The Fitters Conundrum

[Adam C]

I have a question for all the fitters who hang out on this forum. Just wondering how different people handle this. Say you have a customer who you are fitting, who has a very counterproductive element in their swing. This move not only causes inconsistency, but also leads to a fitting alteration that falls into the extreme, say 4 degrees flat for lie angle. The question is, do you fit to the swing they came in with, or do you try and help them with the swing issues first? Does it matter if it's a simple swing fix, ie setup adjustment, vs. something more complicated?

Thought?

[third-times-a-charm]

There's nothing a fitter can do to correct that person's swing in the hour or two they're there. Plus, a person may just play their flaw forever and be content.

 

A fitter's job is to fit a person as they see it on the day the person paid to see the fitter.

 

It's also the person's job to decide to see or not see the fitter based on how they feel their swing it at any given time. Their money, their rules.

[jjfcpa]

This was not the answer I was expecting... Wow, get fit for a flaw in your swing and if you fix it, guess what, you no longer have equipment "fit" for your new swing. I understand the dilemma, but that is something I hadn't really given much thought to. So the rule should be get your swing "fixed" first, then get fit?

[North Butte]

> @jjfcpa said:

> This was not the answer I was expecting... Wow, get fit for a flaw in your swing and if you fix it, guess what, you no longer have equipment "fit" for your new swing. I understand the dilemma, but that is something I hadn't really given much thought to. So the rule should be get your swing "fixed" first, then get fit?

 

I've read plenty of things written by people after fittings where they talk about the fitter giving them a de facto swing lesson during the fitting. There's a description of just such a putter fitting that was posted this morning.

 

I think it happens all the time. I think combining swing changes and a club fitting into one 90-minute session is completely nuts and guaranteed to leave the golfer worse off in both swing technique and club selection than before the session. But some people are more promiscuous than me in when and how they seek out swing advice.

[Stuart_G]

> @jjfcpa said:

> This was not the answer I was expecting... Wow, get fit for a flaw in your swing and if you fix it, guess what, you no longer have equipment "fit" for your new swing. I understand the dilemma, but that is something I hadn't really given much thought to. So the rule should be get your swing "fixed" first, then get fit?

 

No that's not the rule at all. Getting the lie angles readjusted as the swing improves is really fairly trivial. It's no reason not to get fit.

[Tree Levino]

It's a fit not a lesson. I'm not a fitter but agree with the above from fitting in other sports. Fit what you see on the day, adjust as time goes. Preferably that player would get something bendable i.e Ping, Mizuno chromoly or forged.

[jll62]

Fit them for clubs that will help them play better in the moment, not at a future date that may never occur. A fitter is trained to fit clubs to the swing, not fix flaws in the swing. If a user has some idiosyncrasies in the swing, there's almost nothing a fitter can do in a short amount of time to fix the swing long term. For every customer who improves due to the swing changes you recommend, at least ten more will get worse because the root cause of their issues isn't actually understood and they end up working on the wrong things.

 

Your reputation as a fitter is on the line. Fit them to their current swing so they can play the best golf they're capable of at that moment in time. If you must do something, explain what changes to the equipment might be required as their swing improves over time, and hopefully offer to make those tweaks for them within the next year (lie tweaks, etc).

 

[davep043]

My opinion is that of an interested bystander to both "crafts", clubfitting and instruction. I think that while there is always some overlap in knowledge, they ARE separate skills. So a clubfitter can probably see swing issues, but may not be the best person to help correct those issues. Even if he doesn have teaching expertise, the player may not be interested in fixing anything, or in putting in the effort required to make a change. I don't see that a clubfitter has a real choice, his task is to fit clubs. A truly conscientious fitter might talk to the player about his swing faults, even suggest working on swing changes before fitting, but in the end its the player's decision.

[North Butte]

The real problem is, assuming he even succeeds in getting the golfer to tweak his setup and modify his swing there in the fitting there is nearly a zero chance that those changes will still be "sticking" with the golfer a month later when his custom clubs arrive.

