Embedded Stone

[Vindog]

IMO the difference, at least to me, is that sand is not embedded and may be swept away using a towel or hat. However a stone or shell which requires a tool to be used, or some other prying method means that the LI is embedded.

 

A more specific interpretation would suffice, over a rule rewrite which I don’t feel is necessary. But that’s just me.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @Vindog said:

> IMO the difference, at least to me, is that sand is not embedded and may be swept away using a towel or hat. However a stone or shell which requires a tool to be used, or some other prying method means that the LI is embedded.

>

> A more specific interpretation would suffice, over a rule rewrite which I don’t feel is necessary. But that’s just me.

>

I’m curious as to what more specificity you’d prefer. As it stands, you may use whatever is quickly at your disposal (including helpers for a large, heavy rock or broken-off tree limb) to move any LOOSE impediment in a timely fashion, and may not use anything to move an impediment that is embedded, since you may not move it at all.

 

Like the rule or not, IMO it’s not the language that’s causing trouble.

 

[Vindog]

Oh I think it’s fine. I was just thinking that a rules rewrite isn’t necessary at all, and that an interpretation should suffice, if even that was needed.

[diugnal]

Definitions Loose Impediment “not loose” bullet point 6 “Solidly embedded in the ground (that is, cannot be picked out easily”.

There are 5 interpretations already attached to the Definition.

 

Here’s my suggestion for another

“Interpretation- Loose Impediment/x — Solidly embedded in ground (that is ,cannot be picked out easily)

The player may use a ball marker, tee or pitch repairer to assist picking out. The removal must take seconds only.”

In this draft only commonly carried equipment may be used. Tools such as a screwdriver and pocket knife would not qualify for use.

The reference to fast removal, that is “seconds”, gives a nod to other Rules areas particularly retrieving a ball.

This draft Interpretation is my attempt to imagine what The Ruling Bodies mean by “easily picked out” and which items of equipment might be used, fairly.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @diugnal said:

> Definitions Loose Impediment “not loose” bullet point 6 “Solidly embedded in the ground (that is, cannot be picked out easily”.

> There are 5 interpretations already attached to the Definition.

>

> Here’s my suggestion for another

> “Interpretation- Loose Impediment/x — Solidly embedded in ground (that is ,cannot be picked out easily)

> The player may use a ball marker, tee or pitch repairer to assist picking out. The removal must take seconds only.”

> In this draft only commonly carried equipment may be used. Tools such as a screwdriver and pocket knife would not qualify for use.

> The reference to fast removal, that is “seconds”, gives a nod to other Rules areas particularly retrieving a ball.

> This draft Interpretation is my attempt to imagine what The Ruling Bodies mean by “easily picked out” and which items of equipment might be used, fairly.

>

 

If you need a tool to remove a LI, it really wasn't loose. Opening up the concept of legally recreating the surface of the ground in this way to the entire course seems to me like a really bad idea (and you can do a lot of recreation with the toe of a nine iron). The concept isn't to allow the removal of burried impediments, it's to allow the removal of random loose stuff, and I appreciate it as it is.

[diugnal]

Sawgrass, if the authorities want to restrict the method to “by hand only”, they should say so. If the embedded object is on the Putting Green then repair may be done. Elsewhere if the “loose impediment” is picked out easily you must leave the ground as it is.

People have very different hands, fingers and fingernails and strength.Allowing somebody to pop a small stone with a tee for example levels the opportunity to deal with the situation.

 

The thread is dealing with embedded ”stone” . However there are many other things that are on the list of Loose Impediments. Examples are dead animals and animal waste. See definition of Animals “any living member of the animal kingdom (other than humans) ...”

 

I would like the uncertainty of “picked out easily” clarified. The more things are left to subjective interpretation the more there is argument and Rules problems presented to Referees and Match Committees.

 

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

You seem to think there’s a legitimate problem with embedded dead animals or their waste. Since these things are not generally embedded (ever?) they may be removed by any equipment you have, even unusual equipment, or your hand, whether it’s easily or not. There is no rules issue whatsoever.

 

“Picked out easily” is only for embedded LIs, and it’s clear enough for me. If it’s unclear to a player, ask a ref or just don’t lift it. Look, there’s going to be some subjectivity surrounding this issue pretty much however it works. Your “seconds” restriction is equally as subjective as “easily”.

 

Try rewriting the rule again if you’d like, but IMO it’s not broke and I wouldn’t bother.

