Jump to content
2024 Houston Open WITB Photos ×

3/8" Club Stepping - Starting Point


LostArkitekt

Recommended Posts

> @"Florida Gator" said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @"Florida Gator" said:

> > > From a practical experience, when I had my MP-68s rebuilt to 3/8 from 1/2, I asked my fitter to make the 4 iron the length of my current 6 iron. The reasoning was that I can stripe a 6 in my sleep. I also asked to have the set MOI matched to my current 9 iron, which to me felt the best of all irons. We took these constraints and he built the set for me and the difference has been huge, I made the change in 2012 if I remember correctly. My MP-5 were built to the same spec, club for club.

> > >

> > > My next change is possibly going to 1/4” for my MP-20s. Using both A and B weights within the set will reduce the headache of getting the MOI numbers we are looking for. The 1/4” set will open up the “half step” problem of tipping a taper tip shaft to get it to fall between full set flexes designed for 1/2” sets. Not a problem if it’s planned for up front.

> >

> > 1/4" is very hard to make good, its easier with 5/16"....and not much of a difference, but enough to make head weight adjustments "possible" without going the extra mile and drill out from those to heavy, and add "too much" to the other.....just saying....reconsider the 2/8" idea, i have not heard of anyone who made it, and 2/8" might give to little club speed progression to make standard heads to works good, not that 5/16" is "much better" but still....we are stretching it to the limit, maybe beyond...

>

> Well, I bought a well used set of MP-5 irons to experiment on when the snow falls, so think I have a good idea how to make it work an get the club heads to the weight needed. If I fail with the experiment, I’m out a few hundred dollars but had fun in the process, and will have learned along the way. I’m a tinkerer at heart, so this gives me something to do!

>

> As always Howard, thanks for all of your insight, I have several of your posts saved for future technical reference.

>

>

 

My best advice for your case is to buy some cheap grips for testing. Make a hole strait trough the butt end, and move the grip tape "down to wanted position", That way you can try off the clubs with the grip in its correct position, still with full return if you went to short. The "grip down", method is good, but when we stretch it this far, we should have the grip and size correct to judge it right. I always use compressed air during fitting, but a modified grip with a whole strait trough is the best, we can play it with more than 1 inch above the cap without issues.

 

Tell us about it when you move on with it, you already have experience from playing MOi matched, so you will instantly know if you are going in the right direction, your longest iron is enough for the test, thats where the issues will be if any.

  • Like 1

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

@WKOU3.

 

The tech side of Golf has been "myth based" for generations, who really knew what they was talking about? it was those folks i meet when i needed "expertise", but what i found was humbug....they had NO CLUE, but i did not want to give up playing Golf, but i was advised to, since my issues was "medical" (bad back), and not related to swing tech or equipment, thats was the advice from all of them...quit Golf, ....like that was an option for a addict?

 

I proved this clowns DEAD WRONG, for sure i had medical issues and still have, they will never leave, but the solution was both equipment AND swing tech related, and no club fitter i saw (5-6 different), or my own swing trainer was able to locate the issue....

 

This photo is NOT me, by my issues was exactly the same, and i was not alone with it. This player has a way to early release, and try to force the club forward, with a distance from his own back and spine to the clubs actual BP way to long out, he ADDs about 50% of the clubs measured resistance the way he swing it, so combined with a total weight to high to start with, no wonder my back could not make it for more than 9-10 holes? and they could not locate the issue?

That actually means, those folks i went to for help, dont understand equipment OR swing tech, so what do they know?

 

2zap3saerq0a.png

 

it was THIS SIMPLE, and the reason i became a club fitter my self, im not the kind who gives up , but it took me many years, and several hundreds of volunteers i used for the most crazy set ups to be able to study what club specs actually does to the players swing. Thats whats behind my fitting concept VISUAL FITTING...we can SEE club specs when the player swing the club if we know what to look for and how to judge it, and ive been using that concept ever since, and always made it, its actually very simple....the basics for the concept is public in my DIY driver tune up.*

 

So, i might be crazy about excel, charts, and numbers, but i DONT use numbers during fitting, i go old school by "more or less", and "too little or too much"...navigating by the players own human scale, thats the scale used in play, so thats the one we should rely on during fitting too. The instruments we have belongs to the works shop to measure and duplicate specs of clubs already fitted without the use of any of those tools....except a launch monitor is we have one, but even that one can be left out, we can still make it better than most with access to a LM, even for drivers....

 

The more i get to know, the better i understand how little i actually knows, new doors is opening all the time, and to places ive never seen before, so i look at myself as a student of Golf club tech and will always be, the day i think im done, then im done and should leave this, but i cant stop testing and doing numbers to get more insight on the deeper levels we hardly ever debate, because we knows to little about it.

