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stickney "ballflight" article confusing me


extrastiff

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i learned the ball starts down the path of the swing, and curves in the direction of the face angle if no gear effect. the article makes it seem other wise as far as i can tell, but i have not been very intelligent lately.. . i googled it just to make sure what i thought was a generally held assumption. "The ball will launch in the direction the clubhead is moving (directly at the target), then curve slightly right due to the small amount of left-to-right sidespin caused by the open clubface." (https://golf-info-guide.com/golf-tips/the-golf-swing/what-makes-the-golf-ball-curve/)

 

 

here is one quote that makes me think stickney is suggesting otherwise. .

"If you hit the ball and it starts correctly but curves too much from right to left then your path is to blame." (http://www.golfwrx.com/573696/stickney-correctly-auditing-your-ballflight-without-technology/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Featured_Center_Top&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=main)

Am i being unintelligent again, or is the article suggesting that the ball starts in direction of face angle, and the launch angle has little to do with the path angle?

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Face determines start line, path determines curve.

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/the-ball-flight-laws/

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I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

 

Now whether Tom Stickney is describing the 1960's conventional wisdom versus or the early 2000's empirically backed up version, I don't know. But there's a right way and a wrong way to describe ball flight cause and effect you'll see both of them out there in roughly equal measure!

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Face determines about 70% of the starting line, and the curve is path relative to the face. The old PGA Teaching manual had it wrong, FOREVER.

 

An easier way to visualize it is to think of dropping a ball into a table which is angled 45 degrees. If the ball started on the path, the ball would bounce straight up, and we know intuitively that the ball will not bounce straight up, but generally as a "reflection" off the table (*it's not a perfect reflection).

 

The fact that my example has the ball moving vs the table moving is irrelevant when it comes to the collision.

 

Or even better, think of it this way: If you come down steep with a wedge, say, -6 or 7 degrees downward angle of attack,with the ball on the ground, does the ball *start* DOWN?? Of course not, the ball starts up because of the loft of the club. If the club has 45* loft at impact, it will have a launch angle of somewhere around 37 or 38 degrees. No difference in the collision between loft or of the face angle.

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> @"North Butte" said:

> I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

 

The 1968 book "Search for a Perfect Swing" even knew that initial starting direction was mostly due to the face angle. They didn't need trackman, just some common sense and high speed film!

 

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When he says the path is to blame, he means that the path was poor and forced you to react and Misalign the face to hit it on target.

 

e.g. On a path too far right the brain will react and flip the face closed to avoid a block.

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Best way to visualize it IMO, is think about the exact moment of impact (zero spin). Where the club face points is where the ball will start as you are making contact at that angle with the ball. Your swing path determines in those microseconds how the ball travels vertically (backspin) and horizontally (sidespin) on the club face. Once the ball is moving spin increases and is not instant so that is where the curve comes from.

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And if you want to get more into the weeds.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
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The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

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thanks all for the quick, gentle replies

i think thats the last bit of $%#@ that a couple "pga certified" teaching pros taught me incorrectly as recently as 6 months ago. excited to go try out the new understanding.

Radspeed 8, 13.5, 17.5/hzrdusgreentx                                                           Radspeed 21/tz4100m5+
Utility one length 3,4 iron/mmt105tx
                                                              Forged one length 6-9/x100 wedge onyx

vokey 46*8, 54*8, 62*8/s400 wedge onyx                                                    phantom x5/stabilitytour

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> @larrybud said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

>

> The 1968 book "Search for a Perfect Swing" even knew that initial starting direction was mostly due to the face angle. They didn't need trackman, just some common sense and high speed film!

>

 

Maybe that's why I've never been able to grok the details of the supposedly "new" Trackman-inspired ball flight principles. The only things I knew back in the day were what I read in Cochran and Stobbs. Then my teaching pro showed me all the "new" stuff about five years ago and it all seemed to be saying the same as SftPS was saying way back when.

 

I figured it had all gotten muddled in my head. Maybe the muddle was simple agreement between what I thought of as "old" and "new".

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> @extrastiff said:

> thanks all for the quick, gentle replies

> i think thats the last bit of $%#@ that a couple "pga certified" teaching pros taught me incorrectly as recently as 6 months ago. excited to go try out the new understanding.

 

You're not alone. I was the victim of incorrect teaching 15-20 years ago. Really screwed me up thinking ball started in the direction of the path. I developed the biggest push block you've ever seen because of the misunderstanding. Only until I asked my teacher about something specific, and he said "I don't know" did I know that I had to figure it out myself.

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> @"North Butte" said:

> > @larrybud said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

> >

> > The 1968 book "Search for a Perfect Swing" even knew that initial starting direction was mostly due to the face angle. They didn't need trackman, just some common sense and high speed film!

> >

>

> Maybe that's why I've never been able to grok the details of the supposedly "new" Trackman-inspired ball flight principles. The only things I knew back in the day were what I read in Cochran and Stobbs. Then my teaching pro showed me all the "new" stuff about five years ago and it all seemed to be saying the same as SftPS was saying way back when.

