The "Problem" with Fitting Facilities Fixed?

[Yarra]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Yarra said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > @jholz said:

> > > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > > @JCAG said:

> > > > > > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > And then there is folks like @jholz who think its just fine to take advantage of others investments, expenses and time, and dont pay for it. They have Golf as a hobby, the folks he wants to take advantage of tries to make a living of it.

> > > > > i would not play a round with a hustler like that, his attitude is not compatible with the spirit of Golf at all.

> > > > > Take a taxi cab and just walk away without paying, its the same thing...but i dont expect him to be able to see that.

> > > >

> > > > See response above. I apologize that my initial post didn't correctly state my opinion/stance. Sometimes people make mistakes.

> > >

> > > Its perfectly fine that you think many of this places is way to expensive, but its not for free to run a place like that where the customer can choose almost what ever that exist on the marked, and the OEMs is pushing out new models each year and make your inventory worthless. Someone has to pay the costs for that, and thats the Customer.

> > >

> > > All of those places offer the fitting as a separate service, its no obligations to buy anything, but you pay for the fitting service like any other service we can buy, so nobody is forced to accept their prices for clubs, but can walk out with the specs they wanted and buy where ever they want.

> > >

> > > I also think that their prices is way to high on several things, and would never force PURE shafts on all, but thats the business model a few of them has made as policy, we can like it or not, but do have other options, so i cant see the problem with it.

> > >

> > > Dont forget that Golf once was for those with more money than skills, and its still like that many places, so their business model is not meant for the average player with a average wallet at all, but customers who dont really care what it cost, they just buy what ever they want, just like some courses with green-fees most of us would not consider to pay unless it was a very special occasion and almost "a gift to our self".

> >

> > We really are in the wrong industry, buddy...

>

> If making lots of money was the target yes, then we should have been players, not club makers, but i never had the talent to be a good player myself, i started with Golf way to late in life, (above 40) and with a body that was anything but good after a career as Elite Freestyle skier in my younger days.

>

> Anyone who can make a decent living of what he likes to do is privileged, no matter what he does, and i have enjoyed every minute of it. Today im officially retired, but still enjoy helping others like in this forum, and i dont want to think about how many free hours without payment that has been, but i have enjoyed every minute of that too, so for me, this was never about money, but the Sport i became addicted to the very first day i tried it.

 

I am about 20 years behind you. I too enjoy every minute of it, but I do get irritated when I see a freeloader or a cheapo comes into my studio. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy helping people. But I have studio to run and a few employees to pay. There is no better feeling than hearing back from your customers about how they improve after that fitting session with me...

[aleph]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> What if there was a facility that had indoor/outdoor capabilities (like many TrueSpec locations have) but also had only OEM products but the entire range of the free/no-charge shafts? So for instance, if you walk into a place like Club Champion it's pretty well expected that you are going to be quoted full MSRP on the heads + full MSRP on the shafts + full MSRP on the grips + a build price. For many on here that is a sticking point that few can get past and they either opt for the free option elsewhere or choose to build it themselves from pieces found on the cheap here and there.

>

> So in my hypothetical scenario you would have two options where you buy the clubs at MSRP just as if you bought from anywhere else or if you really wanted piece of mind it would be MSRP + $160 or so to get them built perfectly while avoiding the upcharge of the buying the shafts and grips a la carte. Obviously this isn't perfect as there are some manufacturers (Mizuno, cough, cough) that refuse to sell their products grips loose so you might have to kind of take what you can get there, or other brands like Srixon where they offer a fair bit of product but they take a little while to get so you might be waiting a bit longer.

>

> What does the community think of this? I understand that a few of us here are still going to be of the mentality that they are allergic to retail pricing, but that's not really the clientele of a fitting studio. Do you think this is a good idea, bad idea? Just some thoughts I had the other day and wanted to write them down and share. For those in the industry most of us realize the upgrade is where the money is made, however, in this scenario it is hoped that the fit fees and the additional $160 is enough (for a collective of basically $260 per fit for a set of irons or short set and some wedges) is enough pure margin to offset the lower margin on equipment.