 

Take 2 parameters, TOTAL weight and shafts balance points wher both is of highly importance, but do we know how to deal with it? Try to ask a club fitter about the subjects Total weight and total weight progression for the iron set, or shafts in the bag in general....LOL, its a reason for why i lost most of my hearing too, ive heard enough BS...(the actual reason is my back ground as a Gun Smith, and that back ground is also the reason for why i dont "cut and glue", its simply not how things shall be done....

 

Just look at the simplest of them, total weight progression, and compare DG Descending with Constant and AMT and your eyes will be rotating....30 grams total weight difference from #3 to PW on descending, 40 grams for Constant, and 60 grams for AMT...how can all 3 be options for the same player? its very clear that they cant be, the weight pattern and difference is way to different for that, and when we add different balance points comparing KBS with PX, DG or Nippons, we can no longer look at uncut shaft weight alone, it dont tell the story we need to know, and many club fitters dont even know that DG descending is NOT a shaft we shall look at as 130 grams, but they do since thats the official specs...

 

The actual knowledge level is way to low in general among them who has this for a living, many hobbyists would have done way better, and most of you who are active on this forum is actually real "experts" compared to many of those who call them-self professionals, the difference is they charge you, its got nothing to do with knowledge level, so this business is a big disgrace if you ask about my honest opinion, but there is always exceptions to that, but way to long of a distance between them...,and im NOT the best, but my alias should ring a bell for those of you old enough......"things can only get better"....

  • Like 1

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @wkuo3 said:

> > Have anyone thought about how the irons will perform after the modification ?

> > How will the performance be effected on distance of each iron and distance gap between each of the iroan ?

> > I'd learned much from the discussion without having to experiment the process ( really don't have the time nor the resources to but down several sets of shafts to prove a point ).

> > Isn't the performance from the end of the modification is, what we're after ? Or are we just trying to make the numbers looking great ?

> > Has anyone actually done the process either with a personal set or with a player's set ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.

>

> I dont know how many who have done it, far from all return with a write up, but some does like in this tread.

> This is what most of us would call "a better player", former PGA swing trainer and -hdcp on the sunny side, but it takes a bit of a man to admit that there has always been room for improvement in the iron play, and this was the improvement always wanted....but nobody has ever showed this up as option to this issues ALL of us has.

> The short end often works pretty good if we have a set that fits us, while MID is OK, while the long end could absolutely be improved, and thats not only for high HDCP players, it goes for all of us, and if it worked out for a man like this, what makes you think you want make the same improvement, maybe even more, depending on how good a fit the short end is now.

> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1782086/my-moi-iron-build-thank-you-howard/p1

>

 

So I guess this man lol should chime in after this. I had this discussion with Howard during my build and tried to cover it in my recap of my experience, but standard or what I “fit” for never felt right. I fit at +1/4 but always used my standard length of 35.5 PW and progressing from there. I am about 2 months into my change and all I can say is the consistency in my longer clubs has never been better. The quality of the contact and the ease of swinging them has been fantastic. Howard has posted so many different scenarios of late that about any change a player feels they want to make has been put out there in great detail. My advice to anyone is lose the stigma of what standard is and don’t be afraid to try what you feel is right for you. Chances are if done with the knowledge of how to make the change it will benefit your game. I said in my recap that the game got easier with half my irons making this change. I firmly believe that. It feels simpler and more consistent and that’s what we are a looking for.

Cobra Aero LS 9 Fuji Evo IV 569 X

Honma TR21 15* VIZARD FP7 Stiff

Honma TR21 HY 18* VIZARD UT 7

Honma TR21 HY 21* VIZARD UT 8

Honma TR21X 5-11 VIZARD IBWF 100

HighToe MG3 54* VIZARD IB 120

HighToe MG3 58*/13 VIZARD IB 120

MackMade custom Slide MMT putter                         

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers, Howard! Your posts have been eye opening on many levels. Simplifying to feel and your driver fitting has paid dividends. You mentioned making each club your favorite club, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

 

I am looking forward to my first 3/8 or 10.9 mm type build this winter. I intend to take my time, and it will be fun to see the end result.

Have Fun - Ready Golf - Repair Divots/Marks - FORE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @LostArkitekt said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @LostArkitekt said:

> > > Also...would stepping 3/8" affect the tip trimming suggested by shaft manufacturer or butt trim measurement only?

> >

> > Yes and no. think of it like it was Parallel tips where the classic system is 4/8" tip trim and 4/8" between clubs, and 1/8" tip trim = 1 CPM. Then a 3/8" set up should have a tip trim of 7/16 both ways from out starting point if we did not except any change to flex.

