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> @MaxBuck said:

> Not sure if this has been asked before, but what's the reason for the variability in course closure times after overseeing?

 

Money. Longer closure less the cash register is ringing.

 

While that’s one factor, the bigger reason is seed germination. The seed needs to be able to pop for there to be any benefit, and usually that means using a lot of water to; keep the seed moist, and work it beneath the canopy. With a course closure I can run all the water I want/need and not have to worry about golfers.

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> @BNGL said:

> > @lhahn said:

> > Any experience on seeding brand new greens with cores from existing ones? My course is undergoing renos at the moment and is replacing three holes. The architect (or maybe it was the super who made the decision) used the cores from our recent aeration instead of seeding from scratch. Never heard of this practice and was curious.

> Yeah We have created nursery greens and patched some areas with cores removed from aeration. As long as they don’t dry out it should work.

>

 

Two years ago we created two new practice greens using plugs from our existing greens.

 

Our superintendent said this was the only way to get our practice greens the same as our greens out on the course.

 

One of the greens is a massive chipping green and the other is a bunker green.

 

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> @Golfnuck said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @lhahn said:

> > > Any experience on seeding brand new greens with cores from existing ones? My course is undergoing renos at the moment and is replacing three holes. The architect (or maybe it was the super who made the decision) used the cores from our recent aeration instead of seeding from scratch. Never heard of this practice and was curious.

> > Yeah We have created nursery greens and patched some areas with cores removed from aeration. As long as they don’t dry out it should work.

> >

>

> Two year's ago we created two new practice greens using plugs from our existing greens.

>

> Our superintendent said this was the only way to get our practice greens the same as our greens out on the course.

>

> One of the greens is a massive chipping green and the other is a bunker green.

 

Greens look great! I was worried because our new greens look a bit rough and bumpy but I guess they need to grow out a lot more before they can start rolling them. Thanks for the info Andy. Have you been out at PG recently with all the construction?

 

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> @lhahn said:

> > @Golfnuck said:

> > > @BNGL said:

> > > > @lhahn said:

> > > > Any experience on seeding brand new greens with cores from existing ones? My course is undergoing renos at the moment and is replacing three holes. The architect (or maybe it was the super who made the decision) used the cores from our recent aeration instead of seeding from scratch. Never heard of this practice and was curious.

> > > Yeah We have created nursery greens and patched some areas with cores removed from aeration. As long as they don’t dry out it should work.

> > >

> >

> > Two year's ago we created two new practice greens using plugs from our existing greens.

> >

> > Our superintendent said this was the only way to get our practice greens the same as our greens out on the course.

> >

> > One of the greens is a massive chipping green and the other is a bunker green.

>

> Greens look great! I was worried because our new greens look a bit rough and bumpy but I guess they need to grow out a lot more before they can start rolling them. Thanks for the info Andy. Have you been out at PG recently with all the construction?

>

 

No I have stayed away from Point Grey this year.

 

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>

> No I have stayed away from Point Grey this year.

>

Not a bad idea. But also kind of cool right now to see the holes being built from scratch.

 

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Tsi3 16.5* Tensei Raw White 75x

TM P770 3i Velocore Black HB 9x

Mizuno YORO MP5 4-PW - Modus 120x

TM MG 51*, 55*

TM Hi Toe 64*

Yamada Emperor 34"

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> @BNGL said:

> > @MaxBuck said:

> > Not sure if this has been asked before, but what's the reason for the variability in course closure times after overseeing?

>

> Money. Longer closure less the cash register is ringing.

>

> While that’s one factor, the bigger reason is seed germination. The seed needs to be able to pop for there to be any benefit, and usually that means using a lot of water to; keep the seed moist, and work it beneath the canopy. With a course closure I can run all the water I want/need and not have to worry about golfers.

 

I cannot believe with today's technology you still have to change the grass from summer bermuda to winter rye.

 

That is a massive amount of resources not to mention the down time.

 

We are lucky up here in the Northwest as we do not change our grass from summer to winter.

 

Of course it rains 100% of the time up here so no-one golfs anyways.

