Most Over Rated Course on the Major Rotation

[JD3]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > (Quote)

> > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

>

> Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

>

 

Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes

[aabcuue]

> @mwmgolfx said:

> I was a member of Chambers for several years. USGA never did understand Fescue greens and the fact that Chambers drains at a phenomenal pace. They really really dried it out and basically caused the loss of the greens.

USGA unfortunately hasn't always listened the local superintendent and greenskeeper. Love them as people as they're local but the tournaments have been spotty on course/ green setup.

 

> Played St. Andrews and its one of those courses that you have to understand. Weather is major factor on course. More so than a lot of other courses. Can play easy or super super hard, depending upon wind. And that's true with most good links courses.

Weather is always the wild card when your planning course setup years in advance.

 

> Understand that what makes a good major course today is totally different than 20-50 years ago and way more so than 70 years ago. Think about all the tents, spectator access for way more spectators, sponsors, TV needs for broadcasting. Driving ranges (winged foot has to shut down its second course to be used for driving range. Same for Baltustrol and Pinehurst #2 has another course shut down for larger range. Need for ways to handle how much further the players hit the ball today and how to control or handle that increased distance - add yardage, rough, narrow the fairways, soften the fairways are all ways that can be used. It really is a different game today from the 60's and 70s. Bunkers different, fairways way way harder, players carry 3-5 wedges now, 2 used to be max. And that doesn't even account for the increased driving distances.

Setup for a major unless a course very recently hosted takes up to 10yrs logistically to get everything done & in place. Ideally every course is tweaked and lengthened between majors. There are always "fixes/ improvements needed" and keeping up w/ continued pro distance growth.

 

> Lots of courses are perhaps better pure architecturally than some currently used but if they can't support the vastly increased infostructure, then they can't host a major. And lots of people forget about all the infostructure needs. Its way way more than most people realize.

Notice many course used have 2nd course and/or lots of extra unused land for the infrastructure. 99% of courses don't have everything needed. Contracts with other large sites nearby are used for missing infrastructure esp. if large parking lot/ space -schools, warehouses, closed stores, etc.

 

> This is now an overwhelming and major issue for the USGA and PGA now, way more than just the quality of the course. Plus many top courses don't want the course shut down for the amount of time hosting a major would require. Wing Foote just recently re-accepted a major but for many years refused another because the members didn't want the disruption. So many courses get chosen not necessarily because they are super quality but are much better in total inforstructure in the area.

Not only majors. PGA tour usually wants a course to close down for 8weeks during the summer including many club facilities that people don't think would be affected -pool, tennis courts, etc. Don't forget all time to fix after the tournament.

 

> And as I said, infostructure nowadays is a much bigger issue than years ago and causes many fine and perhaps better overall courses to be bypassed (and i'm not including those courses that just flat out refuse to host one (Pine Valley is perhaps the best example). Can anyone say that Pine Valley wouldn't be an excellent course for a major? But the chances that it will are so small as to be basically non-existant.

Its now short lengthwise (maynot be able to extend to 7+k), doesn't have tent space, 1 access road for everything bottleneck (need many), pretty far from highways, limited sources for rl large parking lots, etc.

These are only the major glaring issues.

 

Fixing all would be at least 10yr project at quickest. Meanwhile, you also need buy in from local, regional and state levels of law enforcement and politicos. Post 9-11 Homeland Security, FBI et. al. are also partners and always on-site. Lots of behind the scenes deals and contracts are always made to make any tournament occur.

[aabcuue]

> @JD3 said:

> I think "Tiger-proofing" by making it longer was a flawed concept. Granted I can see why they freaked out after he won by 12 shots, hit PW into Par 5 #15, and LW into #18. But by simply lengthening it all they did was squeeze out the shorter hitter that much more. If they really wanted to reduce the importance of length they could make fairways run out into hazards/deep rough less than 300 hundred off the tee ... e.g.. how they setup the par 5 at Valderrama to in the Ryder Cup to help offset the longer hitting US team. But lets face it, in the modern-era people want to see power, and IMO those kind of changes make less entertaining.

Not all people including the groups that setup tournaments.

 

> Bottom line: power is more important than ever in professional golf, but it was important in the past too, and it doesn't completely exclude average length hitters from having a chance today.

