Callaway Epic Forged; The Ball Speed Is Frightening

[wfrogge1]

> @rgk5 said:

> Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> Average:

> Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> Best

> Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

>

> All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> Interesting to say the least.

 

What was the spin on that 7 iron? 3000 RPM?

[rgk5]

> @wfrogge1 said:

> > @rgk5 said:

> > Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> > Average:

> > Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> > Best

> > Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

> >

> > All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> > Interesting to say the least.

>

> What was the spin on that 7 iron? 3000 RPM?

 

I'll find out tomorrow as he will hit it again for me.

[mikedit]

> @gmacgolfer78 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > So many people need to lighten up here as Snoman said. I love the comments of "I want consistency, not distance". How many of you have logged a real handicap for one season using a "consistent" iron vs. a "distance" iron? Probably none of you. This site has ego written all over it, the consistency all over the face but looks like a blade is the i500 which is widely snubbed as horrible feeling despite it's amazing results. The 790 also fits this bill but is also snubbed because of it's so called "flier" problem.

> >

> > Want to know why you hit a flier with the the P790, Epic Forged, etc? You probably hit it out of the middle for once. Second, if you hit a flier out of the rough you shouldn't have been there in the first place. I can honestly say I have never seen a flier in person by any skill level of player using modern technology, it's a way for snobby low handicap players that think they should be playing something small to stick their noses into what other people play.

>

> lol. You should never be in the rough.

> Good one.

>

> I hit a flier every round. In the light rough with grain of grass towards target = flier.

>

> These Epic Forged irons are garbage. They wont sell and nobody will remember them in 1 year.

>

Perhaps you should state "In My Opinion" when you post this type of stuff. To call something garbage I question that, have you hit these clubs at all??

 

[Shakespeare]

So I sm trying to wrap my head around these to see how they help an average golfer. The two reviews I saw online had someone hit a 24 deg 6 iron with 3900 spin 220 yards. His gamer 6 iron went low 200s with 4900 spin and he said it was around the same loft as his 5 iron. He also said it was 3 more degrees higher decent than his 6 iron. Since he didnt say same loft as his 5 iron i am assuming it is 25 deg for his 5 iron. Since i hit my 4 iron 190 yards at 24 deg with just shy of 4000 spin, i am thinking that he is 3 clubs longer then me in the irons. So, my peak height with my irons is around 95 ft on flight scope . If i was to hit the 6 iron in the epic with my swing speed, i doubt i get as much spin as he does or descent angle. So do i get 2900 spin with a 6 iron at 24 deg compared to my 4 iron? Since he loses 1000rpms with equivalent loft do I lose more with less swing speed? If so, what does my decent angle have to be to be able to hold the green? Is there a calculation? Just asking since I really dont know how much decent angle is equivalent to 1000 rpms of spin.

[gmacgolfer78]

> @mikedit said:

> > @gmacgolfer78 said:

> > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > So many people need to lighten up here as Snoman said. I love the comments of "I want consistency, not distance". How many of you have logged a real handicap for one season using a "consistent" iron vs. a "distance" iron? Probably none of you. This site has ego written all over it, the consistency all over the face but looks like a blade is the i500 which is widely snubbed as horrible feeling despite it's amazing results. The 790 also fits this bill but is also snubbed because of it's so called "flier" problem.

> > >

> > > Want to know why you hit a flier with the the P790, Epic Forged, etc? You probably hit it out of the middle for once. Second, if you hit a flier out of the rough you shouldn't have been there in the first place. I can honestly say I have never seen a flier in person by any skill level of player using modern technology, it's a way for snobby low handicap players that think they should be playing something small to stick their noses into what other people play.

> >

> > lol. You should never be in the rough.

> > Good one.

> >

> > I hit a flier every round. In the light rough with grain of grass towards target = flier.

> >

> > These Epic Forged irons are garbage. They wont sell and nobody will remember them in 1 year.

> >

> Perhaps you should state "In My Opinion" when you post this type of stuff. To call something garbage I question that, have you hit these clubs at all??

