Blades for mid-high handicapper?

[dciccoritti]

> @xyckin said:

> Just needed some feedback before I go into "extensive" testing. Started golf with a set of 2017 M2 irons, moved to Titleist 716 AP1s and now I'm currently a 12ish handicap playing JPX900 Forged with C-Taper 130X and I also have another set of MP18 MB (7-PW) MMC (5-6) MMC FliHi (4) which I picked up for a mad steal. I've dabbled with the MP18 set once in a while and found it to be much nicer feeling on the range but never took it out to the course. I've also never really figured out the gapping for the MP18 set. As for the JPX900F set, I hit my 7i about 180 carry with a decently soft landing, 115-120 mph driver. I'd say my weak link is shots around the green, full shots are decent. My main issues with irons would be low strikes from being too handsy in my swing which causes me to pull the club up and thin the ball. Aside from that, my iron shots are fairly straight with a slight draw. Cured my snap hook miss by shallowing my swing and using the +4 grips. Divots with my JPX900F are fairly deep I'd say.

>

> So the main question here is, what are the real downsides of moving to my MP18s? Do the pros outweigh the cons?

 

For me not a single downside, just a bag full of upsides. However everyone is different ?

 

 

[mahonie]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @chisag said:

> > ... On thing I always hated when I taught full time was a student that said MB's helped them become a better ball striker. That is just the product of an undisciplined and lazy mind. BETTR SWINGS help you become a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with a full set of hybrid irons. I am always amazed that players who claim to be decent golfers can't see the difference in ball flight and spin with ANY iron. While the feeling of missing my 588TT's is more muted than missing my Z Forged MB's, it is still there and I can absolutely tell I missed the center of my 588T's and of course I know when I take a less than ideal swing without a MB stinging my hands.

> >

> >

>

> Completely agree. The feeling is muted but very clearly there. If you can't tell that you hit it off the toe you shouldn't be gaming blades anyways.

 

I agree to some extent. Yes you feel the mishit but that muted feeling robs your brain of sub-consciously identifying just by how much you’ve mishit it. It’s the level of sharpness of feedback from the blade that is the important thing and it’s all done sub-consciously without us knowing too much about it.

 

If you’re just starting out in the game, practicing with blades is the quickest way to develop a honed swing. Learning with CBs may develop a decent swing but it will always be subject to that muted feedback...a less than perfect swing may get decent results, but it will never be as honed as it could have been.

 

My lad has just started playing at 18 after a very brief flirtation 10 years ago. First range session he’s hitting my Mac MT Pros and MP4s and getting the usual mix of shots from someone who’s picking the game up. He notices the difference in feedback between the 2 straightaway, so to satisfy my curiosity I hand him my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s. I am not joking here, after 5 shots where he hit thins and slices, his brain sub-consciously worked out the position of the clubface at impact and made his body make the necessary adjustments so that he was striping it out of the middle. We’ve had a couple of sessions since using those old Macs almost exclusively and I really am surprised at how his ball-striking has developed. Next step is to get him a lesson or two to set the basics and then just let him loose with the Macs to see where it gets him.

 

[Red4282]

> @chisag said:

> ... On thing I always hated when I taught full time was a student that said MB's helped them become a better ball striker. That is just the product of an undisciplined and lazy mind. BETTR SWINGS help you become a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with a full set of hybrid irons. I am always amazed that players who claim to be decent golfers can't see the difference in ball flight and spin with ANY iron. While the feeling of missing my 588TT's is more muted than missing my Z Forged MB's, it is still there and I can absolutely tell I missed the center of my 588T's and of course I know when I take a less than ideal swing without a MB stinging my hands.

>

>

Eh im one of those people and while i dont disagree with better swings, a blade does help me with striking if i put the time practicing in. With a very forgiving cavity or hybrid or whatever, yes i can feel the mishits, but the arent harsh, and they definitely dont scream at me “hey!!!!! Dont do that again!!!!” A blade does. It requires just a smidge more concentration and actually paying attention to how im striking it.