 

 

[KyGolf]

I agree. If you have to dig it out it is not loose.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @diugnal said:

> > Definitions Loose Impediment “not loose” bullet point 6 “Solidly embedded in the ground (that is, cannot be picked out easily”.

> > There are 5 interpretations already attached to the Definition.

> >

> > Here’s my suggestion for another

> > “Interpretation- Loose Impediment/x — Solidly embedded in ground (that is ,cannot be picked out easily)

> > The player may use a ball marker, tee or pitch repairer to assist picking out. The removal must take seconds only.”

> > In this draft only commonly carried equipment may be used. Tools such as a screwdriver and pocket knife would not qualify for use.

> > The reference to fast removal, that is “seconds”, gives a nod to other Rules areas particularly retrieving a ball.

> > This draft Interpretation is my attempt to imagine what The Ruling Bodies mean by “easily picked out” and which items of equipment might be used, fairly.

> >

>

> If you need a tool to remove a LI, it really wasn't loose. Opening up the concept of legally recreating the surface of the ground in this way to the entire course seems to me like a really bad idea (and you can do a lot of recreation with the toe of a nine iron). The concept isn't to allow the removal of burried impediments, it's to allow the removal of random loose stuff, and I appreciate it as it is.

 

If RBs intend that "picked out easily" is to be restricted to "by hand" (we're obviously talking off the putting green), I also believe clarity would be served by saying so. I'm all for having the published words in such a form that reduces ambiguity/subjectivity for the majority of readers across the planet.

I see this as a new 2019 uncertainty precisely because of the new permission to dig out acorns etc from the putting green. So, IMO, if that "right" is only for the putting green, clarity would be served by saying so.

[diugnal]

I take it the posters #37 and #38 think removal is by hand only.

I’m accept that interpretation could be what the RB’S are thinking.

Include the restriction in the Definition.

Then there is absolutely no doubt.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @antip said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @diugnal said:

> > > Definitions Loose Impediment “not loose” bullet point 6 “Solidly embedded in the ground (that is, cannot be picked out easily”.

> > > There are 5 interpretations already attached to the Definition.

> > >

> > > Here’s my suggestion for another

> > > “Interpretation- Loose Impediment/x — Solidly embedded in ground (that is ,cannot be picked out easily)

> > > The player may use a ball marker, tee or pitch repairer to assist picking out. The removal must take seconds only.”

> > > In this draft only commonly carried equipment may be used. Tools such as a screwdriver and pocket knife would not qualify for use.

> > > The reference to fast removal, that is “seconds”, gives a nod to other Rules areas particularly retrieving a ball.

> > > This draft Interpretation is my attempt to imagine what The Ruling Bodies mean by “easily picked out” and which items of equipment might be used, fairly.

> > >

> >

> > If you need a tool to remove a LI, it really wasn't loose. Opening up the concept of legally recreating the surface of the ground in this way to the entire course seems to me like a really bad idea (and you can do a lot of recreation with the toe of a nine iron). The concept isn't to allow the removal of burried impediments, it's to allow the removal of random loose stuff, and I appreciate it as it is.

>

> If RBs intend that "picked out easily" is to be restricted to "by hand" (we're obviously talking off the putting green), I also believe clarity would be served by saying so. I'm all for having the published words in such a form that reduces ambiguity/subjectivity for the majority of readers across the planet.

> I see this as a new 2019 uncertainty precisely because of the new permission to dig out acorns etc from the putting green. So, IMO, if that "right" is only for the putting green, clarity would be served by saying so.

 

If you find it unclear, there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise. But I'll point out that embedded loose impediments are not allowed to be removed from putting greens because they are "loose impediments," they are allowed to be dug out, even with specified tools, because they are "objects" which of course include loose impediments (and include obstructions). The premission to improve the condition of the green damaged by such embedded objects, noted in 13.1c, is, to me, easily distinguished from the permission to move loose impediments, which must be loose, as noted in 15.1. and the definition of loose impediment.

 

This whole discussion surrounds the word "easily" and "solidly embedded" as it applies to loose impediments. I continue to find the distinction acceptable as described.

[diugnal]

Let us suppose a small “embedded” stone could possibly be easily picked out. A player wearing cold weather gloves decides to pull a tee from his pocket and flicks it out.

Would that matter? The gloves are irrelevant. The player just might to save her fingernails.