>

 

Yes both in Sim and outdoors. Garbage (IMO)

 

[Red4282]

> @JD3 said:

> Imo these are not slow speed player clubs. Just like titanium drivers were meant for slow speed guys too? These have a height and spin = trajectory advantage over traditonal heads (be they blades or cavities). Once they start creeping into more tour bags people will realize it. It's like a lot of people were still using persimmon and metal when titanium had been available for a few years in drivers.

 

It aint happening. Difference with the driver comparison is you are trying to maximize distance as that is your longest club. With irons its about accuracy. Blades have been around for a longggggg time. Technology has brough us all sorts of materials and concepts but the blade keeps staying in the bag. Theres a reason for that. Now possibly one of these EF could find a way into a tour bag as a long iron replacement but thats it.

 

[JD3]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @JD3 said:

> > Imo these are not slow speed player clubs. Just like titanium drivers were meant for slow speed guys too? These have a height and spin = trajectory advantage over traditonal heads (be they blades or cavities). Once they start creeping into more tour bags people will realize it. It's like a lot of people were still using persimmon and metal when titanium had been available for a few years in drivers.

>

> It aint happening. Difference with the driver comparison is you are trying to maximize distance as that is your longest club. With irons its about accuracy. Blades have been around for a longggggg time. Technology has brough us all sorts of materials and concepts but the blade keeps staying in the bag. Theres a reason for that. Now possibly one of these EF could find a way into a tour bag as a long iron replacement but thats it.

>

 

" ... These have a height and spin = trajectory advantage ... "

 

I didn't even add maximizing distance as the core advantage

[Red4282]

@JD3

Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

[JD3]

> @Red4282 said:

> @JD3

> Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

 

That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

[setter02]

> @JD3 said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > @JD3

> > Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

>

> That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

 

Lol, are you actually comparing these irons to what the PV1 was to golf?

[Red4282]

Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

>

> That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

 

Im not trying to be nasty or anything , but you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. These irons and their concept arent “new”. Its a hybrid that is made to look like an iron head. Name a pro that plays a full set of hybrids. Hybrids are beneficial to even pros in the long iron area because at that point the forgiveness outweighs its distance control dispersion. But when we get into the shorter clubs, forgiveness and ball speed take a back seat, and premium is can the club deliver accurate dispersion front to back, when struck well. Thats gonna be your blade, or even players cavity to some degree. Not to mention most pros WANT to feel their mishits. All these are are a set of hybrids redisigned to look like an iron and some jacked lofts. Heck id be curious how much play they would get on lpga tour. But pga? No way.

 

[phatchrisrules]

> @Red4282 said:

> Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

> >

> > That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

>

> Im not trying to be nasty or anything , but you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. These irons and their concept arent “new”. Its a hybrid that is made to look like an iron head. Name a pro that plays a full set of hybrids. Hybrids are beneficial to even pros in the long iron area because at that point the forgiveness outweighs its distance control dispersion. But when we get into the shorter clubs, forgiveness and ball speed take a back seat, and premium is can the club deliver accurate dispersion front to back, when struck well. Thats gonna be your blade, or even players cavity to some degree. Not to mention most pros WANT to feel their mishits. All these are are a set of hybrids redisigned to look like an iron and some jacked lofts. Heck id be curious how much play they would get on lpga tour. But pga? No way.

>

 

Pros have switched to hybrids because they are more consistent, both in accuracy and in distance control. The cup face/unsupported face on hybrids maintain ball speeds across the face and there is usually only a smaller delta of drop off in terms of ball speed, spin, and peak height when you compare directly to a player's iron which more often than not lack this type of technology for one reason or another (which is a whole other thread of discussion). I'm sorry, but for your roughly 5 handicap and above, there is very little data to support that blades are more consistent in both distance and lateral dispersion. There is a group here that will argue this is true until they are blue in the face but I have seen it in countless, countless fits and it is rarely, if ever, the case when compared to directly to something with some sort of ball speed tech. I can dig up the data and create the document if anybody wants to have a really boring read for a few minutes if it really matters that much using data from well over 200 fits the past year and a half.