> >

> > To understand what happens to flex, just look at this SW values, and think 1 SWP = 1 CPM

> > Since most sets is D2 as standard, D1 = 1 CPM stronger and D3 = 1CPM weaker

> > Slope is 0.5 SWP, between clubs, so to compensate we need half of 1/8" = 1/16" less tip trim progression

> > (4/8" tip trim progression become 7/16" - both ways from start point)

> > r9ibzky3dpio.png

> >

> > Example, a "standard" #9 iron as D2 as starting point gives a #3 iron of C9 or 3 CPM stronger than STD

> > Example, 2 "standard" #3 with SW D3.5 gives a #9 with D6.5 or 4.5 CPM softer than standard

>

> Well, I understand MOST of that, and my current irons are standard at D2 from 4 iron through 7 iron (i think) and D3 in 8 iron, 9 iron and PW. However, the clubs got longer, and I don't think they did any stepping or adding butt weights to offset the length. So, if I'm starting at 7-iron, what you are saying is that I should go in 7/16 increments of tip trim from there? Would I add tip/butt shaft weighting (based on balance point) to get the swingweight to equal D2 in 4-7, D3 in 8-LW? I'm wondering that if this is the standard, maybe making the 2 and 3 irons D1.5. I'm sure I won't know till I hit the clubs, etc., but I think I'll be light years ahead of where I am now.

 

If we started out from NEW uncut shafts, we could adjust or "offset" the standard tip trim chart to get flex slope more like it is standard by REDUCING tip trim on clubs that ends below D2, and ADD trip trim vs standard for clubs above D2

Since SWP and CPM is 1:1 the math is simple, but we also need to know how much tip trim thats needed on the actual shaft to gain or loose 1 CPM, most but far from all steel shafts respond with 1 CPM for each 1/8" of tip trim, while shafts like RIFLE FCM and KBS needs 3/16 of tip trim to gain 1 CPM.

 

That was for "equalizing" the difference that happens to flex, but we can take it further, and tweak flight pattern into a Flighted slope if we like. Then we "overdo" it, and start by the numbers needed to equalize flex, then we offset it further so shafts becomes 1 to 2 CPM softer for clubs longer than starting point, and 1 to 2 CPM stronger the other way.

 

Thats how RIFLE FCM Flighted is made, we alter tip trim so flex slope become 5.88 CPM between clubs vs 4.25, so RIFLE becomes Flighted when slope is altered with 1.63 CPM progressive softer or stiffer than standard from the start club.

 

If the set we have is already made and its all a modification, we dont really have this option, but there is a trick of the trade for that too, and thats TIP SHIMMING...We need only 1.00" as insert and most heads is 1.25", so we can shim up the tip by 0.25" as the most and that is for most shafts 2 CPM softer, so that #3 iron of C9 can be shimmed 2/8" and "soften it" 2 CPM while our target was 3, so we want make it 100%, but gets as close as we could get. We cant stretch it any further for sets already made without new shafts, and i would not use 7/8" as insert on the longest club, just to get 1 CPM softer and "right"., we should not push it that far, we say 1.00" is minimum insert and stick to that.

 

Here is a set up i only made once, and its a good one for those who wants a 3/8" set with a good MOI match on both heads and shafts (very good feel of balance from both), and the player can handle shafts like Dynamic Gold X100, so its a low priced shaft option we modify to become slightly Ascending WGT - 3/8" - MOI matched and FLIGHTED.

 

Those shafts dont officially exist from TT, but they do if we just know how we can mix them and tip trim them to get there, and here is the chart for that. For a set 3-PW ive added a #1 and #2 iron shaft, and removed the #4 and #8 shaft, the rest is tip trim (yes on Taper tips, no problem with that). Flex goes from SS2 (soft stepped 2 x) in the longest club to "strait in" or standard for the #9 iron. in this set, its really the #6 iron who is starting point for flex at SS1, so over all, this set should be considered as Soft stepped 1x, but with a Flighted flex slope.

 

l5mb3ccvvvbs.png

 

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the info Howard. However, I think this is "above my pay grade" (way more information than I really understand). Here is the gist of the scenario. I bought Mizuno JPX919 Forged from a recommendation of a "fitter" (use that term loosely because I now know he is a salesman). He also went off of numbers that I told him I hit when I was much younger. The length is right (feel great in that regard), but the shafts are TOO stiff, and the clubs feel extremely heavy and laborious for me to swing. Unfortunately, I was laid off after buying the clubs and now, can't afford to get really fitted out (although I'd keep the heads and try to make them work) for a complete set, so I found some old Ping ISI irons on ebay that were more upright, and I'm bought some graphite shafts that were on sale, and I'm trying to make a serviceable "back-up" set that I can play till I get my Mizunos fitted properly. So, while this information is awesome, and I love learning about anything...I don't understand all of it. But, I will definitely use it when I get the Mizunos fit for me. I'll go to someone who actually understands all of this better than I do.

 

Basically, I'm looking for the info needed to build a set starting with a 7-iron as +1.25 standard, and then stepping 3/8" from there. The shafts are parallel tip Fujikura/Cobra Pro Iron graphite shafts. My swing speed falls right at the low end of the Stiff Flex and the upper end of the Regular Flex, so I figured I'd get the Regular flex and trim some more off than suggested...to make them slightly stiffer. I've reamed the hosels of the PING ISI clubs to be .370, and I've weighed the heads...which are not stepped 7 grams between each...they vary (some down to 5.5g and others up to 8 grams).

