Adding Counterweight vs Counterweighted shafts vs SW values or actual MOI

[Howard_Jones]

SW values up or down and how to get there is a never ending subject on this forum, so i thought it was about time to make a attempt to to clear this out once and for all, even if i know that want work, the question and mis- leading info will come up again, just like the sun comes up tomorrow, but ill do my best here.

 

THE SW SCALE

The SW scale is a instrument who was meant to match the resistance between 2 clubs, or within a set of clubs like woods, or between irons, but the instrument itself is from those days they used Hickory shafts, and grips that dont even look like what we use today. They did not have "tons of shaft options", and they did not have tons of grip options either, so the instrument worked very good with the components they had back then.

 

Here is a set of Spalding clubs by Bobby Jones from 1932 (the SW scale patent is from 1934), and pay attention to the length of the grips. On the patent drawing (next photo), the grip reaches all the way to the fulcrum, so it must have been 14 inch long, but this grips on the Spalding set looks even longer.

 

 

This is how the patent drawing of Adams "Lorry scale" the one we call Swing weight scale looks like. Pay attention to where the grip ends up.

 

 

TODAYS NORM.

Fast forward to today, we play grips thats average 10.5" long with the balance point 4 inch from the butt end, and a typical OEM grip is 50 grams.

 

Way to many players has the idea that if we have a head weight issue (too heavy), we can solve it by adding weight grip side, and see the value on the scale drop by about 1 point for each 5 grams we add. PLEASE FORGET THAT YOU EVER HEARD THIS, WE ARE FOOLING THE SCALE AND OUR SELF, IT CANT BE DONE.

 

The moment we ADD weight to the club, even if its grip side, ACTUAL resistance of the clubs goes UP, NOT DOWN, so we cant use a heavy grip or Counterweight to solve a head weight issue, that can only be done by reducing head weight, or shortening the shaft, or change the shaft to a CW balance shaft with the SAME weight we use now. Ill, get back to CW weighted shafts later, first lets look at ACTUAL MOI.

 

ACTUAL MOI

The MOI scale Tom Wishon had made by Auditor, measure actual MOI the scientific way, that means with the butt end of the club as point of rotation. When we use that system, we get to see the actual resistance the club has during release and that was the intention behind the SW scale too, just using a different system.

 

Lets take one practical example i just used here on WRX.

A player has a MOI matched set using progressive SW or "poor mans MOI match". We can use the SW scale to bring us very close to equal MOI for all clubs, and thats what he tries. His longest club turned out 1.1 SWP above his target, so typical he would get "help" by suggestion "add 10 grams butt side" with more grip weight or what ever, but sorry, that cant be done, just look at this numbers.

 

His play length on the actual club was 38.125" and its 2.06 grams pr SWP at that length, so he need a reduction of 2.26 grams from the head, or he could have gone shorter and make a drop of 0.75 SWP for each 1/8" shorter, but thats not a option for him. On this play length, 2.26 grams is equal to 19 MOI points, and if he added a MID size grip thats 10 grams up, he would ADD 7 Moi points, so now he is 27 MOI points above target. We did NOT fix it, we made it all worse.

 

A chart for TIP WEIGHTs as grams to actual MOI values as influence.

 

Some of you might now give the argument that the butt end of the club is not the actual point of rotation, but neither is 14" down from the butt, its more like 4" inch from the butt or in the middle of your upper and lower hand. We know from the SW scale that we can add 1 ton on the fulcrum, and the SW scale would say SW did not change, so i hope it rings a bell now?

 

If the ACTUAL point of rotation is equal to the grips balance point (or fulcrum if you like), then adding grip weight is ONLY adding total weight, we did NOT change "club balance", even if the SW scale say so, we fooled the instrument, and our self, since adding weight ALWAYS bring MOI value UP, even grip side. Thats why its suggested that we dry fit WITHOUT grips, and subtract 9 SWP who is the difference from un-gripped to a club using a standard OEM grip.

 

TRUE SW VALUE vs PLAY SW value

I prefer to call this "True SW value", and what ever value the scale returns with the actual grip is "Play SW". True SW values UP or DOWN form D2-D3 with a standard OEM grip, or E1 without, makes a difference for FLEX, while "Play SW" does not. We can count 1 SWP True SW to be equal to 1 CPM on flex, and its 10 CPM as 1 flex class, so a set thats build to D6 True SW value or E4-E5 during dryfit without grips, plays like Soft stepped once.

 

That means if we used a Heavy grip because we needed the size, and used the SW scale to guide us, we would now add more head weight, and mess with flex, so dont do that. Try of the club as it is, and if you feel the need for more head weight then add until it feels and works good, but DONT let the SW scale guide you, it has no clue about what we are doing here, so it cant help us with that.