 

Moving on, here are the facts. 1) amateurs usually struggle with getting lift. 2) ball speed creates lift. 3) loft controls spin. 4) peak height and descent angle are much more predictable a method for controlling stopping power than is spin as there are a lot of variables that influence spin such as golf ball change from the fitting ball, moisture on the ball, moisture in the air, and strike point, to name a few. If you look at the chart I have affixed below from the Titleist fitter's handbook you will see that launching it high with little spin is just as effective, if not more effective in some cases, as launching it "properly". To build off of this, this is obviously at 115mph which most amateurs would struggle to get to at a 32-34* 7i as most I have seen tend to be in the 105-110mph range for a 6i. Following Titleist, each iron should have roughly 5mph of ball speed differential, meaning most amateurs are going to have between 110-115mph on their current 5i but with insufficient launch. In Callaway's defense, if they strengthen the loft to a "5 iron" to increase ball speed to help with lift and also lower the CG and such to help it peak, they have, in theory, created an iron that launches high and spins more than acceptably for it's ball speed.

 

The last point I want to touch on is market share. The vast, vast majority of golfers are not good to be blunt. The last 2-3 years, the best selling irons at Callaway for the higher handicap have been the Rogue X, the M2/M4/M6 at Taylormade, and the AP1 and AP3 at Titleist. Some of these have even been moving into the mid-handicap range because of their usability and are all off of a 43* or less PW. The so called "strong lofted" Ping Eye 2 is iconic and has been Ping's best selling iron to date. Strong lofts aren't going anywhere, and player's are finding them easier to use, whether it be placebo or not. However, I have a whole host of client's I can refer you to that have made the switch to modern technology and have dropped their scores substantially, some as up to 8 strokes off their handicap with no other change than newer irons.

 

 

[Red4282]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

> > >

> > > That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

> >

> > Im not trying to be nasty or anything , but you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. These irons and their concept arent “new”. Its a hybrid that is made to look like an iron head. Name a pro that plays a full set of hybrids. Hybrids are beneficial to even pros in the long iron area because at that point the forgiveness outweighs its distance control dispersion. But when we get into the shorter clubs, forgiveness and ball speed take a back seat, and premium is can the club deliver accurate dispersion front to back, when struck well. Thats gonna be your blade, or even players cavity to some degree. Not to mention most pros WANT to feel their mishits. All these are are a set of hybrids redisigned to look like an iron and some jacked lofts. Heck id be curious how much play they would get on lpga tour. But pga? No way.

> >

>

> Pros have switched to hybrids because they are more consistent, both in accuracy and in distance control. The cup face/unsupported face on hybrids maintain ball speeds across the face and there is usually only a smaller delta of drop off in terms of ball speed, spin, and peak height when you compare directly to a player's iron which more often than not lack this type of technology for one reason or another (which is a whole other thread of discussion). I'm sorry, but for your roughly 5 handicap and above, there is very little data to support that blades are more consistent in both distance and lateral dispersion. There is a group here that will argue this is true until they are blue in the face but I have seen it in countless, countless fits and it is rarely, if ever, the case when compared to directly to something with some sort of ball speed tech. I can dig up the data and create the document if anybody wants to have a really boring read for a few minutes if it really matters that much using data from well over 200 fits the past year and a half.

>

> Moving on, here are the facts. 1) amateurs usually struggle with getting lift. 2) ball speed creates lift. 3) loft controls spin. 4) peak height and descent angle are much more predictable a method for controlling stopping power than is spin as there are a lot of variables that influence spin such as golf ball change from the fitting ball, moisture on the ball, moisture in the air, and strike point, to name a few. If you look at the chart I have affixed below from the Titleist fitter's handbook you will see that launching it high with little spin is just as effective, if not more effective in some cases, as launching it "properly". To build off of this, this is obviously at 115mph which most amateurs would struggle to get to at a 32-34* 7i as most I have seen tend to be in the 105-110mph range for a 6i. Following Titleist, each iron should have roughly 5mph of ball speed differential, meaning most amateurs are going to have between 110-115mph on their current 5i but with insufficient launch. In Callaway's defense, if they strengthen the loft to a "5 iron" to increase ball speed to help with lift and also lower the CG and such to help it peak, they have, in theory, created an iron that launches high and spins more than acceptably for it's ball speed.