 

That's where I'm at. Probably not going to do flighted shafts with this set or try to do MOI matching (again...more difficult than I really understand at this point), but I really appreciate all the info so far, and I've learned a lot just through this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, if you can tell me uncut shaft weight, uncut shaft length, the shafts balance point (one shaft is enough for parallels), and head weight, i can do the numbers for you, no problem. (ive looked into my shaft DB but dont have specs for that shaft.). Head weights are never 7 grams apart from production, they always vary plus minus, so we always need to adjust them anyway.

 

To measure balance point you only need a ruler, a vise and a knife, plus a piece of painters tape.

Put the shaft on one finger to find its approximate BP, and add a round of painters tape on that spot.

Put the knife in the vise, edge up, and put the shaft on the knife blade.

Move that shaft back and forth until it can rest in perfect balance.

Push the shaft down against the knife, so the edge of the knife set a mark in the painters tape (not the shaft, thats why we added the tape). Measure distance from the TIP AND BUTT (and check if sum is equal to total)

 

What work shop equipment do you have access to?

 

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @sford31 said:

> Posting here so I can find this thread easily in a few months when I get antsy over winter. Hopefully I can understand it.

 

Ask about what ever, there is no stupid questions here, we are far outside "the books", so what im writhing about here is NOT common knowledge among club fitters or club makers, only folks who has been deep diving into the Custom world of it.

 

For the record, 3/8" set ups is NOT my invention, this ideas comes from Tom Wishon, and it was done to make it easier to MOI match a set based on "standard" head weights as starting point. When we use the classic system of 4/8" between clubs, we end up with long irons with too much head weight, and head weight reduction is not really a DIY job, while if we modify to 3/8" we only need a few grams added to make them all to the same actual resistance (MOI).

 

Another benefit Tom did not mention or made a point of, is that we by going 3/8" can improve impact in the long end, and keep the short end "right", since going shorter on all makes the short end of the set too short and thats no good.

 

So far i have NOT seen any down sides by going this way, i can only see improvements if we plan it right and make it right, so like ive stated before, i dont think i ever will build a set to 4/8" between clubs again, i see no reasons for doing that, all i see is issues, the same issues we take care of by going 3/8" (or shorter)

 

PS!. not all players fit to play a MOI matched set where all clubs has the same resistance and for that reason shall be swung with the same amount of power. Some players has the SW system "in their bones", and is used to sets where we add power the longer we want to move the ball (longer clubs), and this players might have hard time to "slow down" when they use their longer clubs, but going 3/8" DONT mean we have to MOi match, we can combine 3/8" with the classic SW system, or a resistance slope in-between them so it becomes right for each player.

 

We are all different, with different needs, but going 3/8" dont prevent us from making a good fit on what ever specs we talk about on the club, so the way i see this, it gives us more options to make a good fit, and most can make the needed modifications them-self when we know where to go.

  • Like 1

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Howard, I actually read up on this from you or Tom a couple years back and made a set at 7/16"(as best i could) increments and did the poor mans MOI matching. I figured over 8 clubs, taking 1/16 off per club would give me a 1/2 inch shorter 3 iron. I think it worked out pretty well and I just wanna expand on that since I want some softer shafts. I think going to 3/8 would be even better. And i do believe I want to MOI match rather SW at least until I decide it's not for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t know if this helps, but I have found that going with 3/8” between clubs compresses the gapping in the shorter clubs. Not hard to tweak with loft adjustments, but something to look for.

I personally like this increment between clubs. Some golfers like the progressive swing weight it can produce.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @sford31 said:

> Thanks Howard, I actually read up on this from you or Tom a couple years back and made a set at 7/16"(as best i could) increments and did the poor mans MOI matching. I figured over 8 clubs, taking 1/16 off per club would give me a 1/2 inch shorter 3 iron. I think it worked out pretty well and I just wanna expand on that since I want some softer shafts. I think going to 3/8 would be even better. And i do believe I want to MOI match rather SW at least until I decide it's not for me.

 

1/16* is equal to 1.59 mm, so the fast and dirty would have been going 10.7 or 2.0 mm progressive shorter like the chart in page 1 shows, that set up dont demand any head weight tuning is it all started with the same SW as 4/8" set, but we only go "1 club shorter", in the long end....kind of "conservative", when we can stretch is way further, but a good option to try MOI matched for those who dont want to add lead tape. Mark butts, cut on the long side and use a belt grinder to target .

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

I just took the plunge on 3/8" iron gapping and cut 7/8" off my 4 iron before re-gripping it. If I like the way it feels and hits at the range this week, I will repeat the process going club by club down to my 9 iron.