 

[mtharpRR09]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @mtharpRR09 said:

> > I'm a mid-handicapper as well and have gone back and forth from blades to cavity backs several times over the years. The main thing that I've found with the blades is that I loved the feedback that I got from them. I felt that they made me a better ball striker from heel to toe (x-y axis). The problem that I've found with the blades is that they are very unforgiving as the strike moved up on the face (z axis). Low strikes were exactly the same as a cavity back (Thin to win!). I found that hitting a ball just slightly fat was punished pretty severely on distance. You stated that you can get pretty steep with your Mizuno JPX900F so that's something to think about. It sounds like you do have a lot of swing speed so that will help with those strikes. Bottom line, play what you like. Don't play what golf manufacturers tell you to play.

>

> Gotta say I disagree with this massively. Thin is punished severely with a proper blade in comparison to a cavity and fat shots don't go anywhere with any club. The difference you are feeling is likely due to sole grind. Many blades, especially older ones, have very sharp leading edges which will dig. A Ping cavity back has massive bounce. In that case you may brush the ground into the ball however you can still chunk a Ping. I actually hit multiple shots with a Ping iBlade vs a Mizuno MP5 on a par 3 earlier this year and the only fat shot I hit was with the Ping. Hit the MP5 much better. Basically, you need a grind that works for your swing and hitting it fat is never going to go well.

 

If your path is in-to-out then a high bounce club of any type will always dig before the ball no matter what type of leading edge you have. I have an in-to-out path and I have always found that lower bounce irons/wedges work best for me. If you are out-to-in then you will catch ball first and this is where the feel thing comes into effect.

[chippa13]

> @mahonie said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > ... On thing I always hated when I taught full time was a student that said MB's helped them become a better ball striker. That is just the product of an undisciplined and lazy mind. BETTR SWINGS help you become a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with a full set of hybrid irons. I am always amazed that players who claim to be decent golfers can't see the difference in ball flight and spin with ANY iron. While the feeling of missing my 588TT's is more muted than missing my Z Forged MB's, it is still there and I can absolutely tell I missed the center of my 588T's and of course I know when I take a less than ideal swing without a MB stinging my hands.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Completely agree. The feeling is muted but very clearly there. If you can't tell that you hit it off the toe you shouldn't be gaming blades anyways.

>

>** I agree to some extent. Yes you feel the mishit but that muted feeling robs your brain of sub-consciously identifying just by how much you’ve mishit it. It’s the level of sharpness of feedback from the blade that is the important thing and it’s all done sub-consciously without us knowing too much about it.

>

> If you’re just starting out in the game, practicing with blades is the quickest way to develop a honed swing. Learning with CBs may develop a decent swing but it will always be subject to that muted feedback...a less than perfect swing may get decent results, but it will never be as honed as it could have been. **

>

> My lad has just started playing at 18 after a very brief flirtation 10 years ago. First range session he’s hitting my Mac MT Pros and MP4s and getting the usual mix of shots from someone who’s picking the game up. He notices the difference in feedback between the 2 straightaway, so to satisfy my curiosity I hand him my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s. I am not joking here, after 5 shots where he hit thins and slices, his brain sub-consciously worked out the position of the clubface at impact and made his body make the necessary adjustments so that he was striping it out of the middle. We’ve had a couple of sessions since using those old Macs almost exclusively and I really am surprised at how his ball-striking has developed. Next step is to get him a lesson or two to set the basics and then just let him loose with the Macs to see where it gets him.

>

 

Hilarious, who writes your material?

[mahonie]

> @chippa13 said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > ... On thing I always hated when I taught full time was a student that said MB's helped them become a better ball striker. That is just the product of an undisciplined and lazy mind. BETTR SWINGS help you become a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with a full set of hybrid irons. I am always amazed that players who claim to be decent golfers can't see the difference in ball flight and spin with ANY iron. While the feeling of missing my 588TT's is more muted than missing my Z Forged MB's, it is still there and I can absolutely tell I missed the center of my 588T's and of course I know when I take a less than ideal swing without a MB stinging my hands.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Completely agree. The feeling is muted but very clearly there. If you can't tell that you hit it off the toe you shouldn't be gaming blades anyways.

