Following Rules

[heavy_hitter]

> @leezer99 said:

> All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

 

^^^^^ This

 

And in a few months I will post publicly a story and why I had my thread on cheating deleted. A few on here already know the story and is a doozy. It included cheating, social media, and law enforcement being called.

[Kcct82]

Yesterday we had a new kid in our group, he touched the ball with his club almost every time he was getting ready. He also missed the ball completely on one swing. I didn’t say anything, because he was shooting in the 50’s already. Wanted to talk to the dad afterwards but my kid had to go into playoff so I missed them.

[leezer99]

> @yellowlover519 said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

>

> 99 out of 100?!

>

>

 

That's excessive but yes, they aren't counting other kids shots unless it was a gross understatement. Then, at least for my son, if he catches you lying he will pay full attention.

[yellowlover519]

> @Kcct82 said:

> Yesterday we had a new kid in our group, he touched the ball with his club almost every time he was getting ready. He also missed the ball completely on one swing. I didn’t say anything, because he was shooting in the 50’s already. Wanted to talk to the dad afterwards but my kid had to go into playoff so I missed them.

 

I don’t think it’s a penalty for touching the ball at address if the ball doesn’t move or just moves slightly back and forth and stays in its original position.

 

 

[mrshinsa]

> @yellowlover519 said:

> > @mrshinsa said:

> > > @Noles said:

> > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > >

> > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> >

> > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> >

> > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

>

> You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

>

> I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

 

I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised if your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies to call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

[heavy_hitter]

> @mrshinsa said:

> > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > @Noles said:

> > > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> > >

> > > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> > >

> > > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

> >

> > You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

> >

> > I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

>

> I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised is your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

> In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

 

I have heard it on our local tour as well as state. Don't remember at World's.

[yellowlover519]

> @mrshinsa said:

> > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > @Noles said:

> > > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> > >

> > > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> > >

> > > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

> >

> > You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

> >

> > I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

>

> I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised is your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

> In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

 

Then how do you know when to play 2 balls? When you’re unsure of a rule? Don’t you usually ask one of the parents in your group first? Do you just unilaterally play 2 balls if you are unsure? What if you don’t know the rules at all? Who calls that out to play 2 balls? What are you talking about?!

 

 

[heavy_hitter]

> @yellowlover519 said:

> > @mrshinsa said:

> > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > > @Noles said:

> > > > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> > > >

> > > > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > > > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> > > >

> > > > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

> > >

> > > You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

> > >

> > > I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

> >

> > I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised is your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

> > In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

>

> Then how do you know when to play 2 balls? When you’re unsure of a rule? Don’t you usually ask one of the parents in your group first? Do you just unilaterally play 2 balls if you are unsure? What if you don’t know the rules at all? Who calls that out to play 2 balls? What are you talking about?!

>

>

 

Do not ever ask another parent. Play 2 balls. My kid got a 2 stroke penalty at 12 year old world's for taking the advice of another parent. Didn't play a second ball. Official watched us in a cart from a far, didn't even know he was there, and then assessed us a penalty on the next hole. I was furious, because the official lied about it the situation as well. He literally sat on a hill on the hole we were on and watched. The thing is, the drop wouldn't had made a hill of beans difference in how he dropped, but he got the penalty anyway because he dropped wrong.

[yellowlover519]

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > > > @Noles said:

> > > > > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> > > > >

> > > > > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > > > > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> > > > >

> > > > > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

> > > >

> > > > You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

> > > >

> > > > I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

> > >

> > > I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised is your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

> > > In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

> >

> > Then how do you know when to play 2 balls? When you’re unsure of a rule? Don’t you usually ask one of the parents in your group first? Do you just unilaterally play 2 balls if you are unsure? What if you don’t know the rules at all? Who calls that out to play 2 balls? What are you talking about?!

> >

> >

>

> Do not ever ask another parent. Play 2 balls. My kid got a 2 stroke penalty at 12 year old world's for taking the advice of another parent. Didn't play a second ball. Official watched us in a cart from a far, didn't even know he was there, and then assessed us a penalty on the next hole. I was furious, because the official lied about it the situation as well. He literally sat on a hill on the hole we were on and watched. The thing is, the drop wouldn't had made a hill of beans difference in how he dropped, but he got the penalty anyway because he dropped wrong.