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> @Golfnuck said:

> > @BNGL said:

> > > @MaxBuck said:

> > > Not sure if this has been asked before, but what's the reason for the variability in course closure times after overseeing?

> >

> > Money. Longer closure less the cash register is ringing.

> >

> > While that’s one factor, the bigger reason is seed germination. The seed needs to be able to pop for there to be any benefit, and usually that means using a lot of water to; keep the seed moist, and work it beneath the canopy. With a course closure I can run all the water I want/need and not have to worry about golfers.

>

> I cannot believe with today's technology you still have to change the grass from summer bermuda to winter rye.

>

> That is a massive amount of resources not to mention the down time.

>

> We are lucky up here in the Northwest as we do not change our grass from summer to winter.

>

> Of course it rains 100% of the time up here so no-one golfs anyways.

 

Ironically most of the seed used to overseed, particularly in the southeast, comes from the PNW.

 

As far as tech is concerned what do you mean? Hybrid bermuda strains? They are working on it, and truthfully theres places now that just paint or will only seed tees to help facilitate divot repair. But we all know that it takes some resources and down time to seed a golf course for winter, but all of that work is really well worth it particularly in heavy tourist areas such as Orlando (which doesn't usually get cold enough to facilitate the need for overseeding, the plant will slow down for a couple weeks or so, but when pretty much every place seeds and we are charging 175 a round peak season you can not have off color turf, so we would make everything back and then some from tourist play which was people that were visiting from the snowy parts of the country.

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I posted a while back about our super leaving, and our course choosing to leave the position open until after the first of the year. He has been gone less than a month, and the condition of the greens is going down hill. We have a super from another course coming over a couple mornings a week, and he applied granular fertilizer, and he overlapped too close, and damaged the greens. Also, in order to try to get out of checking the greens in the afternoons, they have over watered the greens, and that has damaged the greens. We have a member- guest coming up, so they haven't solid tined them to try to get air into them. I was against the delay in hiring a qualified super, and now the course is suffering. It has been unseasonably hot and dry in central NC, and it was exactly the wrong time to drop the ball on bentgrass greens.

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> @caniac6 said:

> I posted a while back about our super leaving, and our course choosing to leave the position open until after the first of the year. He has been gone less than a month, and the condition of the greens is going down hill. We have a super from another course coming over a couple mornings a week, and he applied granular fertilizer, and he overlapped too close, and damaged the greens. Also, in order to try to get out of checking the greens in the afternoons, they have over watered the greens, and that has damaged the greens. We have a member- guest coming up, so they haven't solid tined them to try to get air into them. I was against the delay in hiring a qualified super, and now the course is suffering. It has been unseasonably hot and dry in central NC, and it was exactly the wrong time to drop the ball on bentgrass greens.

 

That is a real bummer my friend...let me know if I can help I doubt there is much I can do from a keyboard but feel free to reach out

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> @BNGL said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > I posted a while back about our super leaving, and our course choosing to leave the position open until after the first of the year. He has been gone less than a month, and the condition of the greens is going down hill. We have a super from another course coming over a couple mornings a week, and he applied granular fertilizer, and he overlapped too close, and damaged the greens. Also, in order to try to get out of checking the greens in the afternoons, they have over watered the greens, and that has damaged the greens. We have a member- guest coming up, so they haven't solid tined them to try to get air into them. I was against the delay in hiring a qualified super, and now the course is suffering. It has been unseasonably hot and dry in central NC, and it was exactly the wrong time to drop the ball on bentgrass greens.

>

> That is a real bummer my friend...let me know if I can help I doubt there is much I can do from a keyboard but feel free to reach out

 

I'm hoping they might aerify after the member guest. There should should be plenty of time in Oct. for the greens to recover, and it's not like the greens are ruined, but there are places on some of the greens that are showing damage. I've been a member here for 10 years, and I have a turf degree from NC State, and I have never second guessed or butted in with my opinion. It's a real shame because our course has never had much of a budget, but we have always had good greens.

