3 years later for Lydia Ko...

[Titleist_PT23]

One other thing to consider with Lydia and David Leadbetter, I would love to see what her stats looked like in the first half of the 2016 season (or through her last win that year at the Marathon). If you just calculate a weighted average, I'm not sure the stats through the Marathon could be as high as the 2015 figures simply because the back half of 2016 would have to be horrendous. But it does seem like the later portion of this year could have been impacted by both fatigue and Lydia altering her swing on her own (or from advice from her father). Hence, there is a chance that her stats from the time with Leadbetter were all basically the same (I'll concede that she likely lost some accuracy off the tee).

 

I'm undecided on this issue. Fundamentally, I tend to agree that wholesale changes are not the best idea for someone that's been swinging a club a long time already. As mentioned by others, the speed training and keeping everything else the same (more or less) seems like a lower risk option. But I would ask anyone that thinks he's the plague to go watch the 2016 ANA highlights. I highly doubt anyone at this point was calling out the swing; either for it's fundamental flaws or for the change itself.

 

It's impossible to know if the instruction given by Leadbetter was a ticking time bomb and destined to blow-up. I tend to think not but it's entirely a guess. I just don't think you win as much as she did with something that is a disaster. I'm also not sure if swing changes are something you can just "undo" and go back to what you were doing.

[Titleist_PT23]

Here's one article from the past. How many times did she add 10+ yards but still somehow continue to average basically 250?

 

One other comment on my post above, I do not know the extent to which changes were made to her swing from start to finish of Leadbetter's instruction from 2014-2016. I.e. if more drastic changes came towards the end.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11613164

[Ignatius Reilly]

It's worth noting that Lydia reached number one with the same parents that she has now. If they're the problem, they were also the solution too.

 

I think DL may have been a poor fit for Ko. He's an accomplished instructor - he charges a fortune and a pretty big number of pros have paid him. You don't get to that position if you're not actually good. Really good.

 

I have two of his books (short game and putting "bibles"). I bought the first and the 2nd was a Christmas present. They don't really work for me, too technical, too much data. I'm highly analytical, really strong at math and physics so you'd think he'd be a good fit - but for golf I'm a "feel" player. A friend who's really good is really technical and his advice is worthless to me. Too technical, too much to think about with hip, hand, shoulder, arm, knee, torso, navel, elbow positions and angles. Ugh.

 

IMO, I could easily see Ko trying to process and learn all that and just coming out confused and not hitting as pure and reliably as she did before. So.... she needs to find the "right" coach for her and her style. Her parents will largely remain the same as they were, I imagine.....

[Argonne69]

The first thing that was noticeable with her swing was the loop at the top, especially with her wedges. Previously her wedges were a single plane. She also developed a two-way miss. Missing one-way is bad, but when a player has no idea where the ball might go, it's bad.

 

As an amateur, Lydia was the youngest player to win a professional event at the time. She was the youngest player to win on the LPGA, and she never missed a cut in any of her 25 professional events. In late 2013 she had risen to #5 in the World rankings before she turned pro. She won her first professional event in her 9th start of the 2014 season in April. In the early part of the season she had three top 10s in eight events.

 

Basically, Lydia was winning, and had the capability to win, long before she changed coaches. Her wonderful short game was the key to her success in my opinion. It allowed her to tinker with her swing, and still remain in the hunt. Some people may want to give credit to DL for the success of 2014 and 2015, but I say it was already in the cards. She stated quite clearly that she wanted to hit a draw, and pick up distance. There was basically no change from 2014 to 2015. I tried spot checking a few tournaments from early 2016, but the LPGA website is messing up the data. All tournaments for 2016 are showing a driving average of 237.5 yds, with 50% accuracy, and 67% GIR.

 

Again, I don't think the DL changes were a ticking time bomb. They simply weren't working towards achieving her goal of picking up yardage. So Yeon gained 10 yds from 2014 (245) to 2016 (255). Mi Hyang picked up 8 yds. In hindsight we see that distance gain was going to be a big factor in the next few years. Her team likely saw that.

 

[buckeyefl]

It's worth noting that Lydia reached number one with the same parents that she has now. If they're the problem, they were also the solution too.

 

 

That's not even remotely how it works.

As far as too technical, well that's one of DL myths that continues. I do think some of his players that come up through the system seem to have too much technical stuff in their head BUT that is not how he ( him or his instructors) teaches everyone.

 

Her parents sought him out because she was moving to Orlando and he was the biggest name they knew. If they had done a little research and let her decide on who she wanted to work with we may be having a different conversation. There are plenty of great coaches in that area.