 

Yes, this is something that would be more in line with my thinking. After a trainee fitting a few years ago at TXG and receiving the quote for what I think was a stock shaft option at the time, there was definitely some sticker shock ("True Temper Project X Shaft Options - STOCK × 7 6.0 $623.00"). At $175 a head plus that plus grips, there is no way I'm spending that much no matter how skilled the fitter is. I understand that others have, after their fitting, ordered from the manufacturer/Golf Town/wherever and came back again to get other details sorted out.

[JCAG]

I was fortunate. I always messed around with clubmaking as a hobby. Even went to Ken Smith Clubmaking School in the early 70's. I made my living, and a good one, in high tech sales. When I was in my mid 40's (late 80's), the company I worked for was bought out. The buyer did not want the Sales and Marketing people. I was VP of Sales and I had shares in the company, so they bought me out. There I was mid 40's, no job, nice check in my pocket but feeling burned out in the high tech business. Professionally, I was at a crossroad in my life. I was considering options.

 

Well there was a fellow I knew who was also a home hobby clubmaker who then retired and had opened a small (1200sq ft) custom club shop. I used to hang around the shop and play golf with him. His wife was retiring and they wanted to move to a warmer climate so he offered to sell me his shop. The price was right. I had the money plus enough if I failed. My wife had a good job and was supportive of me. Well for the next 15 or so years I had a freaking ball. I expanded the business. Sales were great and increasing every year. I was making money and I loved every minute of it. I got qualified/certified by every clubmaking organization there was. I received several clubmaking, club fitting awards. I had the latest and greatest computer swing analyzers. I had every piece of equipment needed. I was an authorized fitter and clubmaker for several brands such as Aldila, etc. I had the golf business by the balls.

 

At age 60, my wife and I decided to retire and move to a warmer climate. My son had interest in buying my business but I started getting wary of the golf business in the late 90's. By 2000 the custom golf business was going down the toilet. OEM's were talking custom fitting. The Internet was becoming bigger. People became aware of what we were paying for materials and were screaming when they saw a 2-3 times markup. Anyone could buy components. Knockoffs ruled. A ton of garage/cellar clubmakers popped up. $249 for a "custom fit set of irons". Golf chats popped up with people telling others how to do things, where to get stuff, etc. I sold my business to a budding clubmaker who went the $249 set of custom fit irons route. It was turned it into a junk shop and closed up within 2 years.

 

I had a awesome freaking time in the golf business.......but I say the Internet killed it.

[phatchrisrules]

> @JCAG said:

> I was fortunate. I always messed around with clubmaking as a hobby. Even went to Ken Smith Clubmaking School in the early 70's. I made my living, and a good one, in high tech sales. When I was in my mid 40's (late 80's), the company I worked for was bought out. The buyer did not want the Sales and Marketing people. I was VP of Sales and I had shares in the company, so they bought me out. There I was mid 40's, no job, nice check in my pocket but feeling burned out in the high tech business. Professionally, I was at a crossroad in my life. I was considering options.

>

> Well there was a fellow I knew who was also a home hobby clubmaker who then retired and had opened a small (1200sq ft) custom club shop. I used to hang around the shop and play golf with him. His wife was retiring and they wanted to move to a warmer climate so he offered to sell me his shop. The price was right. I had the money plus enough if I failed. My wife had a good job and was supportive of me. Well for the next 15 or so years I had a freaking ball. I expanded the business. Sales were great and increasing every year. I was making money and I loved every minute of it. I got qualified/certified by every clubmaking organization there was. I received several clubmaking, club fitting awards. I had the latest and greatest computer swing analyzers. I had every piece of equipment needed. I was an authorized fitter and clubmaker for several brands such as Aldila, etc. I had the golf business by the balls.

