Playing for Bogey on a Tough Par 4

[smashdn]

> @KyGolf said:

> Mineral Mounds?

 

Yep. Hate that hole.

 

[Myherobobhope]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @Enduro59 said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > Obviously pros do this on the 72nd hole with the lead. I've also heard of guys "laying up" for their second shot on a very long par 4 if their drive doesn't give them a good chance of getting it on in 2 and there are hazards around the green.

> > >

> > > However, does anyone basically play for bogey off the tee?

> > >

> > > There is one par 4 where I play that is tough. Off the tee there is a) OB all the way down the left side, b) creek / waste area that cuts across the fairway so can't hit driver, and c) pond on the right side of the fairway. The hole also narrows somewhat the farther down towards the creek/waste area you go.

> > >

> > > The last five rounds I've hit 5-iron / 5-iron / flick sand wedge and got a bogey each time. When playing it "normal" I've made pars and an odd birdie but also a lot of doubles and triples.

> > >

> > > Wondering if anyone has found the conservative strategy to be more successful and stuck with it for an extended period of time? I usually don't take an "avoid looking dumb/bad shot" strategy at all times. However, here the biggest problem is off the tee, and the advantage of hitting a 5-iron is that I can't reach the pond and the OB is much more difficult to hit into on the 5-iron distance/line.

> > >

> > > Obviously, I can play both ways 10-20 times in a row and see what wins out (I don't have the historical data from my prior rounds hole by hole). I may also try hitting two 7-woods, which could probably get me on the green some of the time (I need to see what this is like off the tee though). I also realize the strategy here may vary by skill level...

> >

> > I stumbled across a guy from South Africa on YouTube videos called The golf sidekick. He thinks it's a good idea for anyone with handicaps not in the single digits to do what you are asking about. Sometimes he recommends it for all golfers on certain holes. Mostly he stresses putting your 2nd shot in a safe place, avoiding all trouble. Also I guess now that I think of it he stresses hitting a club off the tee that no matter how short it is will not get you in trouble. This summer after buying into his approach 100% I have completely eliminated big numbers from my scorecard. (Fewer penalty strokes and punch-outs) Might be worth checking out the sidekick on YouTube just for grins.

> I get what he's saying but not sure if I want to go that far (I'm high single digits if that makes a difference, not that I consider that really "good" anyways). Stroke costing penalties are the score killer. But absent the hazard that narrows your landing area, I don't think it's a good strategy for all. Others have said in the past you could always hit a PW off every tee to avoid trouble but it probably won't do any good for your scorecard in the long-run.

>

> The other difficult thing about this hole is if I bail on the tee shot and hit it into the pond (better than OB) it is quite difficult to get the third shot on the green. One, I am still a ways back, and two, there are some trees that block me out and the shot requires a large fade (need to start the ball at a hazard left of the green, which isn't great either). So basically if you don't get the ball in the fairway off the tee, there's a good chance 6+ is the most likely score.

 

I'm a 5 handicap and actively working on my game... I have been working on improving my mental game and removing dumb mistakes from my scorecard. I am also always trying to shoot the lowest score I can on every hole.

 

I hit driver unless driver is going to carry through the fairway (And then sometimes I still hit driver and try to get it to turn) or if there is trouble I can't hit over.

 

I think the goal off the tee on a par 4 or 5 should be to advance the ball as far forward as possible. Hitting driver OB doesn't advance the ball forward.

 

I also think that if you are playing one course a ton, it makes sense to build your set around the course. I currently need a 2 wood that I can hit 260 yards and have it stop. That's going to be my next purchase. Maybe a TM original one, maybe something different...

 

Honestly, the biggest improvement to my game, and the thing I have seen people struggle with the most is getting off the tee. Practice with your driver and get to the point where you are confident with your swing and are willing to hit it on tight par 4s. It will lower your score!

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Myherobobhope said:

> I hit driver unless driver is going to carry through the fairway (And then sometimes I still hit driver and try to get it to turn) or if there is trouble I can't hit over.