>

> The last point I want to touch on is market share. The vast, vast majority of golfers are not good to be blunt. The last 2-3 years, the best selling irons at Callaway for the higher handicap have been the Rogue X, the M2/M4/M6 at Taylormade, and the AP1 and AP2 at Titleist. Some of these have even been moving into the mid-handicap range because of their usability and are all off of a 43* or less PW. The so called "strong lofted" Ping Eye 2 is iconic and has been Ping's best selling iron to date. Strong lofts aren't going anywhere, and player's are finding them easier to use, whether it be placebo or not. However, I have a whole host of client's I can refer you to that have made the switch to modern technology and have dropped their scores substantially, some as up to 8 strokes off their handicap with no other change than newer irons.

>

>

>

 

Pros dont have a full bag of hybrids tho. One or two at most. And what you said is a far cry from pros will be gaming these and these are for high speeds as well. You make an argument for amateurs and i definitely think there are some who could benefit.

 

Strong lofts arent going anywhere, i agree, but its more to do with marketing, and ego than anything else.

[Shakespeare]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

> > >

> > > That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

> >

> > Im not trying to be nasty or anything , but you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. These irons and their concept arent “new”. Its a hybrid that is made to look like an iron head. Name a pro that plays a full set of hybrids. Hybrids are beneficial to even pros in the long iron area because at that point the forgiveness outweighs its distance control dispersion. But when we get into the shorter clubs, forgiveness and ball speed take a back seat, and premium is can the club deliver accurate dispersion front to back, when struck well. Thats gonna be your blade, or even players cavity to some degree. Not to mention most pros WANT to feel their mishits. All these are are a set of hybrids redisigned to look like an iron and some jacked lofts. Heck id be curious how much play they would get on lpga tour. But pga? No way.

> >

>

> Pros have switched to hybrids because they are more consistent, both in accuracy and in distance control. The cup face/unsupported face on hybrids maintain ball speeds across the face and there is usually only a smaller delta of drop off in terms of ball speed, spin, and peak height when you compare directly to a player's iron which more often than not lack this type of technology for one reason or another (which is a whole other thread of discussion). I'm sorry, but for your roughly 5 handicap and above, there is very little data to support that blades are more consistent in both distance and lateral dispersion. There is a group here that will argue this is true until they are blue in the face but I have seen it in countless, countless fits and it is rarely, if ever, the case when compared to directly to something with some sort of ball speed tech. I can dig up the data and create the document if anybody wants to have a really boring read for a few minutes if it really matters that much using data from well over 200 fits the past year and a half.

>

> Moving on, here are the facts. 1) amateurs usually struggle with getting lift. 2) ball speed creates lift. 3) loft controls spin. 4) peak height and descent angle are much more predictable a method for controlling stopping power than is spin as there are a lot of variables that influence spin such as golf ball change from the fitting ball, moisture on the ball, moisture in the air, and strike point, to name a few. If you look at the chart I have affixed below from the Titleist fitter's handbook you will see that launching it high with little spin is just as effective, if not more effective in some cases, as launching it "properly". To build off of this, this is obviously at 115mph which most amateurs would struggle to get to at a 32-34* 7i as most I have seen tend to be in the 105-110mph range for a 6i. Following Titleist, each iron should have roughly 5mph of ball speed differential, meaning most amateurs are going to have between 110-115mph on their current 5i but with insufficient launch. In Callaway's defense, if they strengthen the loft to a "5 iron" to increase ball speed to help with lift and also lower the CG and such to help it peak, they have, in theory, created an iron that launches high and spins more than acceptably for it's ball speed.