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> @caniac6 said:

> I posted a while back about our super leaving, and our course choosing to leave the position open until after the first of the year. He has been gone less than a month, and the condition of the greens is going down hill. We have a super from another course coming over a couple mornings a week, and he applied granular fertilizer, and he overlapped too close, and damaged the greens. Also, in order to try to get out of checking the greens in the afternoons, they have over watered the greens, and that has damaged the greens. We have a member- guest coming up, so they haven't solid tined them to try to get air into them. I was against the delay in hiring a qualified super, and now the course is suffering. It has been unseasonably hot and dry in central NC, and it was exactly the wrong time to drop the ball on bentgrass greens.

 

BNGL might know better but I have never heard of a granular fertilizer being applied to greens. In fact the worst 2 butt chewing outs I have ever seen was when 2 people forgot to put the flap down on the walk spreader while putting down granular on the rough and some got on the green.

 

Is your course managed independently? I ask because some of the big management companies would send a corporate agronomist out to help for a while if need.

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> @mallrat said:

> > @caniac6 said:

> > I posted a while back about our super leaving, and our course choosing to leave the position open until after the first of the year. He has been gone less than a month, and the condition of the greens is going down hill. We have a super from another course coming over a couple mornings a week, and he applied granular fertilizer, and he overlapped too close, and damaged the greens. Also, in order to try to get out of checking the greens in the afternoons, they have over watered the greens, and that has damaged the greens. We have a member- guest coming up, so they haven't solid tined them to try to get air into them. I was against the delay in hiring a qualified super, and now the course is suffering. It has been unseasonably hot and dry in central NC, and it was exactly the wrong time to drop the ball on bentgrass greens.

>

> BNGL might know better but I have never heard of a granular fertilizer being applied to greens. In fact the worst 2 butt chewing outs I have ever seen was when 2 people forgot to put the flap down on the walk spreader while putting down granular on the rough and some got on the green.

>

> Is your course managed independently? I ask because some of the big management companies would send a corporate agronomist out to help for a while if need.

 

Granular fertilizer on greens is very common, and like Augustgolf said, there is granular fertilizer that is "green grade". We did have a management company for a short while, but their only function was to make money for the managenment company. We do have a loose relationship with a course about 20 miles away, and their super is coming over several mornings a week. It was this super that applied the fertilizer.

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I’ll use a combination of both. Our weekly greens spray usually contains; a mix of fertilizer, surfactants, and growth regulator. A typical mix would look something this;

 

*THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE AT YOUR COURSE OR SUGGEST IT TO USE AT ANY CLUB OR LAWN WITHOUT FIRST CONDUCTING A SOIL TEST OR CONSULTING WITH A QUALIFIED TURF PROFESSIONAL. THIS WORKED FOR ME, AND MAY NOT WORK FOR ANYONE ELSE, NO MATTER HOW SIMILAR A SITUATION YOU MIGHT BE IN*

 

Gary's Green 18-3-4 @1 gal/acre

PK Plus 3-5-17 @1gal/acre

Nutra Green 5-10-5 @1gal/acre

UltraPlex 4-0-3 @1gal/acre

Primo @3.5oz/acre

Nucleus 0-0-21 @2.5gal/acre

Aristocracy/Tricure/Soaker whatever I have in the back one of those three at a light rate higher rates in the summer time.

And then whatever micros that would be needed would be added.

 

That list is weekly greens applications of FOLIAR products. Each of those sprays is putting down nutrients, macro and micro, measured in tenths of a pound. Those can be thought of a the daily meals just getting it through. The feasts are the monthly GRANULAR applications of 18-9-18, 0-0-25, Kickstand (Iron) or whatever else I need. These applications will be measured in half pound to 1 pound rates. These products that go on greens are known as greens grade, which is the smallest particle, but the first two take it a step further. Those first two are from a company called The Anderson's and they patented something called DG, dispersing granule, which breaks down as soon as it comes into contact with water, allowing the nutrients to penetrate the canopy. There are other products that now incorporate their version of DG and they seem to work satisfactorily enough.