 

I get that parents are not supposed to actively be rules officials - hence the 2-ball rule. I’m saying how can you not expect a parent to even point out that 2 balls should be played during a situation that’s clearly or likely an infraction. Of course you should agree to 2 balls being played if there is a possible violation. What if a person hits OB or loses his ball? You’re supposed to just let them drop 3 and not tell them they have to go back to the tee box? You don’t tell them they should hit 3 off the tee just in case? Our director certainly encourages telling the group to play 2 balls if there is an ambiguity.

In my original post, you should certainly write down the score, including penalties, and then tell them they can discuss with an official or at the scorer’s table. Huge difference between that and walking around like you’re a rules official.

 

[yellowlover519]

 

> @leezer99 said:

> > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > @leezer99 said:

> > > All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

> >

> > 99 out of 100?!

> >

> >

>

> That's excessive but yes, they aren't counting other kids shots unless it was a gross understatement. Then, at least for my son, if he catches you lying he will pay full attention.

 

Oh boy - what’s the point of keeping another player’s score if you’re not even watching them. For shits and giggles?

 

 

[wkuo3]

> @yellowlover519 said:

> Have been doing USKG since my son was 5 (now 11). I think 10-12 you see a whole new influx of kids. Got paired the first fall tourney with a new dad and son. On the first hole, his son marked the ball on the fringe and picked up. At the end of the hole, I announced the score (assessed a one stroke penalty for picking up the ball) and his dad got mad. Said - it’s his first tourney; why would I assess a penalty. I responded — haven’t heard that as an excuse to not follow rules — just trying to protect the field (his son wasn’t going to place anyway). Wasn’t pleasant the following 17 holes but didn’t care.

> Why do some parents think that it’s okay to not follow rules when the majority does? Do you guys see that a lot? Even if the kid is going to finish near the bottom, what if last place followed every rule and would have finished second to last had the kid ahead of him took every stroke. Am I just naive to how stringent parents are on these USKG tours? I know at regional and worlds this is a nonissue, but I always tried to teach my son to be honest and accurate from the get go.

 

It'd no big deal if not in a tournament round. I'm glad you did not yield to that parent .

Even so, I would encourage playing every shot with the rules because there is no telling if the habit will carry over to the tournament rounds ( even a club championship ).

Children learn from their parents and guardians, if it's okay to go around the rules once, it must be okay to do it the second time, again and again.

 

Playing by the rules might be tough to start with, however, it'll be unnoticeable once we get used to the correct way to handle things.

I hope that parent made a mistake and was just trying to cover it up in front of his son. If he really thinks it's okay to do that knowingly , he will be teaching the kid some habits which may cause some grief in the future.

Rules in golf tournament are made for everyone in the field, just like rules in life are made for everyone. I can't help but to think of those whom paid hundreds of thousands, even million to get their kids into the Ivy League. Breaking the rules seemed to be accepted more these days. I'm glad golf is one of the segment still enforcing the rules.

 

[leezer99]

> @yellowlover519 said:

>

> > @leezer99 said:

> > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > @leezer99 said:

> > > > All I'm reading in this thread are parents that are more concerned with what other kids are doing than their own. I get the "protect the field argument" but this is junior golf. Just wait until they're playing on their own and you can't call a penalty and your kid doesn't see it. I see this happen weekly. 99 out of a 100 times kids aren't even aware of the score of the kid they are scoring for and simply ask, "what did you get there?"

> > >

> > > 99 out of 100?!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That's excessive but yes, they aren't counting other kids shots unless it was a gross understatement. Then, at least for my son, if he catches you lying he will pay full attention.

>

> Oh boy - what’s the point of keeping another player’s score if you’re not even watching them. For **** and giggles?

>

>

 

I'm sure they all have a general awareness but none of them are tallying every shot on every hole nor are they near enough to every player to see every infraction that might occur. This weekend my son scored for a kid that was a 100 yards behind him after every tee shot (his second shots were going just past my son's drives) and there's no way he was going to wait back where that player was on every shot. There was even an instance where the kid hit a shot OB and the tournament director told my son and the other kid to just continue playing.

[kcap]

Is it just me or it feels a bunch of people of this thread have never played a USkids tournament.