>

> The last point I want to touch on is market share. The vast, vast majority of golfers are not good to be blunt. The last 2-3 years, the best selling irons at Callaway for the higher handicap have been the Rogue X, the M2/M4/M6 at Taylormade, and the AP1 and AP2 at Titleist. Some of these have even been moving into the mid-handicap range because of their usability and are all off of a 43* or less PW. The so called "strong lofted" Ping Eye 2 is iconic and has been Ping's best selling iron to date. Strong lofts aren't going anywhere, and player's are finding them easier to use, whether it be placebo or not. However, I have a whole host of client's I can refer you to that have made the switch to modern technology and have dropped their scores substantially, some as up to 8 strokes off their handicap with no other change than newer irons.

>

>

>

 

Thanks for the chart...not sure how a 16 deg launch has a window of 4000 to 8000 rpms as ideal spin.Can you explain the criteria where that big of spread is ideal for the same launch( based on green softness or whatever) and would the whole graph shift to the right and go higher for slower swing speeds? Thanks

[Ripken08]

> @rgk5 said:

> Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> Average:

> Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> Best

> Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

>

> All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> Interesting to say the least.

 

If you are a master fitter, then you should know that the iron numbers are off by 1.

[JD3]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @Red4282 said:

> > > Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

> > > >

> > > > That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

> > >

> > > Im not trying to be nasty or anything , but you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. These irons and their concept arent “new”. Its a hybrid that is made to look like an iron head. Name a pro that plays a full set of hybrids. Hybrids are beneficial to even pros in the long iron area because at that point the forgiveness outweighs its distance control dispersion. But when we get into the shorter clubs, forgiveness and ball speed take a back seat, and premium is can the club deliver accurate dispersion front to back, when struck well. Thats gonna be your blade, or even players cavity to some degree. Not to mention most pros WANT to feel their mishits. All these are are a set of hybrids redisigned to look like an iron and some jacked lofts. Heck id be curious how much play they would get on lpga tour. But pga? No way.

> > >

> >

> > Pros have switched to hybrids because they are more consistent, both in accuracy and in distance control. The cup face/unsupported face on hybrids maintain ball speeds across the face and there is usually only a smaller delta of drop off in terms of ball speed, spin, and peak height when you compare directly to a player's iron which more often than not lack this type of technology for one reason or another (which is a whole other thread of discussion). I'm sorry, but for your roughly 5 handicap and above, there is very little data to support that blades are more consistent in both distance and lateral dispersion. There is a group here that will argue this is true until they are blue in the face but I have seen it in countless, countless fits and it is rarely, if ever, the case when compared to directly to something with some sort of ball speed tech. I can dig up the data and create the document if anybody wants to have a really boring read for a few minutes if it really matters that much using data from well over 200 fits the past year and a half.

> >

> > Moving on, here are the facts. 1) amateurs usually struggle with getting lift. 2) ball speed creates lift. 3) loft controls spin. 4) peak height and descent angle are much more predictable a method for controlling stopping power than is spin as there are a lot of variables that influence spin such as golf ball change from the fitting ball, moisture on the ball, moisture in the air, and strike point, to name a few. If you look at the chart I have affixed below from the Titleist fitter's handbook you will see that launching it high with little spin is just as effective, if not more effective in some cases, as launching it "properly". To build off of this, this is obviously at 115mph which most amateurs would struggle to get to at a 32-34* 7i as most I have seen tend to be in the 105-110mph range for a 6i. Following Titleist, each iron should have roughly 5mph of ball speed differential, meaning most amateurs are going to have between 110-115mph on their current 5i but with insufficient launch. In Callaway's defense, if they strengthen the loft to a "5 iron" to increase ball speed to help with lift and also lower the CG and such to help it peak, they have, in theory, created an iron that launches high and spins more than acceptably for it's ball speed.

> >

> > The last point I want to touch on is market share. The vast, vast majority of golfers are not good to be blunt. The last 2-3 years, the best selling irons at Callaway for the higher handicap have been the Rogue X, the M2/M4/M6 at Taylormade, and the AP1 and AP2 at Titleist. Some of these have even been moving into the mid-handicap range because of their usability and are all off of a 43* or less PW. The so called "strong lofted" Ping Eye 2 is iconic and has been Ping's best selling iron to date. Strong lofts aren't going anywhere, and player's are finding them easier to use, whether it be placebo or not. However, I have a whole host of client's I can refer you to that have made the switch to modern technology and have dropped their scores substantially, some as up to 8 strokes off their handicap with no other change than newer irons.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Pros dont have a full bag of hybrids tho. One or two at most. And what you said is a far cry from pros will be gaming these and these are for high speeds as well. You make an argument for amateurs and i definitely think there are some who could benefit.