 

For background, I am 6'1" but have short arms and a wrist-to-floor measurement of 40". I have been fit three times over the last 20 years, and each time came away with a recommendation of +1" on the irons. So currently, my 9 iron is 37" and they go up in .5" increments. I don't have any problem from a posture standpoint swinging my wedges (which are only +.5"), so I am not concerned that the 8 and 9 irons will end up too short after cutting 3/8" and 1/4", respectively, off of each (which truth be told, I will probably only do to satisfy my mild OCD on such things).

 

But my primary problem and weakness as a golfer (aside from chipping) is consistency of strike as I work my way up though the bag. I have spent the last few weeks trying to guesstimate choking up on shots to mimic a shorter shaft, and have been pleased with the results. No doubt, some of with the longer length long irons is mental, but I also think I will get a confidence boost from standing over a 4 iron thinking that I should make contact with it as consistently as I would with my 6 iron, and the same goes for standing over my 6 thinking I should hit it about as good as my 7 or 8 iron. So here I go. I will worry about lie angle and swing weight if those prove to be an issue, but I am not expecting it. I may also have to strengthen the lofts on the 4 and 5 if gapping requires. I doubt I will be shortening the other clubs enough to make much difference.

 

I am cautiously hoping this change will be as revelatory as cutting my driver from 45.5" to 44" a few years ago. I hover between a 1 and 2 handicap, but when I pull the 4 iron literally anything could happen. I am not expecting to go flag hunting all of a sudden with long irons, but just being able to count on a solid strike that tightens the dispersion both distance and direction would be nice.

Edited by bpdhlbrg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...

I have played Mizuno MP29’s with KBS Tour Nickel shafts (120g) for the past decade however when we tried MOI Weighting back then, our best guess ended up being the established MOI weighting difference b/n clubs as those are for clubs made with a 3/8” length change.  Only thing was, my original sets were 1/2” long with a 1/2” length change starting from the PW to 3 iron with SW’s from D6 changing 0.5 SW each club to D3 in the 3 & 4 iron as well as the 2h.  After I’ve discovered from the much updated and revised information as provided within these forums, it would appear that original MP29 set was apparently out of wack as the SW value would have been different (IIRC- 1.3 SW p/in divided by 2 = 0.65 SW for every 0.5” change between each club -vs- what conveniently turns out to be 0.5 SW change (For best MOI Weighting) for every 3/8” club change). 
 

And although I intend on making such changes with my MP29’s, I recently lost my 7 iron and I bought a replacement MP68 7 iron with KBS Stiff Shafts, but it was standard length which puts it at about the same length as my 8 iron in that set. Being that I was between a rock and a hard place with this set, I ended up buying a newly created set made with MP221’s which were 1 inch over (long) however the shafts are KBS XS (130gram) FST Shafts.  I tried them out after taping each of grips to the length my standard set would normally be at for the PW and then increased 3/8” from there, but the combination of increased weight with using Mid Sized Grips for a first time left me with a pit in my stomach feeling!  I mean I could hit them well, but the feel was heavy, for sure.  I did notice the ball going further that I don’t necessarily attribute to the 1 degree stronger loft angle in the MP221’s vs the MP29’s.  And because of this coupled with the reduced dispersion coming from the XS Shafts, I would like to, at the least, set up the MOI as properly as I can using lead tape.  Only then will I do more lead tape to Soft-step to see if that would be preferable in the 5-3 irons.
 

I spent time going back and forth between my old set and this “new” set and determined the Mid Size grips are not for me.  So I took out my calipers and measured 2” down on each shaft of my MP29’s and realized that many grips were different?  So I ultimately decided on a width that was ideal and tried my best to match that when I re-gripped the shafts.  Before that, however, I had to decide how long and in what increments should I cut the shafts.  I know what the shortest length I comfortable with at 35 7/8” for the 50,54,58 and going up 3/8” from there left about an inch shorter at the 3 iron ( 38 7/8” vs 39 3/4” ).  So I did my best to make a golf club workstation using a 60 degree wedge cut from a 4x4 lumber mounted on a table and measured and marked from there on the sideboard and then placed a mm/1/32 measuring stick and clamped it down on the table to get detailed measurements from 35” and up!  I used tape to determine where the “line” on the shaft was to be cut on and then used an oil based Pen to “paint” a wide line over the edge of the tape, let dry, remove tape to reveal the line making it easier to position the pipe cutter for an exact cut.  2 Wraps plus some 2 sided tape later and some 0.600 Golf Pride Velvet Cord installed with an air compressor then using a laser to align the grips with the leading edge of each club and now I’m ready for fine tuning!  I’m just not certain if the jump to 130g is for me, but I’m going to try to get the MOI right before I go to a lighter shaft, like maybe 125g KBS $Taper or perhaps hard stepping 120g Tours or maybe even combining 125s from 6 iron down with 120’s hardstepped for the 5 to 3 iron?
 