[buckeyefl]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > >

> > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > >

> > > > ____________________

> > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > >

> > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > >

> > >

> > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > >

> > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> >

> > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> >

> > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> >

> > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

>

> Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

>

> I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

>

> Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

>

> Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

>

 

All said with zero experience on the subject. You think that somehow Lydia got there all on her own which shows just how deep your confusing and hatred run. It's pretty common though because of the ignorance golfers have about instruction.

[Argonne69]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > >

> > > > > ____________________

> > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > >

> > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > >

> > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > >

> > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > >

> > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> >

> > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> >

> > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> >

> > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> >

> > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> >

>

> All said with zero experience on the subject. You think that somehow Lydia got there all on her own which shows just how deep your confusing and hatred run. It's pretty common though because of the ignorance golfers have about instruction.

 

I'm looking at results. Yes, she won with DL, and she won before DL with Guy. She had a specific goal in working with DL, and she didn't achieve it. One doesn't have to be an instructor to see that the changes didn't result in achieving the goal.

[Argonne69]

> @agolf1 said:

> Here's one article from the past. How many times did she add 10+ yards but still somehow continue to average basically 250?

>

> One other comment on my post above, I do not know the extent to which changes were made to her swing from start to finish of Leadbetter's instruction from 2014-2016. I.e. if more drastic changes came towards the end.

>

> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11613164

 

No idea where they came up with that extra 10 to 15m. Sure, for any one week with the right conditions one could have a good week. However, over the course of the teo seasons there was zero change. Another factor we've discussed before is the missed fairways. The misses on the measured holes have a big influence on the overall average. Since she was missing more fairways, it's possible they were on the measured holes, and thus drove down the average. Unfortunately the LPGA website is screwed up, and not showing the correct player stats for the individual tournaments. I'd love to see her numbers from the 2016 Handa, Kia, and ANA.

 

[JAMH03]

> @"Ignatius Reilly" said:

> It's worth noting that Lydia reached number one with the same parents that she has now. If they're the problem, they were also the solution too.

>

> I think DL may have been a poor fit for Ko. He's an accomplished instructor - he charges a fortune and a pretty big number of pros have paid him. You don't get to that position if you're not actually good. Really good.

>

> I have two of his books (short game and putting "bibles"). I bought the first and the 2nd was a Christmas present. They don't really work for me, too technical, too much data. I'm highly analytical, really strong at math and physics so you'd think he'd be a good fit - but for golf I'm a "feel" player. A friend who's really good is really technical and his advice is worthless to me. Too technical, too much to think about with hip, hand, shoulder, arm, knee, torso, navel, elbow positions and angles. Ugh.

>

> IMO, I could easily see Ko trying to process and learn all that and just coming out confused and not hitting as pure and reliably as she did before. So.... she needs to find the "right" coach for her and her style. Her parents will largely remain the same as they were, I imagine.....

 

Do you mean Dave Pelz?

 

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

> @JAMH03 said:

> > @"Ignatius Reilly" said:

> > It's worth noting that Lydia reached number one with the same parents that she has now. If they're the problem, they were also the solution too.

> >

> > I think DL may have been a poor fit for Ko. He's an accomplished instructor - he charges a fortune and a pretty big number of pros have paid him. You don't get to that position if you're not actually good. Really good.

> >

> > I have two of his books (short game and putting "bibles"). I bought the first and the 2nd was a Christmas present. They don't really work for me, too technical, too much data. I'm highly analytical, really strong at math and physics so you'd think he'd be a good fit - but for golf I'm a "feel" player. A friend who's really good is really technical and his advice is worthless to me. Too technical, too much to think about with hip, hand, shoulder, arm, knee, torso, navel, elbow positions and angles. Ugh.

> >

> > IMO, I could easily see Ko trying to process and learn all that and just coming out confused and not hitting as pure and reliably as she did before. So.... she needs to find the "right" coach for her and her style. Her parents will largely remain the same as they were, I imagine.....

>

> Do you mean Dave Pelz?

>

>

 

I'd prefer not to answer that.

I seem to have lost my mind there.....

[buckeyefl]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ____________________

> > > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > > >

> > > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > > >

> > > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > > >

> > > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> > >

> > > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> > >

> > > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> > >

> > > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> > >

> > > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> > >

> >

> > All said with zero experience on the subject. You think that somehow Lydia got there all on her own which shows just how deep your confusing and hatred run. It's pretty common though because of the ignorance golfers have about instruction.

>

> I'm looking at results. Yes, she won with DL, and she won before DL with Guy. She had a specific goal in working with DL, and she didn't achieve it. One doesn't have to be an instructor to see that the changes didn't result in achieving the goal.

 

How many wins with DL. You keep dodging but it's understandable why.

 

So she had a coach before even though you suggested players like her needed a coach " not so much". The specific example you used HAD A SWING COACH FOR YEARS AND THATS WHAT HELPED HER GET TO WHERE SHE WAS AT AN EARLY AGE.