>

> Strong lofts arent going anywhere, i agree, but its more to do with marketing, and ego than anything else.

 

These aren't hybrids. Hybrids have more of a ballooning flight, these have more of a boring powerful flight. This type of club has already started creeping into many bags in the form of a long iron replacement UI. Just a matter of time before they "creep" even deeper into the bag. Full bag? No. And even the wedges that come with theses sets aren't especially hot. No one is saying a "hot" gap wedge is a good idea for a better player.

[Red4282]

> @JD3 said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > > @Red4282 said:

> > > > Yea except high speed players dont have a problem getting it up. In fact alot are trying to keep it down. Lower spin is not an advantage with these, at least not for dispersion front to back.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's like saying they should have stayed with higher spin, lower launch wound balls after ProV1 came out.

> > > >

> > > > Im not trying to be nasty or anything , but you really dont have a clue what you are talking about. These irons and their concept arent “new”. Its a hybrid that is made to look like an iron head. Name a pro that plays a full set of hybrids. Hybrids are beneficial to even pros in the long iron area because at that point the forgiveness outweighs its distance control dispersion. But when we get into the shorter clubs, forgiveness and ball speed take a back seat, and premium is can the club deliver accurate dispersion front to back, when struck well. Thats gonna be your blade, or even players cavity to some degree. Not to mention most pros WANT to feel their mishits. All these are are a set of hybrids redisigned to look like an iron and some jacked lofts. Heck id be curious how much play they would get on lpga tour. But pga? No way.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Pros have switched to hybrids because they are more consistent, both in accuracy and in distance control. The cup face/unsupported face on hybrids maintain ball speeds across the face and there is usually only a smaller delta of drop off in terms of ball speed, spin, and peak height when you compare directly to a player's iron which more often than not lack this type of technology for one reason or another (which is a whole other thread of discussion). I'm sorry, but for your roughly 5 handicap and above, there is very little data to support that blades are more consistent in both distance and lateral dispersion. There is a group here that will argue this is true until they are blue in the face but I have seen it in countless, countless fits and it is rarely, if ever, the case when compared to directly to something with some sort of ball speed tech. I can dig up the data and create the document if anybody wants to have a really boring read for a few minutes if it really matters that much using data from well over 200 fits the past year and a half.

> > >

> > > Moving on, here are the facts. 1) amateurs usually struggle with getting lift. 2) ball speed creates lift. 3) loft controls spin. 4) peak height and descent angle are much more predictable a method for controlling stopping power than is spin as there are a lot of variables that influence spin such as golf ball change from the fitting ball, moisture on the ball, moisture in the air, and strike point, to name a few. If you look at the chart I have affixed below from the Titleist fitter's handbook you will see that launching it high with little spin is just as effective, if not more effective in some cases, as launching it "properly". To build off of this, this is obviously at 115mph which most amateurs would struggle to get to at a 32-34* 7i as most I have seen tend to be in the 105-110mph range for a 6i. Following Titleist, each iron should have roughly 5mph of ball speed differential, meaning most amateurs are going to have between 110-115mph on their current 5i but with insufficient launch. In Callaway's defense, if they strengthen the loft to a "5 iron" to increase ball speed to help with lift and also lower the CG and such to help it peak, they have, in theory, created an iron that launches high and spins more than acceptably for it's ball speed.