 

Now just like with Advil you can buy Ibuprofen, which is simply the generic brand of Advil. Which is better? It is the same active ingredient and I can save a buck or two. The same situation happens in golf. I can buy the generic fertilizer or herbicide, but I want the best and have been fortunate enough to be able to buy the best in season. For those of you in the industry, some of these products are fairly expensive...but you pay for what you get. I happened to know the Anderson's rep quite well, we had a terrific relationship so I bought from him because I trusted the guy and knew if there was a problem he would make it right. Grigg Bros for the foliar mixes is what my bosses used, I saw the results firsthand how excellent they were and that is what I use as well. I don't use the generic primo, in season, but I will use the generics outside of peak season.

Cost is a balancing act for all clubs, except Augusta which has a budget (insert eye roll), so in peak season I won't touch a generic product. Not because it doesn't work, but because I want the best and Ill spend the best. When we start to slow down, Ill lighten the rates to stretch product or purchase generics because the pressure of being great isn't there I can afford to let up a little bit and save some dollars.

 

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The super that left was using a liquid fertilizer that had a fish emulsion base that stunk to high heaven, but seemed to work well, and seemed to be a very safe product to use in the hot summer. They pulled plugs Aug 20&21, which I thought was a bit early, but they got very lucky, and the week following was cooler than normal with a couple good rains. The greens recovered pretty fast, and except for being a bit slow, they were in good shape. Not long after that the super left, and now we have a part time super, and an assistant that has only been there a short time. The guy that is filling in a couple mornings a week comes from a course that has never had real good greens. I'll probably hang in as a member until I see what the new guy does next spring. Golfers can overlook a lot of questionable conditions, but the greens have to be good. I guess I need to decide if I want to stay here, or join some other club. This club really treats me well, and I have friends there. The cost is beyond reasonable, but about a year ago they fired the head pro that had been there since the course opened in the mid 90s. This was nothing more than a cost cutting move, and he was so well liked, they actually lost some long time members. Now, they are trying to save money by waiting to hire a superintendent, and the conditions are suffering. I'm no expert, but it seems like good conditions, and good people in the pro shop is the best way to increase business rather than cutting back on those important things. Oh,well, that's enough compaining for me.

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Hello BNGL,

I've got two questions for you:

1) my home course is built on clay soil. We struggle quite a bit with drainage especially in the spring and fall months. What is your opinion on sand capping in this context?

2) how long does a green typically last before it needs to be renovated?

 


 

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I was putting down granular the other day. It's hard to get the permits to spray in Finland as far as I understand, only our super himself has the proper qualifications, he does that on an as-needed basis. It sounds like BNGL if you put down stuff weekly, you are dumping a lot more than we ever use... what grasses are you growing?

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How about crabgrass creeping in to bent greens? Can you spray it out without hurting the green or zoysia surrounds?

 

Looks like they lost the battle with it, came in one mower width on the green, mowed that at collar height and lost a ton of green surface in the process. I see this is going to be a self-defeating tactic. Greens are stressed from heat and traffic, they lose collars so they mow less green, what green is left gets that much more traffic. I think they are staring down the barrel of a complete green re-do.

 

If your collars get nasty like that can you just cut them out and re-turf from the nursery green? How do you prevent that crabgrass from getting back in there?

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> @smashdn said:

> How about crabgrass creeping in to bent greens? Can you spray it out without hurting the green or zoysia surrounds?

>

> Looks like they lost the battle with it, came in one mower width on the green, mowed that at collar height and lost a ton of green surface in the process. I see this is going to be a self-defeating tactic. Greens are stressed from heat and traffic, they lose collars so they mow less green, what green is left gets that much more traffic. I think they are staring down the barrel of a complete green re-do.

>

> If your collars get nasty like that can you just cut them out and re-turf from the nursery green? How do you prevent that crabgrass from getting back in there?

 

We are using a product called Pylex - controls the goosegrass and crabgrass. We are in central Kentucky, and it has worked well for us - even though we are also suffering from record heats and zero rain for the past 7 weeks.

 

 

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.18*> @"James the Hogan Fan" said:

> I was putting down granular the other day. It's hard to get the permits to spray in Finland as far as I understand, only our super himself has the proper qualifications, he does that on an as-needed basis. It sounds like BNGL if you put down stuff weekly, you are dumping a lot more than we ever use... what grasses are you growing?