[cmatthews77]

Great topic!! I'm also not a fitter but I'll give you an unasked for/unwanted opinion from a golf junkie consumer... I think what I would prefer is always information and choices. And it's greatly going to depend on the fitter and the trust the customer has with the fitter. For example... I'm a relatively good player (1.2 handicap) and still struggle to hit the ball solidly a lot of the time. I'm learned more about the golf swing now in the last 2-3 years (I'm 41) than I did growing up playing. With that said, if I were getting fit and I wasn't hitting the ball to my liking (who does in a fitting really?) if I trusted the fitter I would have no problem with the fitter telling me "ok based on X we should probably do Y. I can tell you though that you're struggling with Z and if we could correct that a little bit it would affect what we are going to do". Then ask the player if they work with a teacher, are planning to, etc. and essentially give them the option of taking your recommendation for the "fit" (assuming it's a fairly extreme scenario you're describing) vs trying to make a setup, swing, grip, etc. tweak and see what that does and how it affects the fitting.

 

As an example... I've played clubs (driver and irons) for an entire season that didn't really fit be but I chose based on how terribly I was swinging at the time (dropping weight and flex severely for example) to put speed and spin into the shot that as soon as I got back to playing the way I can play it no longer was optimal.

[wkuo3]

Do you go to a podiatrist for your kidney stone ?

A fitter should not mess with a client's golf swing unless , asked by the client to help and it's not involving overhauling the whole set up ( throw in a disclaimer that this is not what the client paid for thus, no liability involved).

Never, ever mess with a golfer's swing unless asked to help or get paid for. An imperfect golf swing presents in the very best of the best golfer's swing. Nothing wrong if it works for that golfer, and no one, no one should or could swing the same way out of a cookie cutter.

We're all built with a different physical frame and different temperament and logic path. If we all looked alike and act the same way then, we'll be eating the same food and drive the same car and do everything else the same way. Imperfection, by it's natural way has a better chance of succeeding than, perfection by molding to fit the cast.

As mentioned above, adjusting loft and lie and even changing the swing weight and shafts are "normal" over a course of time for a golfer.

Many of the local fitters offer lifetime adjustment for lie angle ( max. once per year ). Some offer a complimentary return trip for adjustment after the initial fitting.

There is no one time fitting of the golf equipment lasting for a lifetime. Heck, you won't even be wearing the same size of shoes all your life.

[North Butte]

I know lie angle is a crucial spec but if we're talking honest-to-goodness professional fitters, surely it goes far beyond lie angle?

 

For instance I play with plenty of guys who, if they didn't "flip" the club at impact they wouldn't be able to get the ball in the air at all. Sure that flip is a band-aid they've self-developed to work around more fundamental swing flaws. But these guys, man they OWN that flip. Or maybe it owns them, who's to say at this point!

 

They mostly use graphite or very lightweight iron shafts to help them be able to manipulate things before impact. Some of them have gotten pretty good at coordinating the whole mess. I'm trying to imagine a fitter who succeeds is "curing" their flip for the purposes of their fitting session. They could easily end up with heavier clubs that help tame down their overactive hands. But what would happen a few rounds later when they're back in their old habits except with clubs that fight against them?

[Bill Broderick]

Based on my recent fitting, as well as reviews that I've read about the fitters that I used, I'm nearly certain that in this situation, they would strongly recommend that the client invest in lessons before investing in new clubs. If the client insisted that he wanted to be fitted, they would then fit him based on his current swing. The shop does have someone who gives lessons. But, I've seen no evidence that they would push someone into taking lessons from them.

[scottyc15]

> @"North Butte" said:

> I know lie angle is a crucial spec but if we're talking honest-to-goodness professional fitters, surely it goes far beyond lie angle?

>

> For instance I play with plenty of guys who, if they didn't "flip" the club at impact they wouldn't be able to get the ball in the air at all. Sure that flip is a band-aid they've self-developed to work around more fundamental swing flaws. But these guys, man they OWN that flip. Or maybe it owns them, who's to say at this point!