>

> I figured it had all gotten muddled in my head. Maybe the muddle was simple agreement between what I thought of as "old" and "new".

 

"old" was ball starts on path, because that's what the PGA Teaching manual said. "new" is ball starts mostly due to face angle.

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> @glk said:

> And if you want to get more into the weeds.

 

Yeah, except anybody thinking this is over the top just because of the arc that this guy drew completely ignores perspective of the camera, let alone d plane. The camera in that example is just about at his eye-line.

 

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Yeah, good luck in the woods pointing your clubface at a tree then "starting" the ball right of the tree with a big in-to-out swing. I figured out maybe 2 months into my golfing life that if you point the clubface at the tree, the ball will start out toward the tree no matter how much you try to swing out or in. How it do anything but?

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> @larrybud said:

> > @extrastiff said:

> > thanks all for the quick, gentle replies

> > i think thats the last bit of $%#@ that a couple "pga certified" teaching pros taught me incorrectly as recently as 6 months ago. excited to go try out the new understanding.

>

> You're not alone. I was the victim of incorrect teaching 15-20 years ago. Really screwed me up thinking ball started in the direction of the path. I developed the biggest push block you've ever seen because of the misunderstanding. Only until I asked my teacher about something specific, and he said "I don't know" did I know that I had to figure it out myself.

 

immediately went to the course and range, hit the ball the way its supposed to. exciting stuff. this golf stuff is pretty simple when your doing it right.

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> @"North Butte" said:

> I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

>

> Now whether Tom Stickney is describing the 1960's conventional wisdom versus or the early 2000's empirically backed up version, I don't know. But there's a right way and a wrong way to describe ball flight cause and effect you'll see both of them out there in roughly equal measure!

 

Byron Nelson said in his book "Shape your swing the Modern Way" that you draw the ball with an open face. I read this years ago before Trackman, and it confused me, then I went and tried it and I got it. Face needs to be open to the target to hit a draw, so it starts right and draws back.

The good players understood the physics. Some may have explained it wrong, because real and feel aren't always the same, but most knew what was going on.

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> @dlygrisse said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

> >

> > Now whether Tom Stickney is describing the 1960's conventional wisdom versus or the early 2000's empirically backed up version, I don't know. But there's a right way and a wrong way to describe ball flight cause and effect you'll see both of them out there in roughly equal measure!

>

> Byron Nelson said in his book "Shape your swing the Modern Way" that you draw the ball with an open face. I read this years ago before Trackman, and it confused me, then I went and tried it and I got it. Face needs to be open to the target to hit a draw, so it starts right and draws back.

> The good players understood the physics. Some may have explained it wrong, because real and feel aren't always the same, but most knew what was going on.

 

see but thats the thing. . . both of the pros that told me this, three people if u include the former mini tour player, i got the chance to play with. it was before i could really play, but lets just say they beat me :(

i have been playing really well for about a year now, but i go for square angles. only rarely tried marginal shaping, with like a %50 percent success rate. Didnt cost me too many strokes to avoid shaping. my point is u probably be surprised how many "good" players are running around with improper understanding of the physics. maybe they didnt factor in the dynamic change.

A chart of the angle interactions and resulting flights for each club would be pretty sweet.

 

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> @Three_Jack said:

> Trackman did I study(can't find it), but the the less amount of loft, the more influence the face as on starting direction. For driver, it's about 85% and for wedges it's more like 60%.

>

>

 

The statement quoted is correct. But a better way to look at it is that the larger the difference between FA and path, the smaller the percentage # is for FA influence vs path. It isn't the loft exactly, but the fact that the FA for a wedge (mostly up) is so much different (vs path) as opposed to a low lofted driver.

 

dave

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> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Three_Jack said:

> > Trackman did I study(can't find it), but the the less amount of loft, the more influence the face as on starting direction. For driver, it's about 85% and for wedges it's more like 60%.

> >

> >

>

> The statement quoted is correct. But a better way to look at it is that the larger the difference between FA and path, the smaller the percentage # is for FA influence vs path. It isn't the loft exactly, but the fact that the FA for a wedge (mostly up) is so much different (vs path) as opposed to a low lofted driver.

>

> dave

 

Once you understand then you have to learn what it really means to you visually. What looks open to you may look square to another person, which is where I think a lot of the confusion comes from. Knowing the facts is a nice starting point, but digging it out of the dirt is where you learn to make it work. It might just take a bit longer to figure it out if it is explained wrong.

 

BTW, just guessing here, but I would guess that path is 85% of controlling direction out of a bunker shot where you contact the sand before the ball. Just the opposite of a driver. But that's just me from my own experience, does anyone have data on this?

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> @larrybud said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @larrybud said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > I have never cared enough to bother to learn all the details but I do know that the universally 100% accepted "ball flight laws" from the mid-20th-century up until the advent of Trackman ® were, to put it bluntly, wrong.