This is why courses by Tilly will always be in the regular rotation. Tilly would regularily stop a fairway esp. on a par5 @set distance out sometimes w/ a challenge to a narrower neck for 20yds. Pros aren't driving carries over bunkering systems and rough that goes to 350+yds carry yet.

This forces the field to play long 2nd shot or 3rd shot into the green no Drive and wedge on these holes.

Add in heavy bunkering systems that really narrow fairways @set distances. This forces a huge risk/reward on many par4s. Grow the rough and the challenge grows.

There are many ways to counter the continuous pro distance growth. Many examples exist thanks to past architect designs.

[aabcuue]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @buckeye440 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Whistling straights.

> > Why do you think that? I love that course. It looks like a true links course. It a beauty on the shores of Lake Michigan (Midwest represent!). It could definitely play tougher though but I think a lot of courses fail at that lately.

>

> Lol. You won’t like this. But. Any course designed to have the gallery stand and sit inside bunkers that are in play is automatically dead to my eyes. A horrible design feature that’s unfit for a major championship that includes live viewers.

> Make them native areas and I say who cares. But as is. It’s a joke of a venue.

 

When the people who work there can't count the number of bunkers or define what is and isn't a bunker then its a joke. Even the local rule wasn't that clear.

 

 

[aabcuue]

> @BottleCap said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @BottleCap said:

> Of course I haven't played all the courses that have hosted majors, but i've played a bunch including Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Olympic Club, Whistling Straits, Pebble Beach, Erin Hills, Pinehurst, Torrey Pines, and Bethpage within the last 4 years. After playing those, I feel there are much tougher courses out there than a lot of those. I was especially surprised with Shinnecock, it plays nothing like it's reputation.

What did you think of Shinny?

 

Wind is always a factor there. During 2018 US Open, the wind changed direction up to 8x/day. There was also big difference in wind strength depending on time of day and the rain front.

 

The 2nd shot into many raised, multi-tier and sometimes blind greens were ultimate test. Unfortunately daily the USGA demanded that the pros play most greens and sometime fairways only 1 way to score. Method changed every day.

 

Doubt you played in the same US Open rough depth so that was/is huge factor in playability. Many pros benfited from 1 or both sides of rough being trambled down. Rough was bad but not as bad @Bethpage 2009 rough. During the week, still saw plenty of buried lies, forcing everyone to pitch out and take the medicine. It made ball spotting sometimes nearly impossible as some tees couldn't be seen from the landing zone.

[Hankshank]

> @LICC said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > > @smashdn said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > Pebble Beach.

> > > > >

> > > > > You should not pull a course that hosts an annual PGA Tour Tournament (ATT Pebble Beach Pro-Am) and make it into a major venue.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > If it is a spectacular course, then why not?

> > >

> > > Just my opinion/preference is all. If I was picking major venues I would not pick PB for that reason alone. And I do agree it is a nice venue and good architecture. I wish they would pull a Coore and Crenshaw style reno on it though. Make it rugged and more natural as it was originally.

> > I aint no big fan of PB either. the ocean is cool, but kinda strange with a course where all the exciting holes are on the front 9.

> > 17 and 18 are not exactly boring but when the course turns left after the seaside holes its like the party is over. Like after 16th green @ AN.

>

> If all you think of the 18th at PB is that it’s not boring, I don’t think lots of people will share your view.

It aint bad but the party is still over when the course turns left. The really cool and spectacular holes are the ones around 9

 

[aabcuue]

> @johnnypro said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @johnnypro said:

> > Bethpage is definitely usually tougher as the rough esp. for the US Open is allowed to grow belly button high 4ft off the fairway and thigh high 1ft off the fairway. However during the PGA Championship, rough was much, much lower. Thigh high fescue at worst areas not trambled down. Balty has been 2-4" thick rough and no fescue during the PGA Championships.

> I think you're exaggerating the rough issue. I'm standing by my original opinion.

Nope. Thats what I saw inside the ropes during the Open/ PGA tournaments and later on when I played Black from the tips.

 

>There's a tee on 15 at the Black that was built for the 2002 Open that STILL hasn't been used. Not once. And they rarely use the new tee they built on 7. USGA was unlucky with the weather in BOTH Opens.

True but esp. 2009 Open. When you plan a tournament 10yrs out, tees are setup for more typical conditions w/ options for outlier situations.

 

> If the Black had played the way it CAN in June, i.e. dry, sunny and quite breezy, +5 would have won, possibly by a lot.