> >

> >** I agree to some extent. Yes you feel the mishit but that muted feeling robs your brain of sub-consciously identifying just by how much you’ve mishit it. It’s the level of sharpness of feedback from the blade that is the important thing and it’s all done sub-consciously without us knowing too much about it.

> >

> > If you’re just starting out in the game, practicing with blades is the quickest way to develop a honed swing. Learning with CBs may develop a decent swing but it will always be subject to that muted feedback...a less than perfect swing may get decent results, but it will never be as honed as it could have been. **

> >

> > My lad has just started playing at 18 after a very brief flirtation 10 years ago. First range session he’s hitting my Mac MT Pros and MP4s and getting the usual mix of shots from someone who’s picking the game up. He notices the difference in feedback between the 2 straightaway, so to satisfy my curiosity I hand him my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s. I am not joking here, after 5 shots where he hit thins and slices, his brain sub-consciously worked out the position of the clubface at impact and made his body make the necessary adjustments so that he was striping it out of the middle. We’ve had a couple of sessions since using those old Macs almost exclusively and I really am surprised at how his ball-striking has developed. Next step is to get him a lesson or two to set the basics and then just let him loose with the Macs to see where it gets him.

> >

>

> Hilarious, who writes your material?

 

Just for laughs you joker, it’s called proprioception...look it up, you may learn something ;-)

[bodhi555]

I haven't spent enough time with the MP 18s to comment how that particular blade responds to being caught thin, however I know my VR Pros are actually pretty good with if I come up and out of it - the balls will reach about 50% of the height of a well struck shot, but total distance is very similar even if the thin shot doesn't carry as far.

 

I'd go for it OP, not sure if you really have anything to lose? Worst case they don't work out, if you got them for a steal you should easily make that back, and go back to your 900F.

[chippa13]

That is a complete misapplication and misunderstanding of proprioception, but you carry on with that.

[getitdaily]

Just play them if you have them...if you don't like them then go back to the 900 forged.

 

I will day from personal experience that the 900forged long irons aren't the easiest to hit. They're low launch and low spin. Your clubhead speed shouldn't be a problem with them but you may see better long iron results just from having a higher spin set of clubs. But you gotta make consistent contact or you're toast.

[mahonie]

> @chippa13 said:

> That is a complete misapplication and misunderstanding of proprioception, but you carry on with that.

 

I’ll dig out the paper I read and post the relevant sections...in the meantime try hitting balls with oven mitts on and compare it to hitting with bare hands...same principle applies.

[chippa13]

Proprioception allows him to swing a golf club without falling down or staring at his hands to do it. It doesn't magically make him stripe a blade 2 iron because he shanked the first few shots.

[mahonie]

Proprioception also relates to ‘intrinsic’ feedback...what your muscles and nerves are feeling. The more the nerve fires, the more myelin wraps around it. The more myelin wraps around it, the faster the signals travel, creating more muscle memory. The sharper the feedback the better.

[dpb5031]

> @chisag said:

> ... On thing I always hated when I taught full time was a student that said MB's helped them become a better ball striker. That is just the product of an undisciplined and lazy mind. BETTR SWINGS help you become a better ball striker and that can be accomplished with a full set of hybrid irons. I am always amazed that players who claim to be decent golfers can't see the difference in ball flight and spin with ANY iron. While the feeling of missing my 588TT's is more muted than missing my Z Forged MB's, it is still there and I can absolutely tell I missed the center of my 588T's and of course I know when I take a less than ideal swing without a MB stinging my hands.

>

>

"...undisciplined and lazy minds"? Really? Gotta disagree!

 

True blades can promote favorable impact dynamics for developing players who possess good athleticism and feel. It's not that you can't feel poor strikes with GIs and SGIs, it's that the feedback is more precise with true blades, and their unforgiving nature requires you to do MORE things right to produce decent ball flights.