> > >

> > > The last point I want to touch on is market share. The vast, vast majority of golfers are not good to be blunt. The last 2-3 years, the best selling irons at Callaway for the higher handicap have been the Rogue X, the M2/M4/M6 at Taylormade, and the AP1 and AP2 at Titleist. Some of these have even been moving into the mid-handicap range because of their usability and are all off of a 43* or less PW. The so called "strong lofted" Ping Eye 2 is iconic and has been Ping's best selling iron to date. Strong lofts aren't going anywhere, and player's are finding them easier to use, whether it be placebo or not. However, I have a whole host of client's I can refer you to that have made the switch to modern technology and have dropped their scores substantially, some as up to 8 strokes off their handicap with no other change than newer irons.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Pros dont have a full bag of hybrids tho. One or two at most. And what you said is a far cry from pros will be gaming these and these are for high speeds as well. You make an argument for amateurs and i definitely think there are some who could benefit.

> >

> > Strong lofts arent going anywhere, i agree, but its more to do with marketing, and ego than anything else.

>

> These aren't hybrids. Hybrids have more of a ballooning flight, these have more of a boring powerful flight. This type of club has already started creeping into many bags in the form of a long iron replacement UI. Just a matter of time before they "creep" even deeper into the bag. Full bag? No. And even the wedges that come with theses sets aren't especially hot. No one is saying a "hot" gap wedge is a good idea for a better player.

 

Eh... id say it depends on the hybrid as far as flights concerned, they certainly aren't all the same. And you just basically repeated what i said...glad you could see and agree ?

[rgk5]

> @Ripken08 said:

> > @rgk5 said:

> > Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> > Average:

> > Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> > Best

> > Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

> >

> > All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> > Interesting to say the least.

>

> If you are a master fitter, then you should know that the iron numbers are off by 1.

 

The number, i.e. what is on the bottom of the club is meaningless. My old back-up set of Eye 2 BeCu irons have lofts that are eye popping, e.g. the PW is 50.5*. What does matter is whether the player can benefit from an iron like the Epic Forged and enjoy the game more. And yes, I am a Master Fitter, and have sold over $7.5 million worth of gear in the last 16 years working less than 20 hours per week.

I fit with whatever works for my customers and do not care which brand or loft offers the solution that works best within the budget constraints of the customer.

[rgk5]

> @rgk5 said:

> > @wfrogge1 said:

> > > @rgk5 said:

> > > Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> > > Average:

> > > Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> > > Best

> > > Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

> > >

> > > All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> > > Interesting to say the least.

> >

> > What was the spin on that 7 iron? 3000 RPM?

>

> I'll find out tomorrow as he will hit it again for me.

 

The spin rate was 4500 rpm, perfectly acceptable with a 44* angle of descent.

This using a Pro V1 ball.

[Bomber_11]

Still don't get the distance obsession w/ irons

 

Who cares if you can hit a 7 iron 228, can you keep it on line?

 

Just gonna cause a miserable gap when your 52* wedge goes 130 and your PW goes 165 lol

[rgk5]

> @Bomber_11 said:

> Still don't get the distance obsession w/ irons

>

> Who cares if you can hit a 7 iron 228, can you keep it on line?

>

> Just gonna cause a miserable gap when your 52* wedge goes 130 and your PW goes 165 lol

 

I'm not obsessed at all, just reporting what new tech can achieve and it is NOT for every player. For older guys like me, it has some appeal.

[averynickt]

enough of the fighting about it..point is, the clubs have a purpose. all in all, they look decent, feel better than expected, and perform well.

 

now has anyone tried any other shaft in these other than the stock 90 gram? interested in the steelfiber 110 or maybe like a modus 120

[Shakespeare]

> @rgk5 said:

> > @rgk5 said:

> > > @wfrogge1 said:

> > > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> > > > Average:

> > > > Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> > > > Best

> > > > Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

> > > >

> > > > All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> > > > Interesting to say the least.

> > >

> > > What was the spin on that 7 iron? 3000 RPM?

> >

> > I'll find out tomorrow as he will hit it again for me.

>

> The spin rate was 4500 rpm, perfectly acceptable with a 44* angle of descent.

> This using a Pro V1 ball.

 

So..at 27 deg loft it still spins less then a 26 deg 5 iron spins for me and he swings must faster then i do. I dont think this will be for me...even if i can hit it a little higher. IF it could spin like pxg's , then maybe it would be more playable...idk..my head hurts in this thread.