Problem is once the stone is flicked out the supposition of ease of removal remains just a possibility.

Nobody really knows till the picking out is physically attempted.

If the player flicked the stone quickly it would give weight to the position that it was easily picked out.

Imagine a Referee in a match being asked to Rule on the matter because opponent requests a Ruling. He doesn’t actually see the incident. I would feel for the Referee examining the evidence and trying to establish ease or otherwise of “picking out”. Referees don’t need this kind of judgement being forced on them by looseness in the wording of Rules.

Refereeing is hard enough.

[antip]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @diugnal said:

> > > > Definitions Loose Impediment “not loose” bullet point 6 “Solidly embedded in the ground (that is, cannot be picked out easily”.

> > > > There are 5 interpretations already attached to the Definition.

> > > >

> > > > Here’s my suggestion for another

> > > > “Interpretation- Loose Impediment/x — Solidly embedded in ground (that is ,cannot be picked out easily)

> > > > The player may use a ball marker, tee or pitch repairer to assist picking out. The removal must take seconds only.”

> > > > In this draft only commonly carried equipment may be used. Tools such as a screwdriver and pocket knife would not qualify for use.

> > > > The reference to fast removal, that is “seconds”, gives a nod to other Rules areas particularly retrieving a ball.

> > > > This draft Interpretation is my attempt to imagine what The Ruling Bodies mean by “easily picked out” and which items of equipment might be used, fairly.

> > > >

> > >

> > > If you need a tool to remove a LI, it really wasn't loose. Opening up the concept of legally recreating the surface of the ground in this way to the entire course seems to me like a really bad idea (and you can do a lot of recreation with the toe of a nine iron). The concept isn't to allow the removal of burried impediments, it's to allow the removal of random loose stuff, and I appreciate it as it is.

> >

> > If RBs intend that "picked out easily" is to be restricted to "by hand" (we're obviously talking off the putting green), I also believe clarity would be served by saying so. I'm all for having the published words in such a form that reduces ambiguity/subjectivity for the majority of readers across the planet.

> > I see this as a new 2019 uncertainty precisely because of the new permission to dig out acorns etc from the putting green. So, IMO, if that "right" is only for the putting green, clarity would be served by saying so.

>

> If you find it unclear, there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise. But I'll point out that embedded loose impediments are not allowed to be removed from putting greens because they are "loose impediments," they are allowed to be dug out, even with specified tools, because they are "objects" which of course include loose impediments (and include obstructions). The premission to improve the condition of the green damaged by such embedded objects, noted in 13.1c, is, to me, easily distinguished from the permission to move loose impediments, which must be loose, as noted in 15.1. and the definition of loose impediment.

>

> This whole discussion surrounds the word "easily" and "solidly embedded" as it applies to loose impediments. I continue to find the distinction acceptable as described.

 

I understand your argument, that you think no more need be said and I am not suggesting you are wrong. My point is different, if RBs intend that this removal process is limited such that "cannot be picked out easily" means cannot be picked out "by hand" then that is best stated explicitly to remove all doubt for all readers of the rules. It's about knowing where the line is drawn and explaining it in a way that makes the most sense to a diverse audience.

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @diugnal said:

> Let us suppose a small “embedded” stone could possibly be easily picked out. A player wearing cold weather gloves decides to pull a tee from his pocket and flicks it out.

> Would that matter? The gloves are irrelevant. The player just might to save her fingernails.

> Problem is once the stone is flicked out the supposition of ease of removal remains just a possibility.

> Nobody really knows till the picking out is physically attempted.

> If the player flicked the stone quickly it would give weight to the position that it was easily picked out.

> Imagine a Referee in a match being asked to Rule on the matter because opponent requests a Ruling. He doesn’t actually see the incident. I would feel for the Referee examining the evidence and trying to establish ease or otherwise of “picking out”. Referees don’t need this kind of judgement being forced on them by looseness in the wording of Rules.

> Refereeing is hard enough.

 

Referees need to make judgement calls many times and it is mostly not having seen the incident. What you describe would be nothing extraordinary. Also there are (still) many other Rules that are not totally explicit and the way to rule just have to be understood. That is one of the things that make refereeing challenging.

[LegoJim]

Live on a course and just watched a guy (and 2 of his playing partners) move a rock that had weigh 250 lbs and another 100 pounder for this guys stance.  I was ready to condemn this guy in my mind until I read this thread where you can enlist the help of others to move something?  That seems ludicrous to me.  