 

SGI and GI irons cover swing flaws and still help the player elevate and advance the ball. Steep, scoopy, dumped, cast, toe, heel, etc. get bailed out to a much greater degree than with a true blade. That's great for scoring, not always great for developing and/or fine tuning the swing. A tiny MB blade is more demanding and requires better swing and impact dynamics including angle of attack, precision of strike, face angle at impact, and turf interaction to produce any kind of decent flight. Kinda like the Tour Striker training aid. (We've been 'round the horn on this already in other threads ?)

 

I'm not saying it's a panacea or that it's gonna work for everyone, but some can benefit. Not sure why you would characterize anyone as undisciplined and having a lazy mind for doing something in an effort to improve?

 

For the better player with a keen sense of feel, the precise feedback of a tiny thin-soled blade can help refine swing and strike quality. I have found it very helpful when practicing, especially into a net where I have to rely almost entirely on feel.

 

I PLAY i200s on the course because they bail me out on my less than perfect strikes and ultimately help me score my best. They're great clubs and do what they're designed to do, but they don't provide the precise and nuanced feedback of the MP blades that I occasionally use to fine-tune my ballstriking in practice. Currently a +.4 index FWIW

 

[md_mueller]

Based on your description of your game and tendencies (high swing speed, thin tendency, tendency to dig, and 180 yd carry with 31 degree club), the blades will likely lead to worse shots with the same level of thin strikes, "diggier" turf interaction, and probably a 5-10 yd distance reduction club to club. That is everything being equal. However, as others have notes, many respond differently to the smaller shape of blades and they could possibly lead to more consistent strikes. My guess would be that something like a z785 seems to make more sense but when has sense come into golf, ha.

[Tree Levino]

> @mtharpRR09 said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @mtharpRR09 said:

> > > I'm a mid-handicapper as well and have gone back and forth from blades to cavity backs several times over the years. The main thing that I've found with the blades is that I loved the feedback that I got from them. I felt that they made me a better ball striker from heel to toe (x-y axis). The problem that I've found with the blades is that they are very unforgiving as the strike moved up on the face (z axis). Low strikes were exactly the same as a cavity back (Thin to win!). I found that hitting a ball just slightly fat was punished pretty severely on distance. You stated that you can get pretty steep with your Mizuno JPX900F so that's something to think about. It sounds like you do have a lot of swing speed so that will help with those strikes. Bottom line, play what you like. Don't play what golf manufacturers tell you to play.

> >

> > Gotta say I disagree with this massively. Thin is punished severely with a proper blade in comparison to a cavity and fat shots don't go anywhere with any club. The difference you are feeling is likely due to sole grind. Many blades, especially older ones, have very sharp leading edges which will dig. A Ping cavity back has massive bounce. In that case you may brush the ground into the ball however you can still chunk a Ping. I actually hit multiple shots with a Ping iBlade vs a Mizuno MP5 on a par 3 earlier this year and the only fat shot I hit was with the Ping. Hit the MP5 much better. Basically, you need a grind that works for your swing and hitting it fat is never going to go well.

>

> **If your path is in-to-out then a high bounce club of any type will always dig before the ball no matter what type of leading edge you have.** I have an in-to-out path and I have always found that lower bounce irons/wedges work best for me. If you are out-to-in then you will catch ball first and this is where the feel thing comes into effect.

 

That’s got to be one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on here. Go tell the Ping staff players that they’re chunking every shot due to their path and bounce.

[NoTalentLefty]

I like cavity backs.....

[BiggErn]

Whichever you think look the coolest.

[BogeyParBogey]

I recently picked up MP-4s and am not a good golfer, but am doing fine with them.

 

I'm coming from 716 AP2s and have averaged a 46 this year on my work league course. After a few range sessions and rounds at the local executive course I shot 43 on the work league course. Who'd have figured? Iron choice seems to make very little difference to my score. If I can keep the driver in playable spots and my wedge game is ok the score takes care of itself. I hit 3/5 GIR with the MP-4s! That said I'm gaming them because I like them not because I think I will shoot better scores. If my play does actually improve then that is a bonus.