Maybe in 2002 not 2009, 2016 or in the future. Bethpage has been seen by the pros too much via Opens, PGA, Barclays/ Northern Trust and soon Ryder Cup to have the winner not go under par.

[aabcuue]

> @JD3 said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > (Quote)

> > > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

> >

> > Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> > Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

> >

> Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes.

 

Knowing what Tilly was back then wouldn't surprise me if he had some issue that didn't let him finish the greens. Tilly probably laid out the course and green shapes but left before greens and course were actually built.

It would fit the GD part that the superintendent built the course. He would have done all of the on-site work and actual construction.

[johnnypro]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > (Quote)

> > > > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

> > >

> > > Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> > > Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

> > >

> > Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes.

>

> Knowing what Tilly was back then wouldn't surprise me if he had some issue that didn't let him finish the greens. Tilly probably laid out the course and green shapes but left before greens and course were actually built.

> It would fit the GD part that the superintendent built the course. He would have done all of the on-site work and actual construction.

 

I believe the flat-ish greens were intentional. Imagine the Black with greens contoured like Winged Foot. Big numbers!

[JD3]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > (Quote)

> > > > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

> > >

> > > Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> > > Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

> > >

> > Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes.

>

> Knowing what Tilly was back then wouldn't surprise me if he had some issue that didn't let him finish the greens. Tilly probably laid out the course and green shapes but left before greens and course were actually built.

> It would fit the GD part that the superintendent built the course. He would have done all of the on-site work and actual construction.

 

I'm really kind of disappointed that Rees Jones or whoever got the remod work for 2002 us open didn't do something about it. I think they used the "it's too hard for a public golf course" kind of imo nonsense rationale. It's what the course needed to make it interesting. Bunch of hackers will be a bunch of hackers whether ot> @johnnypro said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > (Quote)

> > > > > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

> > > >

> > > > Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> > > > Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

> > > >

> > > Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes.

> >

> > Knowing what Tilly was back then wouldn't surprise me if he had some issue that didn't let him finish the greens. Tilly probably laid out the course and green shapes but left before greens and course were actually built.

> > It would fit the GD part that the superintendent built the course. He would have done all of the on-site work and actual construction.

>

> I believe the flat-ish greens were intentional. Imagine the Black with greens contoured like Winged Foot. Big numbers!

 

Big numbers there already. Hackers will shoot big numbers on flat greens or greens with some contour.

[mizuno player]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @WidespreadPanic said:

> > Baltusrol looked like your standard Country Club course. A nice course? Yeah. A Major Championship course for the PGA Tour? Not in my eyes. The PGA Tour needs to check out Bulle Rock in Maryland.

>

> Standard CC? Since when do CCs have 36holes by Tilly, a golden age architect.

>

> Most of Baltusrols strategic holes never make it on TV. Seeing the course on TV doesn't do it justice as in person. Large multitiered greens, sloping fairways and the mountainous terrain look flat on TV.

>

> Tilly split multiple fairways distancewise forcing strategic play and added defenses against bomb n' gouge play a century ago.

>

> There are many risk/ reward challenges, blind shots, required shot shaping around hazards/doglegs and yes a few blind shots.

>

> After being on Bulle Rock and Baltusrol many times I can see why LPGA doesn't go back to Bulle Rock while USGA and PGA do go back to Baltusrol.

 

LPGA left Bulle Rock because of a sponsor change. Had nothing to do with course.

[LICC]

> @Hankshank said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > Pebble Beach.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You should not pull a course that hosts an annual PGA Tour Tournament (ATT Pebble Beach Pro-Am) and make it into a major venue.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If it is a spectacular course, then why not?

> > > >

> > > > Just my opinion/preference is all. If I was picking major venues I would not pick PB for that reason alone. And I do agree it is a nice venue and good architecture. I wish they would pull a Coore and Crenshaw style reno on it though. Make it rugged and more natural as it was originally.

> > > I aint no big fan of PB either. the ocean is cool, but kinda strange with a course where all the exciting holes are on the front 9.

> > > 17 and 18 are not exactly boring but when the course turns left after the seaside holes its like the party is over. Like after 16th green @ AN.

> >

> > If all you think of the 18th at PB is that it’s not boring, I don’t think lots of people will share your view.