 

The caddy/parent completely keeps score, even at Worlds. The caddie is not a rule official but plenty of times two balls are played when the the three players with significant input from the parent/caddies are not able to figure out the exact ruling.

 

I will say in local and regionals the atmosphere is quite cordial between caddies. Even at Worlds depending on where you are on the second/third day — its a competitive but respectful round.

 

 

[leezer99]

> @kcap said:

> Is it just me or it feels a bunch of people of this thread have never played a USkids tournament.

>

> The caddy/parent completely keeps score, even at Worlds. The caddie is not a rule official but plenty of times two balls are played when the the three players with significant input from the parent/caddies are not able to figure out the exact ruling.

>

> I will say in local and regionals the atmosphere is quite cordial between caddies. Even at Worlds depending on where you are on the second/third day — its a competitive but respectful round.

>

>

 

What age are you talking about keeping score for your player?

[kcap]

> @leezer99 said:

> > @kcap said:

> > Is it just me or it feels a bunch of people of this thread have never played a USkids tournament.

> >

> > The caddy/parent completely keeps score, even at Worlds. The caddie is not a rule official but plenty of times two balls are played when the the three players with significant input from the parent/caddies are not able to figure out the exact ruling.

> >

> > I will say in local and regionals the atmosphere is quite cordial between caddies. Even at Worlds depending on where you are on the second/third day — its a competitive but respectful round.

> >

> >

>

> What age are you talking about keeping score for your player?

 

It’s not about my son.

It just feels that 90% of parents at US kids even at age 11 and 12 keep the score card. It is fine and I don’t think it take anything away from the kids ability, maturity or golf IQ.

 

When we play US kids I write the score down because we have done that always. fwiw he knows his score w/o needing to write it down. He can also tell you the numbers of putts, GIR and scrambles — it is not hard to keep track off.

 

He plays plenty of non caddie, non spectator tournaments that he can keep score him self and his marker if required.

 

I don’t know why but I seem to be defending him.. according to me parent writing scores in US kids is just a matter of habit and nothing else.

[tiger1873]

> @kcap said:

> > @leezer99 said:

> > > @kcap said:

> > > Is it just me or it feels a bunch of people of this thread have never played a USkids tournament.

> > >

> > > The caddy/parent completely keeps score, even at Worlds. The caddie is not a rule official but plenty of times two balls are played when the the three players with significant input from the parent/caddies are not able to figure out the exact ruling.

> > >

> > > I will say in local and regionals the atmosphere is quite cordial between caddies. Even at Worlds depending on where you are on the second/third day — its a competitive but respectful round.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > What age are you talking about keeping score for your player?

>

> It’s not about my son.

> It just feels that 90% of parents at US kids even at age 11 and 12 keep the score card. It is fine and I don’t think it take anything away from the kids ability, maturity or golf IQ.

>

> When we play US kids I write the score down because we have done that always. fwiw he knows his score w/o needing to write it down. He can also tell you the numbers of putts, GIR and scrambles — it is not hard to keep track off.

>

> He plays plenty of non caddie, non spectator tournaments that he can keep score him self and his marker if required.

>

> I don’t know why but I seem to be defending him.. according to me parent writing scores in US kids is just a matter of habit and nothing else.

 

I agree in US kids the parent of the caddie keeps score. In older groups maybe you have a few kids who play other tours but that is the exception not the rule.

 

It is the same for almost every caddie tournament for juniors.

 

Now if we are talking tournaments without caddies then yes the kids are the only ones supposed to keep scores. Lots of parents have problems with this when kids move up but most learn after a few tournaments. In every case kids are the ones who need to work out issues. As spectator you can talk about rules and that is ok just not advice. Usually best to get rules officials instead of just listening to a random parent and good tournaments have plenty.