>

> At age 60, my wife and I decided to retire and move to a warmer climate. My son had interest in buying my business but I started getting wary of the golf business in the late 90's. By 2000 the custom golf business was going down the toilet. OEM's were talking custom fitting. The Internet was becoming bigger. People became aware of what we were paying for materials and were screaming when they saw a 2-3 times markup. Anyone could buy components. Knockoffs ruled. A ton of garage/cellar clubmakers popped up. $249 for a "custom fit set of irons". Golf chats popped up with people telling others how to do things, where to get stuff, etc. I sold my business to a budding clubmaker who went the $249 set of custom fit irons route. It was turned it into a junk shop and closed up within 2 years.

>

> I had a awesome freaking time in the golf business.......but I say the Internet killed it.

 

I think this hits the nail on the head perfectly. I totally agree that the internet has made the consumer more knowledgeable but at the same time ruined many competent businesses. Nobody really wants to pay more for something than the value perceived, but at the same time, most people really are at the bottom of it more than a bit frugal. Most people also have a "this is easy" mentality. As you said, your budding clubmaker friend could make clubs but can they build on a slope, frequency match, swingweight, etc? Any CAN build a club, but can just anyone do it properly? Tying this together, you have places like eBay and other value sources like golfstealsanddeals buying liquidated product for literal pennies and turning around and trying to sell it for 1000% markup which is still less than $20 most of the time. I feel sorry for the club makers who partnered with Matrix as now you can get just about any Matrix shaft, even the super high cost Ozik TPHD with the $800+ MSRP is selling for maybe $250 on eBay....which is going to be well below cost.

 

The internet is a blessing and a curse. That's why I think going the OEM route, and playing their game with no inventory and pandering to the meticulous golfer who has picky specs is a way to kind of dip your toe into both pools. However, you will never beat the eBay game. Those who want to buy online and have no intention of buying from you aren't going to buy from you anyways. You could offer the clubs at $200 for the brand spanking new Epic 3000 2020 driver and they would still think you are ripping them off. It's in their blood never to pay full price. I distinctly remember when I worked big box golf retail talking to an older gentleman that had Ping Eye 2s with stiff steel shafts that wanted to change clubs but his first words out of his mouth after that were "son, I want graphite and to find out what's best for me. Another thing you should know is I have a budget of about $250 and I won't ever pay full price for anything." So I informed him that either he was either 1) looking at clubs that are several models old, in which case the heads and shafts are going to be wildly different from what I have here and it isn't a fair test of if they are going to fit him or 2) he was going to wait a couple of years until the clubs he is trying now are priced at that in the used market in which case his swing and speed might not reflect this certain product anyways. Needless to say he puttered around looking at irons for about an hour, asked a couple of employees their opinions on a few sets, had a club or two taped up and left them leaning against the sim wall and managed to leave the store without any one of the club guys ever really see him hit a shot or say thank you in less than 5 minutes.

[howellhandmade]

I believe that professionals deserve to be paid fairly for their work and expertise. And I don’t mind paying full retail prices to help a small business. I just need to stay out of the lane occupied by businesses that pay for massive advertising and overhead by massive upselling, and by customers who equate most expensive with best and won’t miss an extra couple grand here and there. I’m obviously not the only golfer who listened to the stories of performance gains through fitting/custom building, saved the money to buy a boutique fitted set, and wound up feeling like a mark. There are retailers — and not big box stores — who operate good fitting programs and will be happy with their fitting fee plus the regular markup from clubs built by the manufacturer. Which is the route I’ll be going when I need clubs again.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

here's the problem i see, for fitters to make a decent profit they need to sell the equipment they fit a player into. they often then tie themselves to a particular brand (s). those brands then send them testing equipment for free which the fitters need as the new stuff comes out. the problem then becomes the perception to the player that you may not get an honest fit if you simply want to play whatever fits you best, because the appearance becomes that the fitter is motivated to sell you the brand they are affiliated with.