Agree with everything you said. But the hole I am discussing is exactly constrained by the points you list above. It has nothing to do with hitting driver straighter.

[Z1ggy16]

Bird's eye of the #1 HC at the course I walk most weeks:

 

 

Pretty daunting tee shot with what is actually an extremely small landing area if you want a shot at birdie. Anything left, even in the fairway leaves you with a very hard shot you need to bend around a tree from over 150 yards away, and anything you lay back with leaves you with a mid iron to an uphill green, with no room to miss long, with the only bail out pin high to the right. Can't be short because the green is about 10 feet higher than the fairway so you get a funky little chip.

 

If you think you've got cajones, then enjoy trying to carry driver ~290 to make the 2nd fairway, but you can't miss left or right and if you hit a low spin bomb, the fairway runs out and there's another tiny little creek to eat up your ball.

 

Best play from the tips is to hit something up the right side about 220-230 then try to stick one close from 140-160. Gotta avoid going left at all costs because you'll likely have to lay up to the 2nd fairway. Not an easy hole for a handicap golfer as I don't imagine even the best low caps have a 290 carry right down broadway in them. I imagine most pro's would just try to hit a bomber fade to the 2nd fairway and have an easy pitch on but us mere mortals will likely be making bogey here.

 

 

[Mike_C]

We have what should be an easy par 5 on my home course that eats my lunch. Our 16th hole is only 483 from the back tee, downhill tee shot, but sort of tight with trees on each side. The pros probably would average under 4 on the hole, not even a "long" par 4 for them anymore. But there is something about the tee shot for me where I just can't hit it, I never feel comfortable with my aim off the tee with a driver.

 

The prevailing wind is from the left and in your face, OB right and left, not super, super close but always in play. The shot for me is to hit a high fade over the trees on the left and let the wind take it back to the fairway, or even straight down the left rough, but one out of 3 times I try this I come over the top, and 20-30 yards left of that line if you don't hit the trees it is OB. If you hold on and don't release and hit a block fade, the wind takes it, it hits some hills in the right rough and will probably a good chance to go OB. Slice it much at all and it is OB for sure with the wind..... Now they have also replaced two bunkers green side with a pond, so going for it in 2 is more of a risk also.

 

Yes, I have made many eagles on this hole (when the fairway dries out, it can be as little as a 7 or 8 iron in to the green (IF I hit the fairway) but normally about a 4-6 iron in, but to be honest, I probably make more double bogies than eagles for sure. I probably hit at least 1 out of 10 tee shots OB with a driver (even if I have hit every fairway coming in to the 16th), probably at least 1 in 3 in the trees left or right. In our club championship last weekend I just gave up, hit a hybrid off the tee out about 200ish, then a punch 5 iron down to about 100 yards then SW/GW in. Played it in 5-5-4 with birdie putts from 10, 12 and 4 feet, could have birdied it all three days. Probably should always play it like that.

 

[Pepperturbo]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > You don't mention yardages just club choices. It's hard to put your dilemma into perspective.

> > > I thought if I mentioned the yardages the responses would be greatly influenced by how far someone hits the ball. The hole is only ~400 yards. The problem is the creek/hazard area starts at about 230 so I can't hit a driver (can reach but have no hope to carry it at 300 yards). The landing area also gets narrower between the OB left and pond right from ~190 to ~230 off the tee (where the creek starts).

> > >

> > > If you are a big hitter, this hole isn't hard. Either fly everything or it's probably like a 5-iron and a 9-iron on. But just change the yardages for them and the strategy question is the same.

> > >

> > > As you and others have said, I'd agree there's no reason to lay up on just a long, hard par 4 in the absence of stroke costing penalty hazards/OB.

> > >

> > > If I was really accurate, I could hit a 4W and a 5-iron on. Maybe I can hit two 7Ws on although I am pretty sure this brings the penalties into play off the tee. Two 5-irons and a flick sand wedge means the tee shot is quite safe but there is virtually no chance to reach the green.