> It aint bad but the party is still over when the course turns left. The really cool and spectacular holes are the ones around 9

>

 

You are talking about holes 6-10. Spectacular. The following holes have some very good ones, and 17 and 18 are excellent. It’s just that not many holes anywhere can compare to 6-10 at Pebble

[Johnny Biarritz]

> @JD3 said:

> Clear winner imo is Whistling Straits. First the bunker debacle that cost DJ a spot in the playoff.

 

Interesting you say WS first. A friend of mine who's played pretty much every course of significance in the US said that WS has 16 good holes, but that the 5th is the worst hole he's ever played on a supposedly "great" course and that 18 looks like the aftermath of a orgy scene in a pern film...$H!T sprayed all over the place.

[LICC]

> @aabcuue said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > (Quote)

> > > > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

> > >

> > > Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> > > Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

> > >

> > Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes.

>

> Knowing what Tilly was back then wouldn't surprise me if he had some issue that didn't let him finish the greens. Tilly probably laid out the course and green shapes but left before greens and course were actually built.

> It would fit the GD part that the superintendent built the course. He would have done all of the on-site work and actual construction.

 

Saying they are pancake flat is an exaggeration. A few are. And none have substantial slopes or mounds. But some have significant slopes and ridges. And recently some of the greens have been enlarged closer to their original sizes which have brought more slopes into play.

[straightshot7]

Whichever ones had Fox/FS1 Sports as the broadcast. They butcher everything.

[Hankshank]

> @LICC said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > > Pebble Beach.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You should not pull a course that hosts an annual PGA Tour Tournament (ATT Pebble Beach Pro-Am) and make it into a major venue.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If it is a spectacular course, then why not?

> > > > >

> > > > > Just my opinion/preference is all. If I was picking major venues I would not pick PB for that reason alone. And I do agree it is a nice venue and good architecture. I wish they would pull a Coore and Crenshaw style reno on it though. Make it rugged and more natural as it was originally.

> > > > I aint no big fan of PB either. the ocean is cool, but kinda strange with a course where all the exciting holes are on the front 9.

> > > > 17 and 18 are not exactly boring but when the course turns left after the seaside holes its like the party is over. Like after 16th green @ AN.

> > >

> > > If all you think of the 18th at PB is that it’s not boring, I don’t think lots of people will share your view.

> > It aint bad but the party is still over when the course turns left. The really cool and spectacular holes are the ones around 9

> >

>

> You are talking about holes 6-10. Spectacular. The following holes have some very good ones, and 17 and 18 are excellent. It’s just that not many holes anywhere can compare to 6-10 at Pebble

Guess you have some kind of relation to the golf course apart from just seeing it on TV. We say basically the same thing but you like the golf course more than I do. My wife and kids were taking that highway 1 drive when in US a couple of years ago and visited the Monterey peninsula. They found the area beautiful(My only time in US was Boston ’83 in -20c). I didnt think much about Old Course St Andrews before I actually came there a decade ago and played it. The place is magical, and so much more when you have actually been there. So I wont argue about specific holes. Some people like some golf courses, other people like others.

[scruffynick]

> @imakaveli said:

> Played Royal Birkdale in August, maybe it's me but I don't really understand what's so special about that place. Clubhouse is great though, a true golf museum!

>

>

>

> If you are in that area go and play Formby for half the price, that place is a gem!

 

You're right there, hillside is even better. Hillside for me is the best back 9 in the uk.... Birkdale is still class thou, it's hard as nails but the back 9 is one hell of a challenge

[LICC]

> @Hankshank said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > > > Pebble Beach.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You should not pull a course that hosts an annual PGA Tour Tournament (ATT Pebble Beach Pro-Am) and make it into a major venue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If it is a spectacular course, then why not?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just my opinion/preference is all. If I was picking major venues I would not pick PB for that reason alone. And I do agree it is a nice venue and good architecture. I wish they would pull a Coore and Crenshaw style reno on it though. Make it rugged and more natural as it was originally.

> > > > > I aint no big fan of PB either. the ocean is cool, but kinda strange with a course where all the exciting holes are on the front 9.

> > > > > 17 and 18 are not exactly boring but when the course turns left after the seaside holes its like the party is over. Like after 16th green @ AN.

> > > >

> > > > If all you think of the 18th at PB is that it’s not boring, I don’t think lots of people will share your view.