 

if you want to compare a certain lineup of callaway, ping, and mizuno irons, and the fitter has callaway all over his studio and fits you into the apex pros, it leaves you second guessing the fitting. This is why i think its important for fitters to not just put someone into what you think works best, but to show it to the player through actual data and results.

[Yarra]

> @HoosierMizuno said:

> here's the problem i see, for fitters to make a decent profit they need to sell the equipment they fit a player into. they often then tie themselves to a particular brand (s). those brands then send them testing equipment for free which the fitters need as the new stuff comes out. the problem then becomes the perception to the player that you may not get an honest fit if you simply want to play whatever fits you best, because the appearance becomes that the fitter is motivated to sell you the brand they are affiliated with.

>

> if you want to compare a certain lineup of callaway, ping, and mizuno irons, and the fitter has callaway all over his studio and fits you into the apex pros, it leaves you second guessing the fitting. This is why i think its important for fitters to not just put someone into what you think works best, but to show it to the player through actual data and results.

 

While I agree with you, that fitters tend to push whatever products that they carry, there are more to it that you might not realize. It's not easy for small business such as these specialized fitting business to survive in this capitalism world...

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @HoosierMizuno said:

> here's the problem i see, for fitters to make a decent profit they need to sell the equipment they fit a player into. they often then tie themselves to a particular brand (s). those brands then send them testing equipment for free which the fitters need as the new stuff comes out. the problem then becomes the perception to the player that you may not get an honest fit if you simply want to play whatever fits you best, because the appearance becomes that the fitter is motivated to sell you the brand they are affiliated with.

>

> if you want to compare a certain lineup of callaway, ping, and mizuno irons, and the fitter has callaway all over his studio and fits you into the apex pros, it leaves you second guessing the fitting. This is why i think its important for fitters to not just put someone into what you think works best, but to show it to the player through actual data and results.

 

Do you really think a Shop get their fitting and demo clubs for free?

Shafts too?

Get real

[phatchrisrules]

> @Yarra said:

> > @HoosierMizuno said:

> > here's the problem i see, for fitters to make a decent profit they need to sell the equipment they fit a player into. they often then tie themselves to a particular brand (s). those brands then send them testing equipment for free which the fitters need as the new stuff comes out. the problem then becomes the perception to the player that you may not get an honest fit if you simply want to play whatever fits you best, because the appearance becomes that the fitter is motivated to sell you the brand they are affiliated with.

> >

> > if you want to compare a certain lineup of callaway, ping, and mizuno irons, and the fitter has callaway all over his studio and fits you into the apex pros, it leaves you second guessing the fitting. This is why i think its important for fitters to not just put someone into what you think works best, but to show it to the player through actual data and results.

>

> While I agree with you, that fitters tend to push whatever products that they carry, there are more to it that you might not realize. It's not easy for small business such as these specialized fitting business to survive in this capitalism world...

>

>

 

I don't think it's so much pushing product but more of a getting comfortable with the product because you know it so well and you see it working a lot. Let's say you are brand agnostic and carry all the big boys but you have a lot of people wanting Taylormade or Callaway it becomes a bit of a vicious circle because you are pulling these so often you see what they can and can't do really, really well. While some other really great product might just sit there and not get pulled. I know I have been guilty of this in the past. I would tend to overlook Titleist product because it was harder to nail it down precisely as they had something in irons that was either too forgiving or not enough. While you see the incredible ball speed the Apex CF16 was creating and also had a head that was kind of a catch-all that looked good, felt pretty well okay, and performed for a wide range of players. Not to mention Callaway running the gamut of grips and shafts while Titleist is still pecularily charging an arm and a leg for Modus and KBS while everyone else has had them for free for years. Titleist finally got smart a couple of years back and they have pretty well fixed this now with the introduction of AP3/T200, the 718 TMB, and CNCPT irons and introducing a few lighterwight Nippon options (880-1050), but I still feel it hurts them to have so many options available but they are overlooking some of the most popular shafts on the market right now in the Modus 120, KBS Tour, and C-Taper product with their connection to True Temper/Project X.