> >

> > Most people on Golfwrx are not 300yd hitters, except in their imagination and a large portion more than likely miss a 40 yard wide narrow fairway. LOL. Club choice isn't as important (most are jacked) as yardage and to cover, then club choice.

> >

> > Am I understanding correctly, you hit 5 iron short of 230?

> >

> > Nope, I am not a big hitter more average but long for my age group. I hit all my clubs pretty straight too. So a 400-yard hole like you describe would be 2 iron 215+ yards in the middle, then 3-5i in.

> I guess we have a different perspective about club choice. To me, there's nothing to talk about on a wide-open 400 yard par 4. I'm going to hit driver and some type of mid-iron. The challenge here the that the creek limits driver and there are hazards both left and right the farther down you go.

>

> Yes, I hit my 5-iron less than 230 yards. I've mentioned the hole is 400 yards, and that maybe two 7 woods can get me to the green (~200 yards each). The 5-iron goes less than 200 yards (180 or so), and lands in an area where a) I can't reach the pond and b) it is harder to reach the OB on the line that I am taking (not impossible if you really pulled one but much harder than if I hit a 4-wood). If I was extremely accurate like you, I would do something like 4-wood and then 5-iron (+/- a club) on the green.

>

> I appreciate your reply but it is actually similar to the distance issue I was trying to avoid. The question is basically do you take getting on the green in two out of the equation in the attempt to avoid penalty shots. Your answer is basically "I hit it so straight the penalty spots don't apply to me." Which is great, I wish I could play that way but it doesn't really address the fundamental question. It's essentially the same as if a big hitter simply said "I'd punch a 5-iron just short of the creek and then chip a 9-iron on the green. What's so hard?"

 

It's hard to answer your question in the manner it's posed, as I've never thought that way. But if my game was like yours, the answer would be maybe "yes". Penalty shots from a tee box are costly, as it's stroke and distance +. Hit whatever club you can hit as far as possible trusting you can hit it relatively straight and chose the next club for the same reason. However, taking GIR out of question from the tee pressures the short game to save strokes. Stroke and distance might not cost as much if a slew of strokes are likely to be spent around the green trying to get the ball in the hole.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > You don't mention yardages just club choices. It's hard to put your dilemma into perspective.

> > > > I thought if I mentioned the yardages the responses would be greatly influenced by how far someone hits the ball. The hole is only ~400 yards. The problem is the creek/hazard area starts at about 230 so I can't hit a driver (can reach but have no hope to carry it at 300 yards). The landing area also gets narrower between the OB left and pond right from ~190 to ~230 off the tee (where the creek starts).

> > > >

> > > > If you are a big hitter, this hole isn't hard. Either fly everything or it's probably like a 5-iron and a 9-iron on. But just change the yardages for them and the strategy question is the same.

> > > >

> > > > As you and others have said, I'd agree there's no reason to lay up on just a long, hard par 4 in the absence of stroke costing penalty hazards/OB.

> > > >

> > > > If I was really accurate, I could hit a 4W and a 5-iron on. Maybe I can hit two 7Ws on although I am pretty sure this brings the penalties into play off the tee. Two 5-irons and a flick sand wedge means the tee shot is quite safe but there is virtually no chance to reach the green.

> > >

> > > Most people on Golfwrx are not 300yd hitters, except in their imagination and a large portion more than likely miss a 40 yard wide narrow fairway. LOL. Club choice isn't as important (most are jacked) as yardage and to cover, then club choice.

> > >

> > > Am I understanding correctly, you hit 5 iron short of 230?

> > >

> > > Nope, I am not a big hitter more average but long for my age group. I hit all my clubs pretty straight too. So a 400-yard hole like you describe would be 2 iron 215+ yards in the middle, then 3-5i in.

> > I guess we have a different perspective about club choice. To me, there's nothing to talk about on a wide-open 400 yard par 4. I'm going to hit driver and some type of mid-iron. The challenge here the that the creek limits driver and there are hazards both left and right the farther down you go.