[rgk5]

> @averynickt said:

> enough of the fighting about it..point is, the clubs have a purpose. all in all, they look decent, feel better than expected, and perform well.

>

> now has anyone tried any other shaft in these other than the stock 90 gram? interested in the steelfiber 110 or maybe like a modus 120

 

Modus 120 S in the club used by my Golftec asssociate.

[rgk5]

> @averynickt said:

> enough of the fighting about it..point is, the clubs have a purpose. all in all, they look decent, feel better than expected, and perform well.

>

> now has anyone tried any other shaft in these other than the stock 90 gram? interested in the steelfiber 110 or maybe like a modus 120

 

Modus 120 S in the club used by my Golftec asssociate.> @Shakespeare said:

> > @rgk5 said:

> > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > @wfrogge1 said:

> > > > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > > Last night after closing we had one of the Golftec guys try out the new Epic Forged 7-iron. He is a very accomplished striker and below are the results, averaged and best. Launch angle remained constant from 16.5 to 17.1 degrees.

> > > > > Average:

> > > > > Distance 228 , Ball Speed 136

> > > > > Best

> > > > > Distance 242, Ball Speed 144

> > > > >

> > > > > All shots were tracked via the GC Quad with all settings set to normal, no boost. In 15 years as a Master Fitter I have never seen anything like this.

> > > > > Interesting to say the least.

> > > >

> > > > What was the spin on that 7 iron? 3000 RPM? :(

> > >

> > > I'll find out tomorrow as he will hit it again for me.

> >

> > The spin rate was 4500 rpm, perfectly acceptable with a 44* angle of descent.

> > This using a Pro V1 ball.

>

> So..at 27 deg loft it still spins less then a 26 deg 5 iron spins for me and he swings must faster then i do. I dont think this will be for me...even if i can hit it a little higher. IF it could spin like pxg's , then maybe it would be more playable...idk..**my head hurts in this thread.

**

So does mine.

[averynickt]

and how did the modus 120 perform? swingweight and performance?

[NDGolfer13]

> @rgk5 said:

> > @TrueWRX said:

> > Need to add 8 wedges to the bag

> 42, 45, 47, 49, 51, 53, 55 57, 59

> Maybe nine. :o

 

Then it plays right Into every wrx’rs hand. More clubs more clubs more clubs.

[dciccoritti]

Frightening...too funny.

 

When Michael Newton tasted the 7 iron which is 27 degrees he averaged:

195 yards carry

32 yards peak height

5300 Spin

 

When he tested the new MP-20 5 iron blade which is 26 degrees he averaged:

 

189 Yards Carry

31 yards peak height

5000 Spin

 

Sorry but 5-6 yards is not frightening especially when he hit the Epic Forged with the stock graphite 70g shaft vs the S300 in the MP-20. Put that shaft in the MP-20 and it's EXACTLY the same ?

[gmacgolfer78]

> @dciccoritti said:

> Frightening...too funny.

>

> When Michael Newton tasted the 7 iron which is 27 degrees he averaged:

> 195 yards carry

> 32 yards peak height

> 5300 Spin

>

> When he tested the new MP-20 5 iron blade which is 26 degrees he averaged:

>

> 189 Yards Carry

> 31 yards peak height

> 5000 Spin

>

> Sorry but 5-6 yards is not frightening especially when he hit the Epic Forged with the stock graphite 70g shaft vs the S300 in the MP-20. Put that shaft in the MP-20 and it's EXACTLY the same ?

 

except it looks and feels way worse!

 

[BostonWRX]

I think what everyone is trying to say there is nothing special about the “new tech”. It’s just jacked lofts w/ a low CG and longer shaft to achieve the distances. > @rgk5 said:

> > @Bomber_11 said:

> > Still don't get the distance obsession w/ irons

> >

> > Who cares if you can hit a 7 iron 228, can you keep it on line?

> >

> > Just gonna cause a miserable gap when your 52* wedge goes 130 and your PW goes 165 lol

>

> I'm not obsessed at all, just reporting what new tech can achieve and it is NOT for every player. For older guys like me, it has some appeal.