Being that I would smoke my MP29-6 iron with a D4 SW at 38.25” with KBS 120g S Shaft, how do figure what I should be gauging the MOI to be on these heavier 130g XS shafts?  Should I shoot for the same as I had on the 120 g KBS Tour MP-29’s (with the MP221’s now gapped using 3/8” the 6 iron is now at 37 6/8” with a SW of D3, should I add weight to make it D4,  and shoot for D4.5 in the 7 at 37 3/8”  and so on?) or because of Diff in shaft weight, should I figure it another way, perhaps adding more weight to the heads?  Any input on this would be greatly appreciated!

Edited by GopherX
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Reporting back on this from a little over a year ago. After I cut the 4 iron down I took it to the range and the first few swings were really wonky. So I started by adding lead tape across the back until it felt right, in line with what is suggested by the thread pinned to the top of this forum. Anyhow, it took some dialing in but I ended up with about half as much tape as I originally thought was needed. At that point the club felt great, and I was making clean contact out of the center. However, despite making a good swing and crisp contact, my shots didn't have enough spin to stay airborne. After similar results across a few more range sessions I ended up taking the 4 iron out of the bag entirely and subbed in a ChipR for the rest of the year. After this experiment, I was in no rush to repeat the process with the rest of my irons.

 

Fast forward to the start of the summer. I took the ChipR out and put the 4 iron back in my bag. My results on the range were the same. I'd hit it solid, watch it take off, and then drop out of the sky like a wounded bird. But, I have had occasion to pull this club about a dozen times from the fairway over the course of the summer, and every single time I have flushed a shot that spun enough to reach a normal apex and stop on the green. I haven't missed yet with it on the course, and the distance still outpaces my 5 iron that currently is almost half an inch longer (and, being P790s, only a few degrees more loft).

 

So, I have come to the conclusion that the flightless shots on the range have more to do with the crappy rangers I'm hitting, and that problem is solved when hitting a premium ball on the course. Naturally, I have once again developed the itch to continue the experiment. Since it was time to re-grip my 8 iron, I just cut 3/8" off of the butt end before putting the new grip on. I look forward to getting that dialed in, but I am not expecting to need much, if any, lead tape. It's safe to say I have crossed the Rubicon and will soon be cutting the rest of them down. Just not tonight.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, bpdhlbrg said:

Reporting back on this from a little over a year ago. After I cut the 4 iron down I took it to the range and the first few swings were really wonky. So I started by adding lead tape across the back until it felt right, in line with what is suggested by the thread pinned to the top of this forum. Anyhow, it took some dialing in but I ended up with about half as much tape as I originally thought was needed. At that point the club felt great, and I was making clean contact out of the center. However, despite making a good swing and crisp contact, my shots didn't have enough spin to stay airborne. After similar results across a few more range sessions I ended up taking the 4 iron out of the bag entirely and subbed in a ChipR for the rest of the year. After this experiment, I was in no rush to repeat the process with the rest of my irons.

 

Fast forward to the start of the summer. I took the ChipR out and put the 4 iron back in my bag. My results on the range were the same. I'd hit it solid, watch it take off, and then drop out of the sky like a wounded bird. But, I have had occasion to pull this club about a dozen times from the fairway over the course of the summer, and every single time I have flushed a shot that spun enough to reach a normal apex and stop on the green. I haven't missed yet with it on the course, and the distance still outpaces my 5 iron that currently is almost half an inch longer (and, being P790s, only a few degrees more loft).

 

So, I have come to the conclusion that the flightless shots on the range have more to do with the crappy rangers I'm hitting, and that problem is solved when hitting a premium ball on the course. Naturally, I have once again developed the itch to continue the experiment. Since it was time to re-grip my 8 iron, I just cut 3/8" off of the butt end before putting the new grip on. I look forward to getting that dialed in, but I am not expecting to need much, if any, lead tape. It's safe to say I have crossed the Rubicon and will soon be cutting the rest of them down. Just not tonight.


Why did you cut the #8 iron 3/8" shorter?

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:


Why did you cut the #8 iron 3/8" shorter?

Math is not my strong suit, but I used the table below to end up at 3/8" stepping from 9 through 4 iron. Let me know if I've made a mistake somewhere.

 

Club  >  Starting Length  >  Amount to Remove  >  Finish Length

9i  >  37"         >  -1/4"   >  36 3/4"

8i  >  37 1/2 "  >  -3/8"  >  37 1/8"

7i  >  38"         >  -1/2"   >  37 1/2"

6i  >  38 1/2"   >  -5/8"  >  37 7/8"

5i  >  39"         >  -3/4"  >  38 1/4"

4i  >  39 1/2"   >  -7/8"  >  38 5/8"

 

*Keep in mind, my irons were 1" over standard length to begin with. But I feel like I don't really need all of that extra inch, and this came about because I feel like the extra inch really hurts me in the mid/long irons. So I am in part drawn to the 3/8" stepping because it brings those clubs at the top of my bag a little closer to standard length. Taking 3/8" off the 8 iron really just brings it to 5/8" longer than standard.