> >

> > Yes, I hit my 5-iron less than 230 yards. I've mentioned the hole is 400 yards, and that maybe two 7 woods can get me to the green (~200 yards each). The 5-iron goes less than 200 yards (180 or so), and lands in an area where a) I can't reach the pond and b) it is harder to reach the OB on the line that I am taking (not impossible if you really pulled one but much harder than if I hit a 4-wood). If I was extremely accurate like you, I would do something like 4-wood and then 5-iron (+/- a club) on the green.

> >

> > I appreciate your reply but it is actually similar to the distance issue I was trying to avoid. The question is basically do you take getting on the green in two out of the equation in the attempt to avoid penalty shots. Your answer is basically "I hit it so straight the penalty spots don't apply to me." Which is great, I wish I could play that way but it doesn't really address the fundamental question. It's essentially the same as if a big hitter simply said "I'd punch a 5-iron just short of the creek and then chip a 9-iron on the green. What's so hard?"

>

> It's hard to answer your question in the manner it's posed, as I've never thought that way. But if my game was like yours, the answer would be maybe "yes". Penalty shots from a tee box are costly, as it's stroke and distance +. Hit whatever club you can hit as far as possible trusting you can hit it relatively straight and chose the next club for the same reason. However, taking GIR out of question from the tee pressures the short game to save strokes. Stroke and distance might not cost as much if a slew of strokes are likely to be spent around the green trying to get the ball in the hole.

Yeah, I understand the perspective on this situation will vary a lot based on skill and one's strengths/weaknesses. I think part of the issue here is OB is obviously very costly and the pond on the other side is most likely a double. There are other holes where you can hit one in a hazard on both sides and I usually just hit driver. Granted, those holes aren't as tight as this one but I think the big difference is on those after dropping you still have a reasonable shot at a bogey.

 

So far I've managed 1 par and 6 bogeys with this strategy. I could have easily made 1 or 2 doubles though as well, so my guess is that the average will float around 5 (+/- a little bit each way).

 

I did also hit a couple of practice shots with the 7W off the tee. I'll probably try it for a few rounds after I have a good sample with the current strategy. My initial reaction is I'm not sure it's worth it, as a) the tee shot is tighter due to the pond on the right and b) even if you get the tee shot in play my odds of hitting the green from 200 aren't very high (understanding that up and down from greenside is easier than from 50 yards).

 

Will see how it goes. This is a little bit of a psychological thing but just taking 5 and avoiding the big number also keeps the round flowing better. Probably shouldn't be that way but it seems to be the case.

[nix]

There is a par 3 that I play regularly in this manner. I would not call it "playing for bogey" but rather understanding that the probabilities of shooting a lower score come not from going for the green in regulation but for attempting to 1 putt.

 

I play a 220+ yd par 3 that has trouble left, right and long. However it's got a fairway run-up to the green. Nearly everyone tries to hit the green in 1 and very few do. Almost everyone is happy to get a 4 on the hole. I take a shorter club and hit it in the fairway and hope it runs close or even on the green. Then I try and get up and down for par.

[howellhandmade]

> @nix said:

> There is a par 3 that I play regularly in this manner. I would not call it "playing for bogey" but rather understanding that the probabilities of shooting a lower score come not from going for the green in regulation but for attempting to 1 putt.

>

> I play a 220+ yd par 3 that has trouble left, right and long. However it's got a fairway run-up to the green. Nearly everyone tries to hit the green in 1 and very few do. Almost everyone is happy to get a 4 on the hole. I take a shorter club and hit it in the fairway and hope it runs close or even on the green. Then I try and get up and down for par.

 

I was going to describe exactly this sort of par 3 at a course I play every Saturday. Except for the opening in the front, a smallish green is surrounded by a nasty bunker which is surrounded by lost-ball native area. It takes a high 210-220y uphill shot to hold the green, which is at the highest point on the course, so any wind will complicate things. The sensible play is to the broad apron in front, where the worst shot imaginable will simply leave a longer pitch, rather than to the green, where even a good shot is likely to wind up in a bunker filled with construction aggregate.