New World Handicaps 2020

[North Butte]

Any handicap system which can only work properly by having millions of golfers typing a score (or an X) into 18 blanks on an iPhone app after every single round is a broken system. If it's something that a normal golfer, acting in good faith, can't do without resorting to computer data entry then fix the system so it can be done.

 

And as I've pointed out upthread, the assumption is that the data-entry mistakes of this hole-by-hole scoring (on a dinky little phone screen by guys wearing trifocals, no less) will cause less of a problem than people incorrectly understanding how ESC or net-double-bogey works.

 

The difference is this. Every one of those 18 numbers will have a non-negligible likelihood of being incorrectly entered. Including the 95% of those numbers which are legitimate hole scores (not imputed by some max-hole-score rule). It's a system design that will create errors in the straightforward 95% of your data (plain vanilla hole scores) in order to better apply some kind of ad hoc rule for dealing with the 5% of your data that is missing or censored.

 

That's an awful design tradeoff. Better to come up with a way of dealing with pickup or blowup holes that golfers themselves can actually understand. For those playing in the UK or other places where Stableford scoring is commonplace the solution is obvious. Max hole score is the same as the holes with a Stableford "blob". There is no similarly obvious solution in USA. I think the "ESC" thing would have had better compliance if it were named differently and if the whole "course handicap" thing were not involved.

[davep043]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > So Esc will remain in the US?

> >

> > NO, at least not in the way it is understood right now. The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey. The term "Equitable Stroke Control" will be gone completely, but the same concept, a limit on the score for each individual hole, will remain.

>

> That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

 

The introduction of ESC, as compared to the previous hole limits, befuddled lots of golfers, yet most of us have managed to learn to use it. Yes, change isn't always easy, but in this particular way we Americans are moving towards the rest of the world. With the calculational method, those in CONGU are seeing a huge change, moving towards the way we've done things in the US for a long time. We'll all manage to survive the changes.

[Newby]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

Are you really suggesting that all American golfers are less intelligent than the golfers in the rest of the world?

 

 

[davep043]

> @Newby said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

> Are you really suggesting that all American golfers are less intelligent than the golfers in the rest of the world?

>

>

 

Only 75% of us, if I read him correctly.

[Deceptively Short]

I know that if we did not have hole by hole scoring here in CONGU land, that there would have to be a deal more checking of cards (i.e. every card for addition )in medal competitions and loads more in Stableford comps. Just accepting a simple number would render competitions invalid and the long term cumulative effect on handicaps would do the same.

If any authority bases their ‘maximum score’ on NDB but still allows a simple total to be the recording basis for the raw data of their handicap system, they, imo, have given up before they have started.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Newby said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

> Are you really suggesting that all American golfers are less intelligent than the golfers in the rest of the world?

>

>

 

Now, now. Don't be insulting. It is most, not all. ;-)

[Newby]

I thought at least 50% of ALL golfers lived in the US.

So the other 25% (of that 75%) must live in the ROW.

So half of those (in the ROW) are less intelligent than the other half.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @davep043 said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @davep043 said:

> > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > So Esc will remain in the US?

> > >

> > > NO, at least not in the way it is understood right now. The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey. The term "Equitable Stroke Control" will be gone completely, but the same concept, a limit on the score for each individual hole, will remain.

> >

> > That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

>

> The introduction of ESC, as compared to the previous hole limits, befuddled lots of golfers, yet most of us have managed to learn to use it. Yes, change isn't always easy, but in this particular way we Americans are moving towards the rest of the world. With the calculational method, those in CONGU are seeing a huge change, moving towards the way we've done things in the US for a long time. We'll all manage to survive the changes.

 

It's not change that's the issue, it's making it more complicated, more conditions and more prone to errors. That's the issue.

 

ESC is easy. Know your course handicap and you know your ESC. Then at the end of the round, while having a beer with your buddies, you post a single number for the entire round. For instance I know I can't count an 8, so if I had an 8, I subtract one from my total and post it. That takes about 30 seconds on the phone app. All my buddies post this way while chatting over a post round beer.

 

The problem with the new system is extra math and/or hole by hole posting which will take a lot longer, is more error prone, throw in extra math and even more errors. Guys won't post while chatting with their buddies because it will take too much time and focus to post hole by hole and rounds won't get posted or they'll get posted with errors.

 

 

 

[Newby]

If you simply return your hole by hole gross the system calculates NDB. Don't players over there enter hole gross on their cards?