>

> They mostly use graphite or very lightweight iron shafts to help them be able to manipulate things before impact. Some of them have gotten pretty good at coordinating the whole mess. I'm trying to imagine a fitter who succeeds is "curing" their flip for the purposes of their fitting session. They could easily end up with heavier clubs that help tame down their overactive hands. But what would happen a few rounds later when they're back in their old habits except with clubs that fight against them?

 

Great point.

[NewToGolf19]

This has been a really informative thread for me. I am a newish player (started 2 years ago in mid-life, not much time to play or practice but still enjoy the game and love to see improvement- who doesn't?). I've taken lessons and work on the swing when I can. However, I have a feeling that proper fitting equipment, while not a quick fix solution, will be helpful. I certainly understand that someone who has a completely irreproducible swing or one that needs considerable swing improvement would probably not benefit from a fitting, but what about those of us who have taken lessons, are earnestly trying to improve their swing, but still have a ways to go? Thanks!

[petep1980]

I went for a fitting here in Buffalo at Woods to Wedges. I had an issue with my swing. They explained my issue and said I would get more yardage and consistency from lessons and we didn't complete the fitting.

 

This was about a year ago. Since then I got the lessons, played more consistently and dropped 10 strokes.

 

They could have gone through and sold me clubs and I'd still be struggling beyond belief. Nope, they suggested the lessons and now they have a repeat customer.

[davep043]

> @petep1980 said:

> I went for a fitting here in Buffalo at Woods to Wedges. I had an issue with my swing. They explained my issue and said I would get more yardage and consistency from lessons and we didn't complete the fitting.

>

> This was about a year ago. Since then I got the lessons, played more consistently and dropped 10 strokes.

>

> They could have gone through and sold me clubs and I'd still be struggling beyond belief. Nope, they suggested the lessons and now they have a repeat customer.

I love to hear stories about a business that actually cares about the long-term customer, as opposed to today's profit.

 

[mantan]

That's like going into a tailor, him telling you to diet and exercise and and altering your pants tpo be 2 inches smaller in the waist.

 

That makes no sense at all. Get fit for what your swing IS and then adjust IF your swing actually changes.

[Hawkeye77]

> @"Bill Broderick" said:

> Based on my recent fitting, as well as reviews that I've read about the fitters that I used, I'm nearly certain that in this situation, they would strongly recommend that the client invest in lessons before investing in new clubs. If the client insisted that he wanted to be fitted, they would then fit him based on his current swing. The shop does have someone who gives lessons. But, I've seen no evidence that they would push someone into taking lessons from them.

 

I have yet to see a fitter that will only do a fitting if the client "insists" over the fitter's objections, lol.

 

Every situation is different, but most people getting fit aren't going to be magically different after getting lessons.

[rkelso184]

My experience.

Really wanted new clubs. Went and saw a really good fitter/ coach (drove 2.5 hours) he simply said "look I can sell you clubs BUT you have some issues with your swing that need fixing as when you do make changes you will need new irons again. I would rather work with your swing and when we are both comfortable we then fit you into irons. Your current irons are not going to hurt your game but your swing will" at the time I wanted Mizuno hot metal irons.

 

This was in May. I went back in July and got new irons (hot metal pros). I have dropped 8 shots since June)

 

My take from all of this is it's like the chicken and the egg. What is first. This is why I now feel a great coach who also is a great club fitter is so important.

 

In the past I have always said if you want to get fit for clubs this is all they should do as this is there job. I was wrong and I now understand why some pros have such great reputations and others don't.

[bluedot]

Many will not agree with this, but I've ALWAYS considered the lessons vs. fitting to be a false choice, almost no matter what swing flaws the person brings to the fitting. For the most part the basics of club fitting, specifically the correct lie angle, shaft length, and shaft flex are not really going to change much, if at all, based on swing changes alone. There are, of course, exceptions to this; players can be far too bent over or upright at address, and swings can get technically better and therefore faster, and so on. But for MOST players, the clubs that fit them properly BEFORE they fix their swing are still going to be the ones that fit them properly AFTER they fix their swing.