> > > It aint bad but the party is still over when the course turns left. The really cool and spectacular holes are the ones around 9

> > >

> >

> > You are talking about holes 6-10. Spectacular. The following holes have some very good ones, and 17 and 18 are excellent. It’s just that not many holes anywhere can compare to 6-10 at Pebble

> Guess you have some kind of relation to the golf course apart from just seeing it on TV. We say basically the same thing but you like the golf course more than I do. My wife and kids were taking that highway 1 drive when in US a couple of years ago and visited the Monterey peninsula. They found the area beautiful(My only time in US was Boston ’83 in -20c). I didnt think much about Old Course St Andrews before I actually came there a decade ago and played it. The place is magical, and so much more when you have actually been there. So I wont argue about specific holes. Some people like some golf courses, other people like others.

 

I have no relation to the course other than I’ve played it.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > I think a lot of the courses in the northeast are supremely overrated, but have hosted so many majors that they are considered great. The topography and natural beauty of the area has no real redeeming qualities.

> > >

> > Balty is built on the side on an old mountain range or rl large hill.

> >

> > > They can just have courses in good shape for the time of year, have some bunkers, slick up the greens, and grow out the rough without being guaranteed to be over 90*F. I think the reason so many are hosted over there is a summer climate issue more than anything.

> > >

> > Balty and most of the NorthEast are *definitely* over 90F in August and many days in May are also. Phils 2005 win featured all 90+F days, some in the 100+F and scores of patrons passing out daily. EMS, ambulances and the Red Cross were are on hand trying to reduce heat strokes and heat exhaustion cases.

> > August in NE is as hot as Florida and much of the south.

> >

> > > I really would like to see more majors played out west, but the climate is a limitation inland from the coast given the time of year of the US Open/PGA. There are some amazing layouts in the inland NW which would curb the heat, but I'm not sure any are worthy of a major. The Seattle corridor has some really good ones, but people don't want to see pros hitting it 285 instead of 325.

> > >

> > That didn't stop the last Balty PGA Championship in 2016. 285 is what most pros were hitting after the rain. Zero roll and unfortunately lift, clean & .... for some tournament days.

> >

> > I'm surprised the old PGA August date didn't feature New England esp. Boston area courses. Thats a great way to moderate the heat.

>

> The topography of the Northeast doesn’t have redeeming qualities? I don’t think this statement could be any more wrong. It’s among the best land for golf anywhere. Coastal or near coastal, sandy soil, rolling land with elevations, contours, etc.

 

Meh, disagree. It’s by far my least favorite region in the US. Lived and visited many times, and I don’t see the appeal. Different strokes.

 

[LICC]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > I think a lot of the courses in the northeast are supremely overrated, but have hosted so many majors that they are considered great. The topography and natural beauty of the area has no real redeeming qualities.

> > > >

> > > Balty is built on the side on an old mountain range or rl large hill.

> > >

> > > > They can just have courses in good shape for the time of year, have some bunkers, slick up the greens, and grow out the rough without being guaranteed to be over 90*F. I think the reason so many are hosted over there is a summer climate issue more than anything.

> > > >

> > > Balty and most of the NorthEast are *definitely* over 90F in August and many days in May are also. Phils 2005 win featured all 90+F days, some in the 100+F and scores of patrons passing out daily. EMS, ambulances and the Red Cross were are on hand trying to reduce heat strokes and heat exhaustion cases.

> > > August in NE is as hot as Florida and much of the south.

> > >

> > > > I really would like to see more majors played out west, but the climate is a limitation inland from the coast given the time of year of the US Open/PGA. There are some amazing layouts in the inland NW which would curb the heat, but I'm not sure any are worthy of a major. The Seattle corridor has some really good ones, but people don't want to see pros hitting it 285 instead of 325.

> > > >

> > > That didn't stop the last Balty PGA Championship in 2016. 285 is what most pros were hitting after the rain. Zero roll and unfortunately lift, clean & .... for some tournament days.

> > >

> > > I'm surprised the old PGA August date didn't feature New England esp. Boston area courses. Thats a great way to moderate the heat.

> >

> > The topography of the Northeast doesn’t have redeeming qualities? I don’t think this statement could be any more wrong. It’s among the best land for golf anywhere. Coastal or near coastal, sandy soil, rolling land with elevations, contours, etc.

>

> Meh, disagree. It’s by far my least favorite region in the US. Lived and visited many times, and I don’t see the appeal. Different strokes.