 

You get comfy and that's not necessarily pushing product it's getting to the homerun and close of the sale faster because you know what you can do with it versus dabbling at it and hoping it might work.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @HoosierMizuno said:

> > here's the problem i see, for fitters to make a decent profit they need to sell the equipment they fit a player into. they often then tie themselves to a particular brand (s). those brands then send them testing equipment for free which the fitters need as the new stuff comes out. the problem then becomes the perception to the player that you may not get an honest fit if you simply want to play whatever fits you best, because the appearance becomes that the fitter is motivated to sell you the brand they are affiliated with.

> >

> > if you want to compare a certain lineup of callaway, ping, and mizuno irons, and the fitter has callaway all over his studio and fits you into the apex pros, it leaves you second guessing the fitting. This is why i think its important for fitters to not just put someone into what you think works best, but to show it to the player through actual data and results.

>

> Do you really think a Shop get their fitting and demo clubs for free?

> Shafts too?

> Get real

 

i'd assume there is a discount or special pricing for fitting centers who align themselves with certain brands, but i could be wrong.

[Bill Broderick]

After a long layoff and a large weight loss, I began playing again about 2 years ago. Very quickly, it became apparent that the clubs that I had played with 13 years prior were not the clubs for me. However, I was concerned that I was still trying to "find" my swing. Having previously played at nearly 400 lbs, my old swing was somewhat unorthodox (although surprisingly successful at the time). Since I no longer had an extra 200 lbs to swing around, I needed to get back to basics. I was somewhat concerned that going for a fitting at that time may have been too soon. But, at the same time, I knew that what I was using was definitely wrong for me. Although I didn't know what would be best for me, I was pretty sure that I couldn't go wrong the Ping. I ended up going to a Ping only fitter (they were on Ping's website as a top fitter) at a local municipal course. I described my situation to him and he told me not to wait. He had a fitting fee which would be waived if I bought from him (which I did).

Now, two years later, I started taking lessons from a Golf Digest top 25 instructor. After about my 5th lesson, he told me that he thought that I could probably benefit from a softer shaft on my irons. I did some research on local fitters and found an independent fitter on Long Island (Pete's Golf Shop) who I couldn't find any negative comments about. At my next lesson, I brought up his previous comment and asked if he thought that I should go for a club fitting. He said "Yes. Go to Pete's Golf Shop get fitted by Woody or Rob". Pete's charges $135 each for an iron fitting and a wood fitting. There is no credit against the fitting charge if you make a purchase. They say that their goal is to put you into the best club for you and if that means keeping and/or making a small modification to your existing club, with no additional sale, so be it (that turned out to be an accurate statement).

 

I figured that even though the instructor didn't say anything about my woods, I would get fitted for both. I made a appointment for an iron fitting that Friday and a wood fitting on Sunday. We went through the iron fitting on Friday night. By the end, it looked like I was probably going to go with a set of Ping G410 irons with a Alta CB graphite shaft. During the fitting, I had mentioned that I had been up since about 5am that day in order to walk 18 holes at about 6:30am and was pretty tired. When I came in on Sunday, Rob had the same iron that I had been fitted for waiting for me to use to warm up while he took my woods to get baseline measurements. When he returned with my woods, he commented that I was hitting the irons better than I had on Friday night. I proceeded to hit my driver. After a few swings, he said "Based on what I learned on Friday, I don't think that head is heavy enough for you. Let me try something". He proceeded to go in the back and change the weight in the club to a heavier one. I immediately hit it farther & straighter. We then tried a few different new drivers to see how they compared and quickly agreed that I didn't need a new driver. He then made similar adjustments to my fairway wood, this time adding and then taking out a little of the weight he added and we both agreed that my woods are fine for me.