 

Of course entering hole by hole means you don't have to add anything up. Nor do you have to subtract anything either.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Newby said:

> If you simply return your hole by hole gross the system calculates NDB. Don't players over there enter hole gross on their cards?

 

We can do it two ways. Via terminal in the pro shop, hole by hole esc score. Or most commonly using a phone app and post the total gross score (not hole by hole) less any esc strokes. Since the phone app came out years ago you rarely see anyone posting hole by hole.

[Deceptively Short]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > > @davep043 said:

> > > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > > So Esc will remain in the US?

> > > >

> > > > NO, at least not in the way it is understood right now. The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey. The term "Equitable Stroke Control" will be gone completely, but the same concept, a limit on the score for each individual hole, will remain.

> > >

> > > That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

> >

> > The introduction of ESC, as compared to the previous hole limits, befuddled lots of golfers, yet most of us have managed to learn to use it. Yes, change isn't always easy, but in this particular way we Americans are moving towards the rest of the world. With the calculational method, those in CONGU are seeing a huge change, moving towards the way we've done things in the US for a long time. We'll all manage to survive the changes.

>

> It's not change that's the issue, it's making it more complicated, more conditions and more prone to errors. That's the issue.

>

> ESC is easy. Know your course handicap and you know your ESC. Then at the end of the round, while having a beer with your buddies, you post a single number for the entire round. For instance I know I can't count an 8, so if I had an 8, I subtract one from my total and post it. That takes about 30 seconds on the phone app. All my buddies post this way while chatting over a post round beer.

>

> The problem with the new system is extra math and/or hole by hole posting which will take a lot longer, is more error prone, throw in extra math and even more errors. Guys won't post while chatting with their buddies because it will take too much time and focus to post hole by hole and rounds won't get posted or they'll get posted with errors.

>

>

>

I hear that ‘Esc’ is easy from one side but on the other hand people are saying that ‘most’ golfers don’t understand Esc and just post there uncorrected gross scores, thereby ‘accidentally’ becoming sandbaggers.

Either way hole by hole solves the confusion.

If this is too much of an administrative burden then a true WHS is a pipe dream as is a sensible US system imo. Garbage in......

 

[Newby]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > If you simply return your hole by hole gross the system calculates NDB. Don't players over there enter hole gross on their cards?

>

> We can do it two ways. Via terminal in the pro shop, **hole by hole esc score. **Or most commonly using a phone app and post the total gross score (not hole by hole) less any esc strokes. Since the phone app came out years ago you rarely see anyone posting hole by hole.

So you have a record of your actual gross scores and have to do the arithmetic to get the total? Where do you keep those scores? On a card or on the phone?

What if a new WHS app came out to let you enter gross scores on the run?

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Newby said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > If you simply return your hole by hole gross the system calculates NDB. Don't players over there enter hole gross on their cards?

> >

> > We can do it two ways. Via terminal in the pro shop, **hole by hole esc score. **Or most commonly using a phone app and post the total gross score (not hole by hole) less any esc strokes. Since the phone app came out years ago you rarely see anyone posting hole by hole.

> So you have a record of your actual gross scores and have to do the arithmetic to get the total? Where do you keep those scores? On a card or on the phone?

> What if a new WHS app came out to let you enter gross scores on the run?

>

 

We Record it on a card hole by hole like most people I suppose. Any holes exceeding ESC are easily identified. May be 1 or 2 on a bad round so subtracting 2 off total score before posting is about as easy as it gets. I bet most people would have no interest of entering scores hole by hole during the round. Most people don't want to have their phone out while they play unless they happen to use it as a GPS.

 

Now there are technologies available that could allow someone to photograph their card and would automatically fill in hole by hole entry, which would be great. However I'd be very surprised if this system is that sophisticated. Also not sure how that technology would deal with scores for four golfers.

 

 

 

[Newby]

How often do you recount/check your addition?

 

But why not just key your gross holes from your card whilst having your beer. All the math is done and dusted?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Newby said:

> How often do you recount/check your addition?

>

> But why not just key your gross holes from your card whilst having your beer. All the math is done and dusted?

 

Because it will take too long. One here in the US can post to the GHIN in 30 seconds. Whereas hole by hole would, especially on a phone screen, would take significantly longer. Sure there might be some rare math errors but keying 18 times greatly increases the odds of a keying error.

 

This is the crux of the problem and the farce of the WHS. We do things differently and that's OK. Global portability of handicaps from a US perspective is not needed.

[Colin L]

It is needed when we receive visiting players from the US.