 

COUNTER WEIGHTED SHAFTS

You might ask now, why does CW weighted shaft works then, when adding grip weight dont?

CW weighted shafts can take down feel of head weight, IF WE KEEP SHAFT WEIGHT THE SAME.

 

Follow me in this one.

Grafalloy ProLaunch RED has a CW weighted brother named SUPERCHARGED, and they have the same uncut shaft weight, but the SS model is "light tip side, and heavy butt side", so the total weight is redistributed, we did not add anything, but made TIP SIDE LIGHTER = Lower feel of head weight. That means its not really the heavy butt who made the difference, but the lighter tip side.

 

MAKING A CW BALANCED SHAFT

If we wanted to use Grip weight to Counterbalance head weight, lets say by 3 SWP, we would have to start out from a shaft thats was 15 grams below target, so if 65 grams was target or like PL Supercharged, we have to start from a shaft thats 50 gram, then add 15 gram to the butt side, then we have a 65 Grams CW balanced shaft.

 

If we tried the same, starting from the standard PL RED, and add 15 grams at the butt, we would have a 80 grams CW balance shaft, while our target was 65, so this 2 shafts is just as different as to others of 65 vs 80 grams.

 

So, we CANT ADD weight butt side to fix a head weight issue, it cant be done since actual resistance goes up, even if we added it grip side, so ADDED GRIP WEIGHT is ADDED TOTAL weight and ADDED MOI.

Only head weight reduction, shorter shafts, lighter shaft with the same BP, or a CW balance shaft with the same shaft weight can do it.

 

A chart for grams to SWP point vs play lengths

 

Please bookmark this tread so you got it at hand the next time the question pops up, and feel free to chime in with what ever question you might have. We CAN convert grams to MOI, and MOI numbers to SW values by using charts or do the math, so if you want a compare of 2 shafts with different BP and how they will turn out, just ask.

 

[Howard_Jones]

Adding a few charts who might be handy.

 

BUTT CUT - HOW MANY GRAMS TO RESET SW VALUE

 

TIP WEIGHTs to SW POINTs

 

SW POINTs to GRAMS TIP WEIGHT

 

SHAFTs - ADDING SHAFT WEIGHT to MOI points - Neutral Balance point

 

By combining this charts, we can move between Grams, SW values and MOI point from what ever direction we like, just remember to get the numbers from the actual play length.

[wfwp]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. This detailed explanation of the heft attributes of golf clubs is awesome. I appreciate the charts used to illustrate the relationships.

[Howard_Jones]

Just adding a small chart i dont know where to post, it feels like it belongs here.

 

Its about ADDING SHAFT WEIGHT, and how we can simulate that by adding lead tape to figure out what shaft weight that works the best for us.

 

Again there is "misinformation" out there, when some say "add it in front of the grip", others might say "add it 14 inch from the butt" (The SW scales fulcrum), while the CORRECT place is the shafts actual balance point, who is close to the middle of the shaft for most models (not CW weighted models).

 

We shall distribute the lead tape head to grip from the shaft BP, thats the closest we can get to a simulate a higher shaft weight.

 

To show off what difference it makes, ive done the numbers for adding 10 grams to a 45.00" long driver.

 

First how the 3 different locations with 10 grams added will contribute to actual MOI, and then i have converted this numbers to see how much added head weight thats makes the same MOI change, and at last, how those added shaft weight will change SW value.

 

Then it should be easy to see why we must use the shafts BP to make it right when we try to simulate a higher shaft weight to dial in what works the best for us.

 

 

[Milfordlefty]

I read as a hobbiest only out of curiosity. With adjustable driver/fw/hyb hosel sleeves, the building skill is dimished. Irons aren't adjustable (yet). The Bobby Jones pic is interesting to me in the club lengths in the irons. 8 clubs, only 4 different lengths. 13 clubs with putter. No sand wedge? Sarazen was just developing modern day sand wedge design/idea in 1932. I've done similar with my irons/wedges when I have my Pinhawks in the bag.

[Howard_Jones]

> @Milfordlefty said:

> I read as a hobbiest only out of curiosity. With adjustable driver/fw/hyb hosel sleeves, the building skill is dimished.

 

Since most drivers, many woods and hybrids is too long as standard, it does not help much with adjustable hosels, so modifications is still needed to make it fit the actual player, and questions about "how too" is up daily here, so dont get this wrong. Its very nice with adjustable hosels, but its only related to "club head angles", nothing else.

 

[Milfordlefty]

Like the comments, making me rethink what I know as a 'hobbiest'.