 

That was the greens mix for tif eagle. There is a huge difference in the growing days and nutritional needs for Florida compared to Finland. Id typically need to put down between 11-13 lbs of N per year, the spoon feedings were from the weekly spray which put down about .1 lbs of N/1000 square feet. The granular apps would be at about a half pound to a pound per 1000 about every month.

 

 

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> @rangersgoalie said:

> kikuyu infestation in many areas.......

> seems eradication is next to impossible without a massive project??

 

 

Kikuyu is very tough to get rid of, even if you use a nonselective herbicide such as roundup, but it would likely return and the glyphosate would also harm the surrounding creating weak/bare areas allowing the kikuyu to reestablish. You can use roundup but I would use a brush and only apply it to the kikuyu not the surrounding turf.

Reached out to a sup friend from California, there is a product called monument, which is labeled for Kikuyu suppression. There is another product called Drive XL that I don't think is explicitly labeled for it, but does help curtail Kikuyu growth and is labeled for both warm and cool season growth.

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> @augustgolf said:

> > @smashdn said:

> > How about crabgrass creeping in to bent greens? Can you spray it out without hurting the green or zoysia surrounds?

> >

> > Looks like they lost the battle with it, came in one mower width on the green, mowed that at collar height and lost a ton of green surface in the process. I see this is going to be a self-defeating tactic. Greens are stressed from heat and traffic, they lose collars so they mow less green, what green is left gets that much more traffic. I think they are staring down the barrel of a complete green re-do.

> >

> > If your collars get nasty like that can you just cut them out and re-turf from the nursery green? How do you prevent that crabgrass from getting back in there?

>

> We are using a product called Pylex - controls the goosegrass and crabgrass. We are in central Kentucky, and it has worked well for us - even though we are also suffering from record heats and zero rain for the past 7 weeks.

>

>

 

Pylex is a terrific option, did you notice much discoloration on greens? I know people had been burned on occasion when using it on fairways and tees.

 

The best option is to tackle the problem with preemergents. Anderson's Crab/goosegrass granular is a terrific option. Post emergent there is a product called Tupersan, with an active called Siduron, which is labeled for creeping bent grass tolerance and targeting crabgrass.

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> @BNGL said:

> > @augustgolf said:

> > > @smashdn said:

> > > How about crabgrass creeping in to bent greens? Can you spray it out without hurting the green or zoysia surrounds?

> > >

> > > Looks like they lost the battle with it, came in one mower width on the green, mowed that at collar height and lost a ton of green surface in the process. I see this is going to be a self-defeating tactic. Greens are stressed from heat and traffic, they lose collars so they mow less green, what green is left gets that much more traffic. I think they are staring down the barrel of a complete green re-do.

> > >

> > > If your collars get nasty like that can you just cut them out and re-turf from the nursery green? How do you prevent that crabgrass from getting back in there?

> >

> > We are using a product called Pylex - controls the goosegrass and crabgrass. We are in central Kentucky, and it has worked well for us - even though we are also suffering from record heats and zero rain for the past 7 weeks.

> >

> >

>

> Pylex is a terrific option, did you notice much discoloration on greens? I know people had been burned on occasion when using it on fairways and tees.

>

> The best option is to tackle the problem with preemergents. Anderson's Crab/goosegrass granular is a terrific option. Post emergent there is a product called Tupersan, with an active called Siduron, which is labeled for creeping bent grass tolerance and targeting crabgrass.

 

There was minimal discoloration of the bent on the greens.

 

Will keep the pre-emergents in mind. As I came into the situation well into the growing season....always wanting to "get ahead" of the problem, if I can.

 

Was actually thinking of an early Polyon application, with the pre-emerge coated on the product. Used it many years ago, when I was in South Fla, and loved the results...just don't really care for the upfront costs, but it is what it is.

 

Definitely saves on multiple applications and post-emerge labor.

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> @augustgolf said:

> We are using a product called Pylex - controls the goosegrass and crabgrass. We are in central Kentucky, and it has worked well for us - even though we are also suffering from record heats and zero rain for the past 7 weeks.

>

>

Good to know. I too am in KY, south central KY.

 

Mercifully, today the heat broke and rain is forecast for Sunday.

 

 

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      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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