Edited by bpdhlbrg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, bpdhlbrg said:

Math is not my strong suit, but I used the table below to end up at 3/8" stepping from 9 through 4 iron. Let me know if I've made a mistake somewhere.

 

Club  >  Starting Length  >  Amount to Remove  >  Finish Length

9i  >  37"         >  -1/4"   >  36 3/4"

8i  >  37 1/2 "  >  -3/8"  >  37 1/8"

7i  >  38"         >  -1/2"   >  37 1/2"

6i  >  38 1/2"   >  -5/8"  >  37 7/8"

5i  >  39"         >  -3/4"  >  38 1/4"

4i  >  39 1/2"   >  -7/8"  >  38 5/8"

 

*Keep in mind, my irons were 1" over standard length to begin with. But I feel like I don't really need all of that extra inch, and this came about because I feel like the extra inch really hurts me in the mid/long irons. So I am in part drawn to the 3/8" stepping because it brings those clubs at the top of my bag a little closer to standard length. Taking 3/8" off the 8 iron really just brings it to 5/8" longer than standard.


I did not notice that, so i had to ask, it made no sence to go shorter on the #8 iron, so the set you have now is really with a starting point from the #9, who still is + 0.75" vs std....

Numbers looks OK if thats how you want it

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just back from my first range session since cutting them all down and I am pleased with the early results. After trimming to 3/8" steps and re-gripping, I used joostin's swing weight calculator spreadsheet (linked below) as a guide to weighting the heads so I would be at D2 from 9i through 4i. Also checked my wedges to see they were each at D5, except for the LW, so I added some lead to that one as well. Hybrid, 3W and D were all in the C8-9 range, and I left them there for the time being.

 

I wasn't on a monitor, but just eyeballing it seemed as if my distance dispersion tightened up a bit, which I guess is to be expected when you're not hitting it all over the face. 6-5-4 were each a hair shorter on the max carries, but the consistency was well worth that trade off.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
On 9/1/2019 at 2:02 AM, Howard_Jones said:

3/8" has become kind of a "Custom standard", but we have other options too, a few more conservative and closer to the classic 4/8", and others that shorter into the long end vs 3/8". It all depend on how short we want the long end to be vs the short. Starting point is #9 and a set thats built to 4/8" between clubs and flat SW value, then this chart can be used directly for butt cut and head weight replacement needed. ALL to "Poor mans MOI match" or 1.33 SWP pr inch.

 

The absolute easiest and fastest way to a "MOI matched set", is a progressive butt cut of 2.0 mm, starting cutting from the #8 as the first to cut. This butt cut, DONT need head weight adjustment, a flat SW set, becomes 1.1 SWP pr inch by butt cut only, so if you order a new OEM set where specs fits you for the #9, and order the set with grips loose in the box, then its butt cut and on with the grips, DONE and play ready....

 

That set up becomes 10.7 mm between clubs. (12.7 mm or 0.5" is std) The longest club the #3 iron becomes "1 iron shorter" or like a standard #4, so we dont get much advantage on play length, but got "1 club shorter in", when that #3 iron comes to play, AND a "Free MOI Match" by butt cut only.

 

Here is 5 DIY options, all possible to make with #9 as starting point, and if the set is plus 0.5" now, thats fine, only play length numbers thats off with 0.5" all the way then. Butt cut and head weight replacement becomes the same for all head #.

 

qs98moqgusug.png

 

Measure twice, mark correct, cut on "the long side" of the cut mark, (pipe cutters is good on steel shafts), grind butt down to target.

 

 

Hey @Howard_Jones! Sorry to revive an old thread... Just wanted to clarify something:

When we are talking about head weight adjustments between irons in your spec sheet - we are assuming the stock heads are 7gm's apart, correct?

To expound further, I'm looking into a 3/8" build - strictly by the chart for now. If I use my 9 iron as the "standard" which has a head weight of 284gms, when I progress to build the 8 iron (using the 3/8's chart) - I would be looking for 277.7gm (284gm - 7gm + .07gm) for finished head weight, right? 

Subsequently, when building the PW, I would be looking for 294.4 gms - right? (284gm 9 iron head + 7gm PW Slope+3.4gm 3/8's adjustment)

 

I know that there should be experimentation room to make sure strike quality is good - I'm just strictly speaking hypothetically and want to make sure my thought process is correct. 

Thanks!