[hangontight]

So much depends on the LOCAL TOUR DIRECTOR for the USKG local tours. We have played in local tours where the director was very clear that this is tournament golf and USGA rules are to be followed...with the exception of any local rules or USKG rules (i.e. - 10 shot max). They were formal about instructions and the way they ran the tournaments - for the most part all of the players and parents followed suit and very few problems. On the other hand, we have played in a local tour recently where the director was more along the "we are just here to have fun/its all good" attitude....predictably, we had so many more situations like the OP described that it was a miserable experience. It was beyond frustrating - a free for all with every rule and process issue you can imagine, spectators driving all over the course interfering and slowing play, on and on. The local level is certainly a great place to learn and it doesn't need to be intimidating to new players or parents...but this is a game of rules so I put the burden of setting the right expectations on the Tour Directors. They need to encourage parents to learn at least the basic rules and continue to set the expectation... A simple reminder of one or two rules when starting at the first tee would go a long way to send the message.

[heavy_hitter]

> @yellowlover519 said:

> > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > > > > @Noles said:

> > > > > > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > > > > > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

> > > > >

> > > > > You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

> > > >

> > > > I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised is your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

> > > > In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

> > >

> > > Then how do you know when to play 2 balls? When you’re unsure of a rule? Don’t you usually ask one of the parents in your group first? Do you just unilaterally play 2 balls if you are unsure? What if you don’t know the rules at all? Who calls that out to play 2 balls? What are you talking about?!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Do not ever ask another parent. Play 2 balls. My kid got a 2 stroke penalty at 12 year old world's for taking the advice of another parent. Didn't play a second ball. Official watched us in a cart from a far, didn't even know he was there, and then assessed us a penalty on the next hole. I was furious, because the official lied about it the situation as well. He literally sat on a hill on the hole we were on and watched. The thing is, the drop wouldn't had made a hill of beans difference in how he dropped, but he got the penalty anyway because he dropped wrong.

>

> I get that parents are not supposed to actively be rules officials - hence the 2-ball rule. I’m saying how can you not expect a parent to even point out that 2 balls should be played during a situation that’s clearly or likely an infraction. Of course you should agree to 2 balls being played if there is a possible violation. What if a person hits OB or loses his ball? You’re supposed to just let them drop 3 and not tell them they have to go back to the tee box? You don’t tell them they should hit 3 off the tee just in case? Our director certainly encourages telling the group to play 2 balls if there is an ambiguity.

> In my original post, you should certainly write down the score, including penalties, and then tell them they can discuss with an official or at the scorer’s table. Huge difference between that and walking around like you’re a rules official.

>

 

Those aren't rules decisions that you are talking about.

[yellowlover519]

> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > > > @yellowlover519 said:

> > > > > > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > > > > > @Noles said:

> > > > > > > > I can think of 2 incidents in my days of caddying for my son when mentioning the rules made for an unpleasant situation. Both times I was trying to prevent someone from proceeding incorrectly and both times I really thought I was being helpful. It was not taken that way either time. Both times were basic rules that I was 100% confident in being correct. All it got me was 2 angry fathers. 1 took my advice but was furious at me and the other ignored what I said which later resulted in a penalty when my son brought it up at the scorers table. Thankfully I do not see either of those dads anymore.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Be it a junior event or adults, I never really understood why some get upset at the suggestion that a rule has been breached or if an attempt is made to make sure things are done properly. If I am ever about to break a rule or proceed incorrectly, I hope someone stops me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > At our local tour, the starter always reminds the group the following.

> > > > > > > "Caddies are not rule officials. They should not give ruling on the field. If any questions arise, call a rules official or play two balls. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you gave them advice tactfully, I don't see why they would get upset.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You keep mentioning this point. I’ve never heard a starter say that in 70+ USKG events, including state, regionals and worlds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’ve heard that if you are unsure of a ruling play two balls or call a hotline. Have heard that parents to should assist in playing procedures.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm going to assume "parent help with playing procedure" means to help assist with things like searching for lost ball, tend the pins, etc... I'd be surprised is your tour is encouraging parents, or caddies call out rule infractions on behalf of players.

> > > > > In my observation, parents acting like rule officials never ends well. It usually results in bunch or arguing and and bickering with upset parents and kids crying, and then spills over to Monday forum...

> > > >

> > > > Then how do you know when to play 2 balls? When you’re unsure of a rule? Don’t you usually ask one of the parents in your group first? Do you just unilaterally play 2 balls if you are unsure? What if you don’t know the rules at all? Who calls that out to play 2 balls? What are you talking about?!