 

That said I swing much slower than the OP and imagine my game is polar opposite different. Use what you like and enjoy your time on the course!

 

Dave

[petep1980]

The biggest difference with blades vs game improvements is that I now miss short instead of long. I would rather miss short.

[BiggErn]

> @petep1980 said:

> The biggest difference with blades vs game improvements is that I now miss short instead of long. I would rather miss short.

 

Long isn’t a “miss” it’s you choosing the wrong club.

[howellhandmade]

It took a while to get there, but my MP18 set is 5/6 fli-hi, 7/8 MMC, and 9/PW MB. In 9/PW the MBs reward me with feel more than they punish me on mishits. Which is two clubs higher than most seem to split the set, but as Dirty Harry said, a (10 hci) man’s got to know his limitations.

[chippa13]

Pure folly to practice with something other than what one plays with on the course. I laugh at the "focus" and "truer feedback" bunch.

[mtharpRR09]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @mtharpRR09 said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @mtharpRR09 said:

> > > > I'm a mid-handicapper as well and have gone back and forth from blades to cavity backs several times over the years. The main thing that I've found with the blades is that I loved the feedback that I got from them. I felt that they made me a better ball striker from heel to toe (x-y axis). The problem that I've found with the blades is that they are very unforgiving as the strike moved up on the face (z axis). Low strikes were exactly the same as a cavity back (Thin to win!). I found that hitting a ball just slightly fat was punished pretty severely on distance. You stated that you can get pretty steep with your Mizuno JPX900F so that's something to think about. It sounds like you do have a lot of swing speed so that will help with those strikes. Bottom line, play what you like. Don't play what golf manufacturers tell you to play.

> > >

> > > Gotta say I disagree with this massively. Thin is punished severely with a proper blade in comparison to a cavity and fat shots don't go anywhere with any club. The difference you are feeling is likely due to sole grind. Many blades, especially older ones, have very sharp leading edges which will dig. A Ping cavity back has massive bounce. In that case you may brush the ground into the ball however you can still chunk a Ping. I actually hit multiple shots with a Ping iBlade vs a Mizuno MP5 on a par 3 earlier this year and the only fat shot I hit was with the Ping. Hit the MP5 much better. Basically, you need a grind that works for your swing and hitting it fat is never going to go well.

> >

> > **If your path is in-to-out then a high bounce club of any type will always dig before the ball no matter what type of leading edge you have.** I have an in-to-out path and I have always found that lower bounce irons/wedges work best for me. If you are out-to-in then you will catch ball first and this is where the feel thing comes into effect.

>

> That’s got to be one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on here. Go tell the Ping staff players that they’re chunking every shot due to their path and bounce.

 

Yeah I went back and read what I wrote and it didn't really explain what I was trying to say very well lol. What I meant to say was that if your miss is fat with an in-to-out club path typically a higher bounce sole will hurt more than help. I am pretty in-to-out and have found that lower bounce soles mitigate fat shots for me when I get too far to the inside. The opposite would be true for a golfer with an out-to-in path typically. Fat shots happen on different sides of the ball depending on club path (not including high-handicappers here, talking about low-mid handicaps). I am fully aware that there are manufacturers that have lots of bounce on their clubs and by no means am I disproving their logic. But if I’m not mistaken Ping offers grinding options through their WRX program and I would bet a lot of $$ that most of their tour pros don’t play stock grinds.

 

 

[dpb5031]

> @chippa13 said:

> Pure folly to practice with something other than what one plays with on the course. I laugh at the "focus" and "truer feedback" bunch.

 

@chippa13 , maybe take a break from laughing and read what's been posted above in response to @chisag ? Besides your condescending "laughter" and opinion that it's "folly," you've said nothing of substance to support your claims.

 

I DO NOT advocate playing blades for anyone other than elite level ams or pros if scoring is the primary objective. I'm a scratch player, play a lot of tournament golf and money matches, and I do not "play" blades, nor do I really put much credence into the added "focus" claims. My Pings definitely help me out on less than perfect swings and I can focus with them just fine on the course.