>

 

But you give nothing on which to base your opinion. Where in the country has any better topography for golf? Maybe some spots on the West Coast arguably, but the NE is as good as any region in the country for golf land based on what I said earlier.

[KRAMER1997]

Oak Hill is probably the blandest major championship venue. Nothing about that courses screams exciting. Every hole is a mid-length par 4 with US open rough.

[JD3]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > I think a lot of the courses in the northeast are supremely overrated, but have hosted so many majors that they are considered great. The topography and natural beauty of the area has no real redeeming qualities.

> > > > >

> > > > Balty is built on the side on an old mountain range or rl large hill.

> > > >

> > > > > They can just have courses in good shape for the time of year, have some bunkers, slick up the greens, and grow out the rough without being guaranteed to be over 90*F. I think the reason so many are hosted over there is a summer climate issue more than anything.

> > > > >

> > > > Balty and most of the NorthEast are *definitely* over 90F in August and many days in May are also. Phils 2005 win featured all 90+F days, some in the 100+F and scores of patrons passing out daily. EMS, ambulances and the Red Cross were are on hand trying to reduce heat strokes and heat exhaustion cases.

> > > > August in NE is as hot as Florida and much of the south.

> > > >

> > > > > I really would like to see more majors played out west, but the climate is a limitation inland from the coast given the time of year of the US Open/PGA. There are some amazing layouts in the inland NW which would curb the heat, but I'm not sure any are worthy of a major. The Seattle corridor has some really good ones, but people don't want to see pros hitting it 285 instead of 325.

> > > > >

> > > > That didn't stop the last Balty PGA Championship in 2016. 285 is what most pros were hitting after the rain. Zero roll and unfortunately lift, clean & .... for some tournament days.

> > > >

> > > > I'm surprised the old PGA August date didn't feature New England esp. Boston area courses. Thats a great way to moderate the heat.

> > >

> > > The topography of the Northeast doesn’t have redeeming qualities? I don’t think this statement could be any more wrong. It’s among the best land for golf anywhere. Coastal or near coastal, sandy soil, rolling land with elevations, contours, etc.

> >

> > Meh, disagree. It’s by far my least favorite region in the US. Lived and visited many times, and I don’t see the appeal. Different strokes.

> >

>

> But you give nothing on which to base your opinion. Where in the country has any better topography for golf? Maybe some spots on the West Coast arguably, but the NE is as good as any region in the country for golf land based on what I said earlier.

 

No finer stretch of golf in the world than long island (especially Eastern part including fishers island)

[aabcuue]

> @JD3 said:

> > @aabcuue said:

> > > @JD3 said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @JD3 said:

> > > > > (Quote)

> > > > > BPB certainly earned it's status as a major stop. IMO it would also be worth nominating as best course in the world if only the greens had been finished by tillinghast too. Sadly the they were done by a local firm after tillinghast left the project. As is they're very flat and not too interesting being so large.

> > > >

> > > > Depending on who you believe, read the multiple GD articles, either Tilly consulted in depth, briefly or the superintendent built Black on his own.

> > > > Yes in many opinions, Black's weakest aspect is the greens & easier18th hole.

> > > >

> > > Whatever the story is I don't believe Tilly would have left them that way. On no other course are his greens pancake flat. It looks almost certain to me he did the foot print for each green...they're classic Tilly shapes...and then whoever finished them just made the actual surfaces pancakes.

> >

> > Knowing what Tilly was back then wouldn't surprise me if he had some issue that didn't let him finish the greens. Tilly probably laid out the course and green shapes but left before greens and course were actually built.

> > It would fit the GD part that the superintendent built the course. He would have done all of the on-site work and actual construction.

>

> I'm really kind of disappointed that Rees Jones or whoever got the remod work for 2002 us open didn't do something about it. I think they used the "it's too hard for a public golf course" kind of imo nonsense rationale. It's what the course needed to make it interesting. Bunch of hackers will be a bunch of hackers whether ot

 

Black was designed to be a rl tough country club for the public. It was meant to challenge all comers and identify the best players.

[Hankshank]

> @LICC said:

> > @Hankshank said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Hankshank said:

> > > > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @smashdn said:

> > > > > > > > > Pebble Beach.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You should not pull a course that hosts an annual PGA Tour Tournament (ATT Pebble Beach Pro-Am) and make it into a major venue.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If it is a spectacular course, then why not?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just my opinion/preference is all. If I was picking major venues I would not pick PB for that reason alone. And I do agree it is a nice venue and good architecture. I wish they would pull a Coore and Crenshaw style reno on it though. Make it rugged and more natural as it was originally.

