves a penalty.

> > >

> > > I see you are getting some flack here but I don't think any of us know how we would react in the moment of a similar situation. With a player that wasn't a friend it would seem to be easier as I don't think I would be as shocked or angered about them putting me into a moral dilemma. If this had happened with the 2 **friends** I was playing with in this years club championship I am not sure how I would have reacted and am not confident I would react quickly enough to recover before teeing off on the second hole. It would be quite shocking to me and a million thoughts would be going through my mind given the moral dilemma I was just put in by a friend. I am 100% confident I would eventually get to the same place as you did I just don't know how quickly I would have gotten there. The most amazing part to me is he did it again on hole 2?

> > >

> > > Hopefully when you get get some time between the incident it can be discussed without a bunch of hard feelings on either parties part.

> >

> > Please clarify if he holed out on the 2nd hole or not.

>

> The issue of NOT holing out was on the 1st hole, we started our round on hole #1, we were given verbal hole out everything instructions on #1 tee box.

 

Nobody, at least I am not, is arguing that he did not hole out therefore DQ This is not a PGA tour event or anybody'd source of income. My point is a friend you should have said something before you went to the pro. My point in asking if he did the same on hole number 2 after the incident on one it changes the narrative a bit. Either way 1. you have told him he needed to hole out 2. you should have told him you were going to the pro.

 

He has a right to be upset for going behind his back. He has nobody to blame but himself for being DQd.

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Vespar said:

> Straight out of the rule book regarding this specific debacle….Looks as though we ( player B, C and D) did the right thing. The TD was not immediately available, including by phone.

 

While I still struggle to understand where in the Rules you found that you did the right thing I dare to suggest that there was an alternative way of acting.

 

First, you all knew one has to hole out. You did nothing to highlight that to player A. I wonder why.

 

Second, in stroke play it is always possible to play another ball. So you could have asked player A to replace his ball and play another ball, just in case.

 

Third, you could have warned player A that he just might have done a costly mistake not holing out. This IMO should have been done at the very latest when he asked you what is his score for the hole. You all knew there was no score as he did not hole out.

 

As Sawgrass I would also like to hear what you have personally learned out of this case as your latest post suggests you would do the same thing all over again next time.