 

That said, practicing with a demanding thin soled blade can be beneficial in developing good swing mechanics for the multiple reasons I've stated in my previous post above. Ya just cant fake it with a blade, whereas most variations of modern GI clubs are designed to cover your a$$ and mask swing flaws.

 

Too steep, we've got wide soles to prevent excessive digging, miss sweet spot, we've got perimeter weighting and more consistent ball speeds across the face, deliver a less than square to path clubface and high MOI will minimize clubface twisting, hit thin and the low COG helps you still get it airborne, etc., etc.

 

Picking up an MB 6 or 7 iron for <$20 in an online auction can be a pretty inexpensive and effective training aid. Not a bad idea to get one with your shaft of preference as well. Learn how to effectively produce good and consistent ball flights and divot patterns with that tiny MB 6 iron and I guarantee it'll feel like cheating when you go back to your "more helpful" GI irons. The skills and mechanics are 100% transferable.

[bigred90gt]

When I went from players cavity (Hogan Apex Edge Pro) to blades (Mizuno MP68) I was about a 10 handicap. My ball striking did improve pretty quickly, but I dont necessarily attribute it to the blades, but instead the amount of time I put into practicing because the blades were harder to hit. I became a range rat. I would practice 2-3 times per week on the range (hitting around 200 balls per session) and play 3-5 rounds per week. You do feel the mishits more with blades, but feeling a mishit does not make you a better ball striker. Knowing the cause of the mishit and finding the fix for it does. I put a lot of effort into it. If you do not have the time to dedicate to fixing the flaws, your game will suffer from the switch.

 

That being said, the MP68 were not particularly difficult to hit. I have not tried any modern blades, but I imagine that Mizuno are still going to be one of the more forgiving blade models. I cant forsee them going backward in that regard. In addition to that, you would be hard pressed to beat the feel of a Mizuno one piece forging. They are incredible.

[chippa13]

Finally, a sensible post.

[MelloYello]

> @xyckin said:

> Just needed some feedback before I go into "extensive" testing. Started golf with a set of 2017 M2 irons, moved to Titleist 716 AP1s and now I'm currently a 12ish handicap playing JPX900 Forged with C-Taper 130X and I also have another set of MP18 MB (7-PW) MMC (5-6) MMC FliHi (4) which I picked up for a mad steal. I've dabbled with the MP18 set once in a while and found it to be much nicer feeling on the range but never took it out to the course. I've also never really figured out the gapping for the MP18 set. As for the JPX900F set, I hit my 7i about 180 carry with a decently soft landing, 115-120 mph driver. I'd say my weak link is shots around the green, full shots are decent. My main issues with irons would be low strikes from being too handsy in my swing which causes me to pull the club up and thin the ball. Aside from that, my iron shots are fairly straight with a slight draw. Cured my snap hook miss by shallowing my swing and using the +4 grips. Divots with my JPX900F are fairly deep I'd say.

>

> So the main question here is, what are the real downsides of moving to my MP18s? Do the pros outweigh the cons?

 

The downsides are probably mental, TBH. Mis-hits will be a bit more punishing through the hands. Everyone has experienced that aspect. That might be a bit more distracting while you're on the course trying to focus. But the differences in the outcomes of shots are likely trivial at best, or confined mostly to the longer irons.

 

If you're a 12 handicap now, you're reasonably good. That means you'll stay a 12 with blades, too. Nothing about your skill will change based on what equipment you're using. You know that. So from the standpoint of getting better, this isn't the way to do that and as a 12, you owe it to yourself to keep practicing. You're good but you have a lot of room to improve, too!

 

From the standpoint of your game, blades are probably a cosmetic thing in comparison to the 20 things you could do to practice real stuff and lower your handicap. I would say put your efforts toward those things and go with whatever irons you like the most.

 

I ended up with a set of small, forged CB's because that's what I like the most. But what I like is motivated by how many sorts of shots I can hit with them. Try various irons and you'll figure out pretty quickly the pro's and con's.