> > > > > > I aint no big fan of PB either. the ocean is cool, but kinda strange with a course where all the exciting holes are on the front 9.

> > > > > > 17 and 18 are not exactly boring but when the course turns left after the seaside holes its like the party is over. Like after 16th green @ AN.

> > > > >

> > > > > If all you think of the 18th at PB is that it’s not boring, I don’t think lots of people will share your view.

> > > > It aint bad but the party is still over when the course turns left. The really cool and spectacular holes are the ones around 9

> > > >

> > >

> > > You are talking about holes 6-10. Spectacular. The following holes have some very good ones, and 17 and 18 are excellent. It’s just that not many holes anywhere can compare to 6-10 at Pebble

> > Guess you have some kind of relation to the golf course apart from just seeing it on TV. We say basically the same thing but you like the golf course more than I do. My wife and kids were taking that highway 1 drive when in US a couple of years ago and visited the Monterey peninsula. They found the area beautiful(My only time in US was Boston ’83 in -20c). I didnt think much about Old Course St Andrews before I actually came there a decade ago and played it. The place is magical, and so much more when you have actually been there. So I wont argue about specific holes. Some people like some golf courses, other people like others.

>

> I have no relation to the course other than I’ve played it.

If relation just can be used kind of sexually in English, my apologies. Apart from that, actually playing a golf course will give at least me new perspectives on a golf course. For instance, I guess the Ocean is still something that feels close and adds to the experience when actually playing 11-16, but I cannot get that feeling when just seeing it on TV.

I would not say no if I got a chance to play 18 holes on that golf course...

[Santiago Golf]

The old course has been said alot which i dont agree with at all. My question has always been though since they play it every 5-6 years for the open, why dont alternate playing it forward and backwards since it possible and would make for a great tournament.

[whartonry]

Torrey Pines

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > I think a lot of the courses in the northeast are supremely overrated, but have hosted so many majors that they are considered great. The topography and natural beauty of the area has no real redeeming qualities.

> > > > >

> > > > Balty is built on the side on an old mountain range or rl large hill.

> > > >

> > > > > They can just have courses in good shape for the time of year, have some bunkers, slick up the greens, and grow out the rough without being guaranteed to be over 90*F. I think the reason so many are hosted over there is a summer climate issue more than anything.

> > > > >

> > > > Balty and most of the NorthEast are *definitely* over 90F in August and many days in May are also. Phils 2005 win featured all 90+F days, some in the 100+F and scores of patrons passing out daily. EMS, ambulances and the Red Cross were are on hand trying to reduce heat strokes and heat exhaustion cases.

> > > > August in NE is as hot as Florida and much of the south.

> > > >

> > > > > I really would like to see more majors played out west, but the climate is a limitation inland from the coast given the time of year of the US Open/PGA. There are some amazing layouts in the inland NW which would curb the heat, but I'm not sure any are worthy of a major. The Seattle corridor has some really good ones, but people don't want to see pros hitting it 285 instead of 325.

> > > > >

> > > > That didn't stop the last Balty PGA Championship in 2016. 285 is what most pros were hitting after the rain. Zero roll and unfortunately lift, clean & .... for some tournament days.

> > > >

> > > > I'm surprised the old PGA August date didn't feature New England esp. Boston area courses. Thats a great way to moderate the heat.

> > >

> > > The topography of the Northeast doesn’t have redeeming qualities? I don’t think this statement could be any more wrong. It’s among the best land for golf anywhere. Coastal or near coastal, sandy soil, rolling land with elevations, contours, etc.

> >

> > Meh, disagree. It’s by far my least favorite region in the US. Lived and visited many times, and I don’t see the appeal. Different strokes.

> >

>

> But you give nothing on which to base your opinion. Where in the country has any better topography for golf? Maybe some spots on the West Coast arguably, but the NE is as good as any region in the country for golf land based on what I said earlier.

 

I don't like it. It's not for me. As a whole, I much prefer the courses in other regions of the United States. Is that OK?

[LICC]

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > I think a lot of the courses in the northeast are supremely overrated, but have hosted so many majors that they are considered great. The topography and natural beauty of the area has no real redeeming qualities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Balty is built on the side on an old mountain range or rl large hill.