 

 

 

 

[davep043]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > If you simply return your hole by hole gross the system calculates NDB. Don't players over there enter hole gross on their cards?

>

> We can do it two ways. Via terminal in the pro shop, hole by hole esc score. Or most commonly using a phone app and post the total gross score (not hole by hole) less any esc strokes. Since the phone app came out years ago you rarely see anyone posting hole by hole.

 

It is completely possible that the phone app will be revised to require hole by hole gross score posting. I've posted scores hole by hole at the club computer, and it takes about 12 seconds once you get to the right screen. After the second time around on a phone app it will become just as fast. Again, we just don't know what we'll be required to do.

It may already be apparent, but I have very little patience for those who say something just can't be done, people can't change, its way too complicated. These changes really aren't that difficult.

[Colin L]

As Dave says, it takes no significant time to enter hole by hole scores in a computer terminal although waiting your turn to do it can sometimes be a slight pain. It will be all the quicker when we can enter them on our phones - as will happen in due course - since we will then be making a single entry at the end of each hole as we would with pencil and card but with no need to re-enter them in a computer at the end of a round and so nothing getting between us and the beer . No need either for any arithmetic and no potential therefore for arithmetical error. What can be slicker and more reliable?

[Newby]

Note that the USGA/R&A have already anticipated the move away from cards.

 

**Definition - Scorecard**

_The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee

that allows:

The player’s score to be entered for each hole,_

 

Edit: I have just heard from a software vendor (on a different topic) who is working on such an app.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Newby said:

> Note that the USGA/R&A have already anticipated the move away from cards.

>

> **Definition - Scorecard**

> _The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee

> that allows:

> The player’s score to be entered for each hole,_

>

> Edit: I have just heard from a software vendor (on a different topic) who is working on such an app.

 

Interesting. I'm skeptical but it may work well if they have a photo service that automatically converts the image of a scorecard to a hole by hole entry. Also If they have an app that you can enter scores hole by hole as played that might work for some but many don't want to handle their phones during a round. Also The risk of dropping and breaking goes way up...which isn't good.

 

@"Colin L" @davep043

It literally takes 13 seconds to open the app, select course and tees from the recent course list, select type (home, away, tournament), select date, enter 2 digit round score and press Post score. I know my total score in my head so no need for glasses and having and referencing the card. All done in the presence of buddies and never need to skip a sip of beer.

 

Entering hole by hole will take a lot longer than that from end to end. Have the card... Oh who has our card? Guys will have to track it down for their group, that takes time. Many will need their glasses because now have read the card hole by hole while keying and advancing to the next hole 18 times. This is Many more button pushes and will add time, referencing a card hole by hole will take more time. Making sure a keying mistake didn't occur will take more time. There is no way around it that it will take a lot longer. If there is not an app and people have to go to a terminal that will take more time. Waiting in line for the terminal will add even more time.

 

I hope I'm proven wrong and it won't give me pleasure if you are wrong.

 

 

[Colin L]

I'm sure you are wrong! You finish a hole. At the next tee while someone else is teeing off, you pull out your phone just as you would a card, key in a single digit (ok maybe occasionally 2!) and put your phone back in your pocket or in your bag.

 

By the way, I can't believe that every player in the USA is capable of calculating his adjusted gross score and remembering it without ever writing anything down. I couldn't.

[Colin L]

> @Newby said:

> Note that the USGA/R&A have already anticipated the move away from cards.

>

> **Definition - Scorecard**

> _The scorecard may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee

> that allows:

> The player’s score to be entered for each hole,_

>

> Edit: I have just heard from a software vendor (on a different topic) who is working on such an app.

 

 

Scottish Golf is developing a management system which includes a tournament grade app for entering comps, scoring, leaderboard, handicapping etc. That part of the whole package is through its Beta testing and has been adopted by the club which did the testing. It's all encouraging progress!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Colin L" said:

> I'm sure you are wrong! You finish a hole. At the next tee while someone else is teeing off, you pull out your phone just as you would a card, key in a single digit (ok maybe occasionally 2!) and put your phone back in your pocket or in your bag.

>

> By the way, I can't believe that every player in the USA is capable of calculating his adjusted gross score and remembering it without ever writing anything down. I couldn't.

 

I agree recording a score electronically after a hole is one valid way and would work great for some. However many don't want to handle their phone for various reasons while on the course. Those reasons have been discussed extensively over the years on this site. I happen to use my garmin watch and enter hole by hole as I play, but to post all I need is to see my final score and remember if I had any 8's. I'm unique and few others I know do this on their watch.