Rotate the following:

Titliest TSR2 10* (@C1) Ventus TR Black 6X 

Titliest TSR2 16.5* (@A1) Fuji Speeder 8.3TS X

Titliest TSR2 21* (@A1) Fuji Atmos Blue 8X

Titliest 818H2 21* (@B3) Fuji Atmos Black 9X

Srixon ZXU 18*, ZX5 3-4, ZX7 5-PW

C-taper 125 S+ PVD Black, BBFCO "Black Ice Ice Ferrule", Pure DTX Purple Std +4 wraps

Cleveland RTX6 Raw 50*Mid Ctaper 130X, 54* Full S400 Onyx, 58* Low S400 Onyx

Mizzy MCraft VI 36.5" SS Pistol 1.0

Titliest PV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

 

 

Hey @Howard_Jones! Sorry to revive an old thread... Just wanted to clarify something:

When we are talking about head weight adjustments between irons in your spec sheet - we are assuming the stock heads are 7gm's apart, correct?

To expound further, I'm looking into a 3/8" build - strictly by the chart for now. If I use my 9 iron as the "standard" which has a head weight of 284gms, when I progress to build the 8 iron (using the 3/8's chart) - I would be looking for 277.7gm (284gm - 7gm + .07gm) for finished head weight, right? 

Subsequently, when building the PW, I would be looking for 294.4 gms - right? (284gm 9 iron head + 7gm PW Slope+3.4gm 3/8's adjustment)

 

I know that there should be experimentation room to make sure strike quality is good - I'm just strictly speaking hypothetically and want to make sure my thought process is correct. 

Thanks!



if #9 is starting point, use this chart

image.jpeg.3034805490799c71a324bd095e542110.jpeg

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:



if #9 is starting point, use this chart

image.jpeg.3034805490799c71a324bd095e542110.jpeg

Thanks Howard - I was using the chart for my question. 
 

I guess I’ll ask another way - all of the head weight adjustments in the chart are based off of 7gm weight differences between irons, right? 
 

 

Another way to ask it (which I think is wrong) is I’m taking the #9 iron head weight - 284gm and adding only .7gm to get to a 284.7gm 8 iron?

Edited by Primo1868
Clarification

Rotate the following:

Titliest TSR2 10* (@C1) Ventus TR Black 6X 

Titliest TSR2 16.5* (@A1) Fuji Speeder 8.3TS X

Titliest TSR2 21* (@A1) Fuji Atmos Blue 8X

Titliest 818H2 21* (@B3) Fuji Atmos Black 9X

Srixon ZXU 18*, ZX5 3-4, ZX7 5-PW

C-taper 125 S+ PVD Black, BBFCO "Black Ice Ice Ferrule", Pure DTX Purple Std +4 wraps

Cleveland RTX6 Raw 50*Mid Ctaper 130X, 54* Full S400 Onyx, 58* Low S400 Onyx

Mizzy MCraft VI 36.5" SS Pistol 1.0

Titliest PV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Primo1868 said:

Thanks Howard - I was using the chart for my question. 
 

I guess I’ll ask another way - all of the head weight adjustments in the chart are based off of 7gm weight differences between irons, right? 
 

 

Another way to ask it (which I think is wrong) is I’m taking the #9 iron head weight - 284gm and adding only .7gm to get to a 284.7gm 8 iron?


All numbers is relative, and based on a set where all clubs have the same SW value, in theory, with 7 grams steps on head wgt. 

To move from the SW system who has progressive resistance when we go longer (flat SW value), this is the offset numbers for weight to use to get there. 

So if your #8 irons head wgt now is 284 grams, we must add 0.7 and it becomes 284.7. If that head is 280 now, new head wgt, will be 280.7, since its all RELATIVE vs what ever we have now, assumed SW values NOW is the same for all, no matter what that SW value is, as long as all clubs has the same SW value. 

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:


All numbers is relative, and based on a set where all clubs have the same SW value, in theory, with 7 grams steps on head wgt. 

To move from the SW system who has progressive resistance when we go longer (flat SW value), this is the offset numbers for weight to use to get there. 

So if your #8 irons head wgt now is 284 grams, we must add 0.7 and it becomes 284.7. If that head is 280 now, new head wgt, will be 280.7, since its all RELATIVE vs what ever we have now, assumed SW values NOW is the same for all, no matter what that SW value is, as long as all clubs has the same SW value. 


Thank you! Understood loud and clear!

  • Like 1

Rotate the following:

Titliest TSR2 10* (@C1) Ventus TR Black 6X 

Titliest TSR2 16.5* (@A1) Fuji Speeder 8.3TS X

Titliest TSR2 21* (@A1) Fuji Atmos Blue 8X

Titliest 818H2 21* (@B3) Fuji Atmos Black 9X

Srixon ZXU 18*, ZX5 3-4, ZX7 5-PW

C-taper 125 S+ PVD Black, BBFCO "Black Ice Ice Ferrule", Pure DTX Purple Std +4 wraps

Cleveland RTX6 Raw 50*Mid Ctaper 130X, 54* Full S400 Onyx, 58* Low S400 Onyx

Mizzy MCraft VI 36.5" SS Pistol 1.0

Titliest PV1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 9 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...