> > > > >

> > > > > > They can just have courses in good shape for the time of year, have some bunkers, slick up the greens, and grow out the rough without being guaranteed to be over 90*F. I think the reason so many are hosted over there is a summer climate issue more than anything.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Balty and most of the NorthEast are *definitely* over 90F in August and many days in May are also. Phils 2005 win featured all 90+F days, some in the 100+F and scores of patrons passing out daily. EMS, ambulances and the Red Cross were are on hand trying to reduce heat strokes and heat exhaustion cases.

> > > > > August in NE is as hot as Florida and much of the south.

> > > > >

> > > > > > I really would like to see more majors played out west, but the climate is a limitation inland from the coast given the time of year of the US Open/PGA. There are some amazing layouts in the inland NW which would curb the heat, but I'm not sure any are worthy of a major. The Seattle corridor has some really good ones, but people don't want to see pros hitting it 285 instead of 325.

> > > > > >

> > > > > That didn't stop the last Balty PGA Championship in 2016. 285 is what most pros were hitting after the rain. Zero roll and unfortunately lift, clean & .... for some tournament days.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm surprised the old PGA August date didn't feature New England esp. Boston area courses. Thats a great way to moderate the heat.

> > > >

> > > > The topography of the Northeast doesn’t have redeeming qualities? I don’t think this statement could be any more wrong. It’s among the best land for golf anywhere. Coastal or near coastal, sandy soil, rolling land with elevations, contours, etc.

> > >

> > > Meh, disagree. It’s by far my least favorite region in the US. Lived and visited many times, and I don’t see the appeal. Different strokes.

> > >

> >

> > But you give nothing on which to base your opinion. Where in the country has any better topography for golf? Maybe some spots on the West Coast arguably, but the NE is as good as any region in the country for golf land based on what I said earlier.

>

> I don't like it. It's not for me. As a whole, I much prefer the courses in other regions of the United States. Is that OK?

 

What don't you like about it?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @aabcuue said:

> > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > I think a lot of the courses in the northeast are supremely overrated, but have hosted so many majors that they are considered great. The topography and natural beauty of the area has no real redeeming qualities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Balty is built on the side on an old mountain range or rl large hill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > They can just have courses in good shape for the time of year, have some bunkers, slick up the greens, and grow out the rough without being guaranteed to be over 90*F. I think the reason so many are hosted over there is a summer climate issue more than anything.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Balty and most of the NorthEast are *definitely* over 90F in August and many days in May are also. Phils 2005 win featured all 90+F days, some in the 100+F and scores of patrons passing out daily. EMS, ambulances and the Red Cross were are on hand trying to reduce heat strokes and heat exhaustion cases.

> > > > > > August in NE is as hot as Florida and much of the south.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > I really would like to see more majors played out west, but the climate is a limitation inland from the coast given the time of year of the US Open/PGA. There are some amazing layouts in the inland NW which would curb the heat, but I'm not sure any are worthy of a major. The Seattle corridor has some really good ones, but people don't want to see pros hitting it 285 instead of 325.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > That didn't stop the last Balty PGA Championship in 2016. 285 is what most pros were hitting after the rain. Zero roll and unfortunately lift, clean & .... for some tournament days.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm surprised the old PGA August date didn't feature New England esp. Boston area courses. Thats a great way to moderate the heat.

> > > > >

> > > > > The topography of the Northeast doesn’t have redeeming qualities? I don’t think this statement could be any more wrong. It’s among the best land for golf anywhere. Coastal or near coastal, sandy soil, rolling land with elevations, contours, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Meh, disagree. It’s by far my least favorite region in the US. Lived and visited many times, and I don’t see the appeal. Different strokes.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But you give nothing on which to base your opinion. Where in the country has any better topography for golf? Maybe some spots on the West Coast arguably, but the NE is as good as any region in the country for golf land based on what I said earlier.

> >

> > I don't like it. It's not for me. As a whole, I much prefer the courses in other regions of the United States. Is that OK?

>

> What don't you like about it?

 

I can’t really put my finger on it. I just get weird vibes from the region, and I’ve never found appeal in the nature or landscape there. Have you ever liked something less than other things? It happened to me.

 

[Liquid]

> @whartonry said:

> Torrey Pines

 

Totally agree.