 

All of that said, I'm sure it is terribly difficult for a good, qualified fitter who also happens to really understand the golf swing (and those two things don't necessarily automatically go together, of course) to watch a player who has something seriously wrong with their swing, whether it's ball position, or alignment, or an over-the-top move, or whatever, and not try to make at least minimal corrections during the fitting session.

[aenemated]

If someone's swing is so flawed that there'd be some huge variance in a fit - I'd personally find it unethical for a fitter to ignore this and just take someone's money; knowing full well there'd be little noticeable benefit.

[arbeck]

> @bluedot said:

> Many will not agree with this, but I've ALWAYS considered the lessons vs. fitting to be a false choice, almost no matter what swing flaws the person brings to the fitting. For the most part the basics of club fitting, specifically the correct lie angle, shaft length, and shaft flex are not really going to change much, if at all, based on swing changes alone. There are, of course, exceptions to this; players can be far too bent over or upright at address, and swings can get technically better and therefore faster, and so on. But for MOST players, the clubs that fit them properly BEFORE they fix their swing are still going to be the ones that fit them properly AFTER they fix their swing.

>

> All of that said, I'm sure it is terribly difficult for a good, qualified fitter who also happens to really understand the golf swing (and those two things don't necessarily automatically go together, of course) to watch a player who has something seriously wrong with their swing, whether it's ball position, or alignment, or an over-the-top move, or whatever, and not try to make at least minimal corrections during the fitting session.

 

Shaft length and flex I agree with. Lie angle, not so much. If you tend to raise your hands at impact you could easily have a dynamic lie that's 5* toe down or more. A lesson with a pro could get that fixed. If I was fitting and a customer came in who needed more than a 4* lie angle adjustment. I'd probably advise them to get lessons rather than clubs.

[jjfcpa]

Wouldn't it be better if there was a chart of abilities that you could select from, then it would provide you with some clubs that would be suitable for that skill level. That would include shafts and lie angles. This would be the starting point. Then you'd go to a fitter who would customize the clubs to fit your particular skill level even further.

 

I know this sounds strange, but that's exactly what I did. I've had two previous fittings so I generally knew what would work for me. I custom ordered some Apex CF16's then went to Golf MD in Kansas City and had them evaluate the clubs for my abilities. The only thing they did was change the lie angle by 1 degree and suggested that I choke up about a 1/2 inch on the irons. They could have cut them down, but asked me if I wanted them cut down or just choke up. I suggested just choking up a bit because they felt that I might be able to take advantage of the full length of the club as my skills improved.

 

One of the advantages of this approach was that I picked a brand that I was comfortable with and it sort of validated my selection. He did say I might be able to make small improvements by using a different club but nothing that I would see in terms of actually improving my golf score. In my opinion, I got much better feedback from the Golf MD than I did from either of the two fittings that I had done.

[farmer]

> @petep1980 said:

> I went for a fitting here in Buffalo at Woods to Wedges. I had an issue with my swing. They explained my issue and said I would get more yardage and consistency from lessons and we didn't complete the fitting.

>

> This was about a year ago. Since then I got the lessons, played more consistently and dropped 10 strokes.

>

> They could have gone through and sold me clubs and I'd still be struggling beyond belief. Nope, they suggested the lessons and now they have a repeat customer.

 

That is outstanding from both a business and personal approach.

[Myherobobhope]

I went to a wishon fitter years ago... I was coming over the top. He told me so. He added weight to my driver and gave me drills to practice... he charged me nothing.

 

He’s now headed out of business. Retirement or given up, I’m not sure.

 

[SubaruWRX]

Don’t get a FITTING confused with LESSONS.

 

Fitter vs Teacher. Two different people and two different objectives.