> > >

> > > The 1968 book "Search for a Perfect Swing" even knew that initial starting direction was mostly due to the face angle. They didn't need trackman, just some common sense and high speed film!

> > >

> >

> > Maybe that's why I've never been able to grok the details of the supposedly "new" Trackman-inspired ball flight principles. The only things I knew back in the day were what I read in Cochran and Stobbs. Then my teaching pro showed me all the "new" stuff about five years ago and it all seemed to be saying the same as SftPS was saying way back when.

> >

> > I figured it had all gotten muddled in my head. Maybe the muddle was simple agreement between what I thought of as "old" and "new".

>

> "old" was ball starts on path, because that's what the PGA Teaching manual said. "new" is ball starts mostly due to face angle.

 

 

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Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

 

There is nothing wrong with obsessing about "D Plane", if that's your thing, but knowing it won't lower your scores.

 

Next topic for the obsessed , should I change my stroke if I buy a putter with an insert?

 

Steve

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> @juststeve said:

> Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

 

This says it for me. Nothing in my experience indicates that the "new" ball flight rules are correct. I continue to follow the "old" Nicklaus method, which seems to work.

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> @juststeve said:

> Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

>

> There is nothing wrong with obsessing about "D Plane", if that's your thing, but knowing it won't lower your scores.

>

> Next topic for the obsessed , should I change my stroke if I buy a putter with an insert?

>

> Steve

 

It works cause it sets up for the real ball flight rules - in your example a face square to target line and path just to the right provides a push draw when the face is slightly open to the target at impact. Where it falls apart is in figuring out when you set up for that draw and it starts at the target with a draw - you’d think you didn’t swing far enough out to the right so you adjust and swing more out to the right and then you hit the big over draw on the next swing (or a block). And knowing d plane doesn’t guarantee a good swing but again it helps understand why a particular swing produced it’s result - certainly more important if one is an instructor but not useless to a typical golfer - heck we’ve got people on this site that think, or thought, that you hit down to pinch the ball against the ground for compression.

 

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Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

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> @MountainGoat said:

> > @juststeve said:

> > Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

>

> This says it for me. Nothing in my experience indicates that the "new" ball flight rules are correct. I continue to follow the "old" Nicklaus method, which seems to work.

 

Setup and impact are two very different things. There’s no new and old. There is just factual info. Its stating what happens at impact. Literally has nothing to do with how to setup to hit the shot.

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> @iteachgolf said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @juststeve said:

> > > Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

> >

> > This says it for me. Nothing in my experience indicates that the "new" ball flight rules are correct. I continue to follow the "old" Nicklaus method, which seems to work.

>

> Setup and impact are two very different things. There’s no new and old. There is just factual info. Its stating what happens at impact. Literally has nothing to do with how to setup to hit the shot.

 

I know, right. That's why they are called the "ball flight laws" not the "shot making laws"!

 

I trust the heck out Jack Nicklaus to tell me how to fade a long iron or win a major. But when it comes to what happens physically during the millisecond around impact, I'll trust the 6 hcp geek with a Trackman and high speed video camera.

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Another misconception: the ball has x% backspin and y% sidespin. There can only be one spin axis; the amount that the spin axis is tilted relative to the horizontal axis (i.e., the axis parallel with the ground) determines the direction and amount of the curvature in the ball flight.

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> @iteachgolf said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @juststeve said:

> > > Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

> >

> > This says it for me. Nothing in my experience indicates that the "new" ball flight rules are correct. I continue to follow the "old" Nicklaus method, which seems to work.

>

> Setup and impact are two very different things. There’s no new and old. There is just factual info. Its stating what happens at impact. Literally has nothing to do with how to setup to hit the shot.

 

This may be the answer to the question. Perhaps I and many others have

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> @juststeve said:

> Although this topic seems to be endlessly fascinating to a lot of people it has little to do with actually playing golf well. For most of the 20th century the best players in the world played assuming that path dictated the starting direction of the shot, and the club face dictated how the ball would curve. Jack Nicklaus won 18 major championships lining up where he wanted the all to start and pointing the face where he wanted the ball to finish. So did almost all of the greats of his era. Whether of not the method was confirmed by Trackman, it worked and still works today. Why does the old method still work? Someone will have to explain that to me because I don't know. It just works.

>

> There is nothing wrong with obsessing about "D Plane", if that's your thing, but knowing it won't lower your scores.

>

> Next topic for the obsessed , should I change my stroke if I buy a putter with an insert?

>

> Steve

 

Because the human brain is amazing.

 

So the old players wanted to hit a draw or fade and angled the bodies one way and the club another sure, but what happens if we could see those swings with today slo-mo technology? I would think it would show a club path and face path that mimic what today's data shows us. Now how did this happen if they were set up for something else? The brain knew what they wanted for a shot the curve and target and makes all the millions of little adjustments that we can't see in real time because that will get us the result we subconsciously wanted.

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      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

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