[Shilgy]

Since a four year old thread has been somewhat revived….

 

Living here in Phoenix we have desert areas…which have small rocks.  Right next to the green we have a desert wash which consists of sand and small rocks always mixed in.  If a player is in there their best play is a bunker style explosion shot which will spray the green with the small rocks. If they are not picked up right away they will become slightly embedded if walked on or the maintenance rolls the greens.

 

If they are embedded but easily picked out are they loose impediments or not?

 

If not is there an available local rule so that they could be removed?

[sui generis]

22 hours ago, LegoJim said:

Live on a course and just watched a guy (and 2 of his playing partners) move a rock that had weigh 250 lbs and another 100 pounder for this guys stance.  I was ready to condemn this guy in my mind until I read this thread where you can enlist the help of others to move something?  That seems ludicrous to me.  

 

How would you write the Rule? Suppose you were playing with your grandmother and a loose impediment interfered with her play. Though she might not have the strength to move it, you or you and another person could easliy move it. "Ludicrous" would be if you weren't permitted to help.

[sui generis]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If they are embedded but easily picked out are they loose impediments or not?

 

Check the Definition of Loose Impediment:

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=34

[Newby]

I believe a ruling goes back about 100 years when a lady found her ball behind a fallen tree. She enlisted help to move the tree from two men she was playing with. This was was reflected in the Tiger Woods boulder incident many years later.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

Check the Definition of Loose Impediment:

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=34

Yes, I looked at that. So your answer would be yes. Because they are easily picked.

 

Thank you

[antip]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Since a four year old thread has been somewhat revived….

 

Living here in Phoenix we have desert areas…which have small rocks.  Right next to the green we have a desert wash which consists of sand and small rocks always mixed in.  If a player is in there their best play is a bunker style explosion shot which will spray the green with the small rocks. If they are not picked up right away they will become slightly embedded if walked on or the maintenance rolls the greens.

 

If they are embedded but easily picked out are they loose impediments or not?

 

If not is there an available local rule so that they could be removed?

On the putting green, Rule 13.1c(2) permits removing embedded objects and repairing the indentations. Off the putting green, the "solidly embedded" issue drives whether they can be lifted. And the arbiter of what is "cannot be picked out easily" is the Committee, the issue is subjective.

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, sui generis said:

How would you write the Rule?

 

Pretty simple I would think.

 

Removal of a loose impediment is restricted to the player and his caddie, or, if a side exists, those players and their caddies.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Pretty simple I would think.

 

Removal of a loose impediment is restricted to the player and his caddie, or, if a side exists, those players and their caddies.

So typically young and male gets more relief than older and female? 
Yep…seems fair.🤣

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

So typically young and male gets more relief than older and female? 
Yep…seems fair.🤣

 

Life ain't fair,,,,,,, and neither is golf.

 

Always irked me that Tiger got the crowd to move that boulder.

 

And for a game where a primary precept is to play the course as you find it, getting outside help to get an advantage other players can't get, just seems,,,,,, wrong,,,,,,,,

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

Life ain't fair,,,,,,, and neither is golf.

 

Always irked me that Tiger got the crowd to move that boulder.

 

And for a game where a primary precept is to play the course as you find it, getting outside help to get an advantage other players can't get, just seems,,,,,, wrong,,,,,,,,

There ya go….I, on the other hand, think it’s most fair that every player plays the same course and gets similar relief.

 

Guess the only option is they just cannot be moved. Play it as it lies.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So typically young and male gets more relief than older and female? 
Yep…seems fair.🤣

And the bigger relief area from the longer driver!

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Pretty simple I would think.

 

Removal of a loose impediment is restricted to the player and his caddie, or, if a side exists, those players and their caddies.

 

I'll not tell your grandmother that you don't want to help her move that big tree branch, she might cut you out of her will. 😉

[ShortGolfer]

I believe the rules allow you to remove fixed impediments such as weeds or rocks that require tools if you do it after the ball is holed. 

Good time to fix pitch marks if you do what I do and play on a lazy weekday afternoon.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

I believe the rules allow you to remove fixed impediments such as weeds or rocks that require tools if you do it after the ball is holed. 

Good time to fix pitch marks if you do what I do and play on a lazy weekday afternoon.

 

Not on the green….you can remove the rocks before.  And repair the hole.