[SAM_PGA]

@"Howard Jones" this post of yours, which I know has been discussed "til the cow come home", should be pinned at the top of the WRX Club Techs forum. Just as everyone should know how adjustable drivers actually work, everyone should know the TRUTH about SW and MOI. Thank you @"Howard Jones"

[Howard_Jones]

> @SAM_PGA said:

> @"Howard Jones" this post of yours, which I know has been discussed "til the cow come home", should be pinned at the top of the WRX Club Techs forum. Just as everyone should know how adjustable drivers actually work, everyone should know the TRUTH about SW and MOI. Thank you @"Howard Jones"

 

I dont think thats a good idea, and im not so sure what im writhing is "the truth" about the SW system either, because the clubs and grips we play today is so far off from the clubs it was made to match. Ive been trying to find what Adams thinking and finding was, but it becomes "here saying", its not directly from the inventor himself, so at the best, its a qualified ques. The only thing im certain off is that many users of the SW scale has never understood what limitations this instrument has, and has seen it as some "oracle with magic numbers", but its not even close to that, so they often mess up more than they fix by using a SW scale to guide them.

 

Even club making classes miss leads their students about this instrument and what it can do for us, and i was one of them. One of the first set of irons i made after i got my "Master diplomas", was a set built to 0.5" above standard with DG S400 Tour issue shafts. Like for may other players who needs over length clubs, head weight became a issue....

No problem for me to fix that....Grips was removed, and i rolled about 25 grams of lead tape under the grips, and added MID size grips, so now my player should be more than just fine....the SW scale said...

 

Today i can only laugh about that story, it did NOT work out, common sense and understanding of the #2 most important fitting parameter TOTAL weight should have stopped me before i tried, but i trusted the info i was given about how to use a SW scale and how we could fix issues like this, but it cant be done, and i learned that the hard way. This player ended up with DG SL X100 shafts, still with MID size grips, so we took DOWN Total weight about 45 grams, then it worked like it should have done from the start, so using DGS400 was also a wrong decision and part of the problem.

 

I hope this tread WANT be pinned, but dont mind if it comes up with questions from time to time, but im far from alone on this board to have this knowledge, those who have been working with both SW and MOI matching should all be aware of it and what limitations the SW scale has.

[North Butte]

As a person with an engineering background, here's what I see when I read the history of the swingweight thing.

 

The swingweight system is trying to boil several parameters (each of which is probably meaningful to most golfers) into a single number. That is done, as with any approximation of this type, by making some pretty strong assumptions. Grip weight being constant is the most major one but there are other "all else being equal" type things underlying the Adams system.

 

For my part, I'd rather that system have been showed the scrap pile around the first time that iron shafts under 130g or so started showing up in mass produced clubs. But people still put (too much IMO) faith in that swingweight number even 75 years later.

[Howard_Jones]

> @"North Butte" said:

> As a person with an engineering background, here's what I see when I read the history of the swingweight thing.

>

> The swingweight system is trying to boil several parameters (each of which is probably meaningful to most golfers) into a single number. That is done, as with any approximation of this type, by making some pretty strong assumptions. Grip weight being constant is the most major one but there are other "all else being equal" type things underlying the Adams system.

>

> For my part, I'd rather that system have been showed the scrap pile around the first time that iron shafts under 130g or so started showing up in mass produced clubs. But people still put (too much IMO) faith in that swingweight number even 75 years later.

 

I have to admit that the SW scale works quite good if we use it right (no grips please), so the problem is the users, especially when they for some reason trace a SW value they think is right for them, no matter the other club specs, so they overlook most other and way more important parameters, thats when it goes wrong (IMO), so i cant blame the instrument itself, its mostly "user errors" as i see it.

 

Like i was into above here, i never had the chance to measure a set from those days the SW scale was invented, so if anyone of you has a set with Hickory shafts, and access to both a SW scale and a MOI match scale, please chime in, i would love to see the numbers. Ive been searching the net to the last page hunting for specs on hickory clubs and shafts, but cant find what i look for, and thats total weight, and actual shaft weight and the balance point those shafts has, but also length of the grip and its weight. My thinking has the idea that SW matching back then was closer to actual MOI than it is on todays clubs, but i dont know if thats correct or not. What i do know is that actual resistance as it goes up on todays SW matched clubs into the long end, is anything but beneficial for the majority of Golfers, and maybe the most important parameter for why the average Golfer cant handle irons longer than his #5 iron. Both #4 and #3 has more resistance than he can handle without "stepping on it", or swinging out of his shoes, and ive seen that even for professionals, so i know its a common problem with the SW system.