Kuchar in the bunker

straightshot7 · September 11, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest _**and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it.**_ Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

> > > > >

> > > > > Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

> > > >

> > > > Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

> > > >

> > > > I already addressed that in what I said.

> > > >

> > > > That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

> > > >

> > > > Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

> > > >

> > > > You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

> > >

> > > I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

> > >

> > > We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

> >

> > Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. **He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same.** He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. **He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."**

> >

> > Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

> >

> > That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

>

> Not in this instance. No.

>

> If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

"Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

bladehunter · September 11, 2019

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’veour lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loosearound your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

> > > > >

> > > > > You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

> > > >

> > > > We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

> > >

> > > Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. **He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same.** He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. **He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."**

> > >

> > > Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

> > >

> > > That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

> >

> > Not in this instance. No.

> >

> > If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

>

> I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

>

> "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

>

> Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest _**and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it.**_ Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

> > > > >

> > > > > I already addressed that in what I said.

> > > > >

> > > > > That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

> > > > >

> > > > > You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

> > > >

> > > > We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

> > >

> > > Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. **He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same.** He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. **He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."**

> > >

> > > Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

> > >

> > > That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

> >

> > Not in this instance. No.

> >

> > If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

>

> I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

>

> "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

>

> Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

At no point have I said that you cannot improve your lie by moving things that are touching the ball. I simply said this in this case that was not applicable.

Improving your lie with movement of a growing item , natural item , integral boundary etc has zero to do with sand or pebbles.

Mr. Grumpy · September 11, 2019

C'mon, Kuch is there for you man, he is exploiting the system so you can shoot your 95.

This target on his back is stupid.. I hazard to guess how many yesterday, tomorrow or this weekend will adhere to such a narrow interpretation of all golf rules...

Somebody has to challenge it or it will remain the same. He did nothing wrong, now buy something off the BST and feel instantly better about yourself...

With love,

Mr. Grumpy

Mr. Grumpy · September 11, 2019

"Kuchar was being guided by a Rules Official who was clearly fine with his actions, although Mark Roe in commentary wasn’t happy."

LOL

bscinstnct · September 11, 2019

kuch do that while I playin

I jump in the bunker like

Philomathesq · September 11, 2019

> @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> C'mon, Kuch is there for you man, he is exploiting the system so you can shoot your 95.

> This target on his back is stupid.. **I hazard** to guess how many yesterday, tomorrow or this weekend will adhere to such a narrow interpretation of all golf rules...

> Somebody has to challenge it or it will remain the same. He did nothing wrong, now buy something off the BST and feel instantly better about yourself...

>

> With love,

> Mr. Grumpy

I see what you did there.

JohnnyCashForever · September 17, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

Kuch's lie basically went from this...

...to this

And for this magic trick, all he needed was a self-serving reading of the rules and a feckless rules official.

Kuch should pack a hand trowel in his bag to make these rules interpretations easier to implement in the future. Something like this:

He should write "Kuch" on it in permanent ink so folks will know it's his.

ray9898 · September 17, 2019

I truly love how he can just live in some peoples heads these days. They watch every move trying to find their next outrage while he smiles and waves making millions.