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Do not ever ask another parent. Play 2 balls. My kid got a 2 stroke penalty at 12 year old world's for taking the advice of another parent. Didn't play a second ball. Official watched us in a cart from a far, didn't even know he was there, and then assessed us a penalty on the next hole. I was furious, because the official lied about it the situation as well. He literally sat on a hill on the hole we were on and watched. The thing is, the drop wouldn't had made a hill of beans difference in how he dropped, but he got the penalty anyway because he dropped wrong.

> >

> > I get that parents are not supposed to actively be rules officials - hence the 2-ball rule. I’m saying how can you not expect a parent to even point out that 2 balls should be played during a situation that’s clearly or likely an infraction. Of course you should agree to 2 balls being played if there is a possible violation. What if a person hits OB or loses his ball? You’re supposed to just let them drop 3 and not tell them they have to go back to the tee box? You don’t tell them they should hit 3 off the tee just in case? Our director certainly encourages telling the group to play 2 balls if there is an ambiguity.

> > In my original post, you should certainly write down the score, including penalties, and then tell them they can discuss with an official or at the scorer’s table. Huge difference between that and walking around like you’re a rules official.

> >

>

> Those aren't rules decisions that you are talking about.

 

Never in my posts did I say or intend to mean that a parent caddie should make a rules decision. I always said that the other parent as is all competitors are allowed to discuss with an official or at the scorer’s table. But yes, at a USKG event, players/parents should confirm scores after each hole (as we’re told to do and makes sense on so many levels) and should be able to call out a penalty when tallying such score. Parent caddies should also assist in procedure if there is an infraction and encourage the two balls if there is confusion or uncertainty. In my lifting the ball scenario, I’m not sure how two balls would have been plausible there. In the OB scenario, I’m not sure how playing two balls without one of them being back at the tee would be of any benefit given I’ve never been to a USKG tourney adopting a local rule on OB. In fact, I know of very few scenarios where a need to play two balls makes any sense, assuming you have some comprehension of the rules of golf. I guess if you have no clue and the other caddie disagrees to every relief, you can play two balls, but at a certain point, playing two balls starts gaining an advantage.

 

The MET section makes all players take a rules test before being eligible to enter tournaments. USKG needs to do the same.

[Golfingdawg19]

We don't usually run into rules problems but my daughter did have an interesting one happen this summer. We got to the first tee at a state tournament and there was water all down the left side of the hole. One of the girls hits her tee shot dead left and I see the ball splash. The starter even commented after she hit, "that ball is wet.' My daughter and I went to her ball and got ready for our shot. I saw the girl hit from by the water so I assumed she took a drop. When we get to the green and putt out the father tells me that his daughter had par. I told him that she didn't because of the drop situation. He claims they found the ball and didn't have to take a drop. My daughter and the other girl in the threesome look at me with disbelief. We wrote down the score of what she really had and dealt with it when we got to the scorers table. The rules official brought the girls together and said that because they didn't walk over and physically see the girls ball in the water, they had to take her word. Learning experience for me because I assumed people would do the right thing. I also didn't think someone would cheat like that on the first hole of all places.

[kcap]

In all our years of US Kids Golf, we have played a second ball only once. It was in a regional that was playing a embedded ball in the rough as a local rule (course was soaked due to a lot of o/n rain). The players and in this case parent/caddies could not decide if it was embedded. My son hit two balls, we took a picture of the embedded ball and showed it to the rules official at the end for a final ruling.

 

In another instance, I did suggest to another player that he hit a second ball because we did not agree with his interpretation of the nearest point of relief. He was not happy but he is a really good player and should not try and bend the rules.

 

I can think of only 2.. so to @Yellow point it is quite rare.

 

 

 

 

[Noles]

So if you see a player about to do something that would be against the rules (drop in the wrong place, choose to play a provisional after the original ball had been found, etc.) what should a parent caddy do? Would saying something be considered "being a rules official?" I feel like that is what some people are suggesting.

[heavy_hitter]

> @Noles said:

> So if you see a player about to do something that would be against the rules (drop in the wrong place, choose to play a provisional after the original ball had been found, etc.) what should a parent caddy do? Would saying something be considered "being a rules official?" I feel like that is what some people are suggesting.

 

I think a simple solution would be "I can't tell you what to do, but if I were you I would play two balls or grab a rules official."