 

He then said that, after seeing the results of my iron warm up, he'd like to go back to the irons again now that I was more rested than I was Friday night. We ended up trying 3 or 4 different shafts that we hadn't tried on Friday night as well as a couple different brands of heads. We still ended up with the same lie and length of the G410's. But, with a completely different shaft (recoil 780ES) than we had planned on based on Friday night's fitting.

 

He ended up not charging me for the wood fitting (or for the weight adjustments that he made to my woods), because he said that we didn't do a full wood fitting and didn't charge me any extra for what was essentially a second iron fitting. I paid the $135 for an iron fitting plus the standard retail for the irons. Personally, I wound have had absolutely no problem if he had charged me for the wood fitting. I took up his time and used he expertise to learn that I just needed a little more weight in the heads of my existing clubs.

 

To me, this was exactly what a club fitting should be. It was a service. The goal of that service was to make sure that I was using the clubs that are best for me, regardless of whether that resulted in a sale or not. When I told my instructor about the results of the fitting, he told me that Rob ended at Pete's after quitting his previous job as a fitter because they were giving him a hard time about not selling enough clubs as the result of his fittings. At Pete's, not selling a set of clubs is a perfectly acceptable outcome of a fitting.

[Yarra]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Yarra said:

> > > @HoosierMizuno said:

> > > here's the problem i see, for fitters to make a decent profit they need to sell the equipment they fit a player into. they often then tie themselves to a particular brand (s). those brands then send them testing equipment for free which the fitters need as the new stuff comes out. the problem then becomes the perception to the player that you may not get an honest fit if you simply want to play whatever fits you best, because the appearance becomes that the fitter is motivated to sell you the brand they are affiliated with.

> > >

> > > if you want to compare a certain lineup of callaway, ping, and mizuno irons, and the fitter has callaway all over his studio and fits you into the apex pros, it leaves you second guessing the fitting. This is why i think its important for fitters to not just put someone into what you think works best, but to show it to the player through actual data and results.

> >

> > While I agree with you, that fitters tend to push whatever products that they carry, there are more to it that you might not realize. It's not easy for small business such as these specialized fitting business to survive in this capitalism world...

> >

> >

>

> I don't think it's so much pushing product but more of a getting comfortable with the product because you know it so well and you see it working a lot. Let's say you are brand agnostic and carry all the big boys but you have a lot of people wanting Taylormade or Callaway it becomes a bit of a vicious circle because you are pulling these so often you see what they can and can't do really, really well. While some other really great product might just sit there and not get pulled. I know I have been guilty of this in the past. I would tend to overlook Titleist product because it was harder to nail it down precisely as they had something in irons that was either too forgiving or not enough. While you see the incredible ball speed the Apex CF16 was creating and also had a head that was kind of a catch-all that looked good, felt pretty well okay, and performed for a wide range of players. Not to mention Callaway running the gamut of grips and shafts while Titleist is still pecularily charging an arm and a leg for Modus and KBS while everyone else has had them for free for years. Titleist finally got smart a couple of years back and they have pretty well fixed this now with the introduction of AP3/T200, the 718 TMB, and CNCPT irons and introducing a few lighterwight Nippon options (880-1050), but I still feel it hurts them to have so many options available but they are overlooking some of the most popular shafts on the market right now in the Modus 120, KBS Tour, and C-Taper product with their connection to True Temper/Project X.

>

> You get comfy and that's not necessarily pushing product it's getting to the homerun and close of the sale faster because you know what you can do with it versus dabbling at it and hoping it might work.

 

If you are talking about a decent, specialized club fitting shop, this might be true. However, the big box stores (and their staffs) usually push products that gives them the highest commission. Or whatever they wanna clear out.

 

And the bad fitters in my region will typically push the newest because it's an easy sell. Everybody is looking for the newest stuffs. When I say bad fitters I mean the kinds who proclaimed themselves as fitter just because they have access to launch monitor and 'can' read launch monitors numbers without understanding anything else.

 

Worse still, some who have money to burn and access to buy some 'stocks' will call themselves fitters... if only there are standards in this industry