[dpb5031]

> @chippa13 said:

> Pure folly to practice with something other than what one plays with on the course. I laugh at the "focus" and "truer feedback" bunch.

 

Lol...let's try it this way. Why do you believe it to be "pure folly" to practice with something other than what you play on the course? There are all kinds of ways to practice effectively. What have I stated that you disagree with so vehemently? I've explained the benefits quite clearly, and I've never said you shouldn't still practice with the clubs you use on the course.

 

[chisag]

> @dpb5031 said:

> True blades can promote favorable impact dynamics for developing players who possess good athleticism and feel. It's not that you can't feel poor strikes with GIs and SGIs, it's that the feedback is more precise with true blades, and their unforgiving nature requires you to do MORE things right to produce decent ball flights.

>

> SGI and GI irons cover swing flaws and still help the player elevate and advance the ball. Steep, scoopy, dumped, cast, toe, heel, etc. get bailed out to a much greater degree than with a true blade. That's great for scoring, not always great for developing and/or fine tuning the swing. A tiny MB blade is more demanding and requires better swing and impact dynamics including angle of attack, precision of strike, face angle at impact, and turf interaction to produce any kind of decent flight.

>

> I'm not saying it's a panacea or that it's gonna work for everyone, but some can benefit. Not sure why you would characterize anyone as undisciplined and having a lazy mind for doing something in an effort to improve?

>

> For the better player with a keen sense of feel, the precise feedback of a tiny thin-soled blade can help refine swing and strike quality. I have found it very helpful when practicing, especially into a net where I have to rely almost entirely on feel.

>

 

... I really don't want this to go down the path of back and forth like all MB threads. I understand your opinion and obviously it works for you. I get that. Although I am a little surprised as a + index you can't tell when you miss your i200's or know when you take a less than perfect swing. My point is any good player should be able to tell by their ball flight, feel and knowledge of their swing that they hit it the way they wanted or they didn't. Pretty easy to tell that with i200's. Yes, admittedly it is even easier with MB's, hence my comment of the lazy and undisciplined mind. I would be willing to bet my house, not a single PGA/LPGA/Champions player that plays CB's uses MB's to hone their ball striking.

 

... That said, I don't doubt there are players that can fine tune their swings using MB's and they think it makes them a better ball striker. But as bigred90gt said above, it worked for him because it made him put in more range work. He could have improved just as much putting in the added range work with any club. Any player and especially a better player should absolutely know when they are "Steep, scoopy, dumped, cast, toe, heel, etc. get bailed out to a much greater degree than with a true blade." Annika was amazingly precise with consummate control using CB's. I don't believe anyone intentionally swings with more reckless abandon because they know they have help from their GI's anymore than they will swing with more control and precision just because they are using MB's. If they do, they are really just mentally weak and undisciplined. Obviously a LOT of golfers are just that or we would not have a thriving business of teaching the golf swing. I see player after player looking up and moving their body when they putt or flipping their wrists because they are not concentrating on their stroke, they are wishing the ball in the hole. A VERY easy fix but they are mentally lazy and undisciplined and keep making the same mistake.

 

... This is my last post on this subject as it has been discussed more than enough in other threads as well as this one. I will add that I base my opinion on teaching full time with thousands of students as my baseline, not just my own individual experience of having played MB's for many years.

 

[dpb5031]

> @chisag said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > True blades can promote favorable impact dynamics for developing players who possess good athleticism and feel. It's not that you can't feel poor strikes with GIs and SGIs, it's that the feedback is more precise with true blades, and their unforgiving nature requires you to do MORE things right to produce decent ball flights.

> >

> > SGI and GI irons cover swing flaws and still help the player elevate and advance the ball. Steep, scoopy, dumped, cast, toe, heel, etc. get bailed out to a much greater degree than with a true blade. That's great for scoring, not always great for developing and/or fine tuning the swing. A tiny MB blade is more demanding and requires better swing and impact dynamics including angle of attack, precision of strike, face angle at impact, and turf interaction to produce any kind of decent flight.