 

As for calculating an adjusted score here in the US it is simple. Write down your score hole by hole and total it at the end. I presume most do this across the globe? Then we make a mental note of any holes that exceeded the ESC and subtract those strokes. It's so simple. For example most people I play with have course handicaps between 10-19, which means the max score on any hole is a 7. It's easy to remember any holes that may exceed that and you just take those off your final score.

 

So no you haven't proven me wrong yet. I hope you can some day because I'll also be happy :)

 

 

[Newby]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

 

>

> As for calculating an adjusted score here in the US it is simple. Write down your score hole by hole and total it at the end. I presume most do this across the globe? Then we make a mental note of any holes that exceeded the ESC and subtract those strokes. It's so simple.

>

It's even simpler in the RoW. As each hole gross score is entered, adjustments are made automatically. No need to make mental notes or do any calculations. When the app come out no need for a card. The app will be on phones and gps devices.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Newby said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

>

> >

> > As for calculating an adjusted score here in the US it is simple. Write down your score hole by hole and total it at the end. I presume most do this across the globe? Then we make a mental note of any holes that exceeded the ESC and subtract those strokes. It's so simple.

> >

> It's even simpler in the RoW. As each hole gross score is entered, adjustments are made automatically. No need to make mental notes or do any calculations. When the app come out no need for a card. The app will be on phones and gps devices.

>

 

Gonna have to agree to disagree. Remembering to deduct one stroke from your total for that snowman is simple. Whereas ROW Hole by hole entry takes exponentially more time, especially if you must enter the data post round. Certainly real-time entry would be fast but that forces people to either handle their phone on the course or would require purchase of a secondary device. Anything like that is a big fail.

 

Hopefully they can come up with an OCR type application that automatically enter numbers from the scorecard photo. I remain highly skeptical.

 

[Newby]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

 

> Hopefully they can come up with an OCR type application that automatically enter numbers from the scorecard photo. I remain highly skeptical.

>

Such devices already exist.

.

.

and

http://www.golfclub.com.au/pdfs/GCS_eScore_2014r.pdf

 

 

[Roadking2003]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> So Esc will remain in the US?

 

Yes. Just using a different name (max net double bogey) and formula. But it's still ESC.

[Roadking2003]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > So Esc will remain in the US?

> >

> > NO, at least not in the way it is understood right now. The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey. The term "Equitable Stroke Control" will be gone completely, but the same concept, a limit on the score for each individual hole, will remain.

>

> That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

 

I don't see why. It's a very simple concept and not much different than ESC is today. In fact, it could be seen as simpler than ESC since the same rule applies to all handicaps while under ESC there are five tiers and you have to find your tier before deciding if ESC applies to a hole.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Newby said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

>

> > Hopefully they can come up with an OCR type application that automatically enter numbers from the scorecard photo. I remain highly skeptical.

> >

> Such devices already exist.

>

> .

> .

> and

> http://www.golfclub.com.au/pdfs/GCS_eScore_2014r.pdf

>

>

 

Oh I know the technology has been around for years. It's currently used in many places, including online banking phone apps for check deposits. Do we know if it will be part of the phone app? If so then I'm excited.

 

Your experience with your handicapping authority sounds good. However anytime technology and the usga are mentioned together eyebrows will raise. It was just a couple years ago that the phone posting app server was down for 4 weeks. The code somehow got corrupted and their vendor was incompetent. They recently just dealt with smartphone use on the course after they'd been around for years. They lost control of equipment technology advances.

 

To be clear, I'm a fan of technology, I work in IT, I'm an app junkie and love gadgets. But anything that restricts the ability to post or makes posting take longer, requires use of phone on course or purchase of a scoring device then it's a fail.

 

Again I may be pleasantly surprised, but until we know more I remain skeptical and critical.

 

 

 

[Colin L]

I dropped into my club this evening to make a restaurant booking and passed a couple of guys at the terminal putting in their scores from today's medal. They would already, as required by the Rules, have marked up each other's cards on a hole by hole basis and signed the cards as marker or player. Fast forward to a phone app and these same guys would have been in the bar when I came in. They would have taken no longer, possibly less time, to enter each other's hole by hole score on a phone than with card and pencil. I just don't get the idea that it takes more time when in fact it cuts out one process from the current system and I don't get the idea that it takes longer on course than recording a score on a card. As for _exponentially_ longer, that is baffling.