Jump to content

Kuchar in the bunker


Callyboy

Recommended Posts

> @bladehunter said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest _**and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it.**_ Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

> > > > >

> > > > > Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

> > > >

> > > > Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

> > > >

> > > > I already addressed that in what I said.

> > > >

> > > > That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

> > > >

> > > > Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

> > > >

> > > > You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

> > >

> > > I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

> > >

> > > We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

> >

> > Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. **He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same.** He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. **He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."**

> >

> > Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

> >

> > That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

>

> Not in this instance. No.

>

> If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

 

I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

 

"Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

 

Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’veour lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loosearound your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

> > > > >

> > > > > You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

> > > >

> > > > We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

> > >

> > > Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. **He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same.** He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. **He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."**

> > >

> > > Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

> > >

> > > That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

> >

> > Not in this instance. No.

> >

> > If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

>

> I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

>

> "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

>

> Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

 

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest _**and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it.**_ Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

> > > > >

> > > > > I already addressed that in what I said.

> > > > >

> > > > > That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

> > > > >

> > > > > You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

> > > >

> > > > We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

> > >

> > > Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. **He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same.** He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. **He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."**

> > >

> > > Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

> > >

> > > That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

> >

> > Not in this instance. No.

> >

> > If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

>

> I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

>

> "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

>

> Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

 

At no point have I said that you cannot improve your lie by moving things that are touching the ball. I simply said this in this case that was not applicable.

 

Improving your lie with movement of a growing item , natural item , integral boundary etc has zero to do with sand or pebbles.

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

C'mon, Kuch is there for you man, he is exploiting the system so you can shoot your 95.

This target on his back is stupid.. I hazard to guess how many yesterday, tomorrow or this weekend will adhere to such a narrow interpretation of all golf rules...

Somebody has to challenge it or it will remain the same. He did nothing wrong, now buy something off the BST and feel instantly better about yourself...

 

With love,

Mr. Grumpy

Honma TR20 Vizard RED S

Callaway Fusion 3 Wood Recoil S

PXG 6-Gap TT Elevate S

Vokey SM8 50, 54, 58

Scotty Phantom X 5.5

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> C'mon, Kuch is there for you man, he is exploiting the system so you can shoot your 95.

> This target on his back is stupid.. **I hazard** to guess how many yesterday, tomorrow or this weekend will adhere to such a narrow interpretation of all golf rules...

> Somebody has to challenge it or it will remain the same. He did nothing wrong, now buy something off the BST and feel instantly better about yourself...

>

> With love,

> Mr. Grumpy

 

I see what you did there.

Driver: TaylorMade SIM 8* (standard setting) with MCA Tensei AV Raw Orange 75TX at 44.5"
3W: TaylorMade M5 15* (standard setting) with Oban Devotion 8 O5 at 42"
Hybrid: PXG Gen 2 0317X 19* (standard setting) with Oban Kiyoshi Purple Hybrid O5 at 39.5"
4i-9i: Callaway '18 Apex MB's with KBS C-Taper 130X at 1/4" long
46: Callaway JAWS MD5 10S
50: Callaway JAWS MD5 10S
54: Callaway JAWS MD5 8C
58: Callaway JAWS MD5 8W
Putter: Kari Lajosi Custom DD201WB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> @bladehunter said:

> I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

 

 

 

Kuch's lie basically went from this...

 

unw4qjd56yd6.png

 

...to this

 

hbwchzlb5vxr.png

 

And for this magic trick, all he needed was a self-serving reading of the rules and a feckless rules official.

 

Kuch should pack a hand trowel in his bag to make these rules interpretations easier to implement in the future. Something like this:

zwnyreew1gjc.png

He should write "Kuch" on it in permanent ink so folks will know it's his.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

×
×
  • Create New...