> >

> > I'm not saying it's a panacea or that it's gonna work for everyone, but some can benefit. Not sure why you would characterize anyone as undisciplined and having a lazy mind for doing something in an effort to improve?

> >

> > For the better player with a keen sense of feel, the precise feedback of a tiny thin-soled blade can help refine swing and strike quality. I have found it very helpful when practicing, especially into a net where I have to rely almost entirely on feel.

> >

>

> ... I really don't want this to go down the path of back and forth like all MB threads. I understand your opinion and obviously it works for you. I get that. Although I am a little surprised as a + index you can't tell when you miss your i200's or know when you take a less than perfect swing. My point is any good player should be able to tell by their ball flight, feel and knowledge of their swing that they hit it the way they wanted or they didn't. Pretty easy to tell that with i200's. Yes, admittedly it is even easier with MB's, hence my comment of the lazy and undisciplined mind. I would be willing to bet my house, not a single PGA/LPGA/Champions player that plays CB's uses MB's to hone their ball striking.

>

> ... That said, I don't doubt there are players that can fine tune their swings using MB's and they think it makes them a better ball striker. But as bigred90gt said above, it worked for him because it made him put in more range work. He could have improved just as much putting in the added range work with any club. Any player and especially a better player should absolutely know when they are "Steep, scoopy, dumped, cast, toe, heel, etc. get bailed out to a much greater degree than with a true blade." Annika was amazingly precise with consummate control using CB's. I don't believe anyone intentionally swings with more reckless abandon because they know they have help from their GI's anymore than they will swing with more control and precision just because they are using MB's. If they do, they are really just mentally weak and undisciplined. Obviously a LOT of golfers are just that or we would not have a thriving business of teaching the golf swing. I see player after player looking up and moving their body when they putt or flipping their wrists because they are not concentrating on their stroke, they are wishing the ball in the hole. A VERY easy fix but they are mentally lazy and undisciplined and keep making the same mistake.

>

> ... This is my last post on this subject as it has been discussed more than enough in other threads as well as this one. I will add that I base my opinion on teaching full time with thousands of students as my baseline, not just my own individual experience of having played MB's for many years.

>

 

You're either not actually reading what I wrote, otherwise just don't get it, or are being intentionally obtuse to suit your own narrative and previously condescending comments.

 

Did I ever say in my posts that I could not tell when I miss my i200s? Of course I can. Did I ever claim that a Tour pro, Annika or otherwise, cannot play world class golf with CBs? I never even claimed that blades were more precise/more accurate than CBs on the course. I simply said there can be a benefit to practicing with them. You claimed it was "folly".

 

I've qualified my statements by saying it may not work for everyone and that it's no "cure all." I've never claimed it to be a substitute for instruction or other methods of improvement. Just potentially a useful tool in practice for some.

 

A relatively athletic person trying to learn the game on his own can go to the range with GIs or SGIs and still launch the ball in a way that may seem adequate to the relatively uninformed. Without an instructor or video and some knowledge they can get away with some pretty horrific swing mechanics because the GI clubs generally provide significant help in covering the flaws. Help directionally, help with distance, help with elevation, and help with turf interaction to prevent excessive digging from not being sufficiently shallow, etc. The GI's help cover for these faults.

 

Put a blade in his hands and he might not get it airborne or may be digging 3 inch deep divots and losing 50% of expected carry distance. My point is that an athletically inclined individual with some determination will make adjustments...some intentionally, some sub-consciously to make those blades produce good ball flights and nice divot patterns. True MB blades don't let you get away with much. The kind of intensive feedback provided by a true blade can lead to improvement. And I'd be the first to acknowledge that it might only make some less athletic and less disciplined players more frustrated, so AGAIN, I've ...it's not for everybody, but it's precisely the reason the Tour Striker training aid has been praised and advocated/used by plenty of teaching pros and even Tour pros.

 

So, for a developing player with decent athleticism and good proprioception, it can accelerate the learning process toward better swing mechanics and better ball striking, and for the accomplished player it can be a fine-tuning training aid with absolutely ZERO downside. Certainly nothing "folly" about it even if it's not your cup of tea.