 

This is where you and people like you are out of your element. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and your ignorance about instruction, coaches and tour players wants and needs could fill volumes. Just keep in hating because you want to hate. Do you honestly believe that if swing coaches sucked as you suggested that they would still us them? Maybe we should discuss how the greatest player of this generation and his fellow GOAT both used instructors even after amazing amateur careers. Does your "not so much" theory apply to them also?

[dpb5031]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ____________________

> > > > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > > > >

> > > > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > > > >

> > > > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> > > >

> > > > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> > > >

> > > > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> > > >

> > > > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> > > >

> > > > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> > > >

> > >

> > > All said with zero experience on the subject. You think that somehow Lydia got there all on her own which shows just how deep your confusing and hatred run. It's pretty common though because of the ignorance golfers have about instruction.

> >

> > I'm looking at results. Yes, she won with DL, and she won before DL with Guy. She had a specific goal in working with DL, and she didn't achieve it. One doesn't have to be an instructor to see that the changes didn't result in achieving the goal.

>

> How many wins with DL. You keep dodging but it's understandable why.

>

> So she had a coach before even though you suggested players like her needed a coach " not so much". The specific example you used HAD A SWING COACH FOR YEARS AND THATS WHAT HELPED HER GET TO WHERE SHE WAS AT AN EARLY AGE.

>

> This is where you and people like you are out of your element. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and your ignorance about instruction, coaches and tour players wants and needs could fill volumes. Just keep in hating because you want to hate. Do you honestly believe that if swing coaches sucked as you suggested that they would still us them? Maybe we should discuss how the greatest player of this generation and his fellow GOAT both used instructors even after amazing amateur careers. Does your "not so much" theory apply to them also?

 

I am pro swing coach, but dont want to get in the middle of your argument. Still I've yet to hear a knowledgeable opinion on the substantive swing changes that she made. They were not tweaks, they were wholesale changes. She changed her pivot, her takeaway, her downswing, and most notably, her release pattern. That's a lot of stuff to change on a player as dominant as LK, regardless of who may be the instructor.

 

IMHO, changing her release pattern was a huge mistake. I believe she's lost the feel of what used to come naturally to her and gave her tremendous control over the golf ball, even if she couldnt hit a going draw....

[buckeyefl]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ____________________

> > > > > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> > > > >

> > > > > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > All said with zero experience on the subject. You think that somehow Lydia got there all on her own which shows just how deep your confusing and hatred run. It's pretty common though because of the ignorance golfers have about instruction.

> > >

> > > I'm looking at results. Yes, she won with DL, and she won before DL with Guy. She had a specific goal in working with DL, and she didn't achieve it. One doesn't have to be an instructor to see that the changes didn't result in achieving the goal.

> >

> > How many wins with DL. You keep dodging but it's understandable why.

> >

> > So she had a coach before even though you suggested players like her needed a coach " not so much". The specific example you used HAD A SWING COACH FOR YEARS AND THATS WHAT HELPED HER GET TO WHERE SHE WAS AT AN EARLY AGE.

> >

> > This is where you and people like you are out of your element. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and your ignorance about instruction, coaches and tour players wants and needs could fill volumes. Just keep in hating because you want to hate. Do you honestly believe that if swing coaches sucked as you suggested that they would still us them? Maybe we should discuss how the greatest player of this generation and his fellow GOAT both used instructors even after amazing amateur careers. Does your "not so much" theory apply to them also?

>

> I am pro swing coach, but dont want to get in the middle of your argument. Still I've yet to hear a knowledgeable opinion on the substantive swing changes that she made. They were not tweaks, they were wholesale changes. She changed her pivot, her takeaway, her downswing, and most notably, her release pattern. That's a lot of stuff to change on a player as dominant as LK, regardless of who may be the instructor.

>

> IMHO, changing her release pattern was a huge mistake. I believe she's lost the feel of what used to come naturally to her and gave her tremendous control over the golf ball, even if she couldnt hit a going draw....

 

And the big question is who brought it about? All signs and past history point to mommy and daddy. They are heavy handed, interfere with her instruction ( just like Wies parents) and wouldn't let someone change all of those things if they weren't on board. I would bet my 401k that mom and dad told him they wanted a certain result ( it's even been mentioned by insiders) so to keep her as a client he had to try different things with their blessing of course. It's not something new and it's happened before. It puts the player and coach in a bad position.

 

Chasing distance is like working with explosives because it takes time and patience and small movements. With a player like her you would have to take it very slow and I don't think her parents were in the mood to wait for that next big paycheck...I mean improvement. Imagine the pressure on her and her coaches.

 

To your point it comes down to the player, or whoever speaks for them, deciding what they want to do and getting someone they trust to do it. Players don't always make the correct decisions about these things and neither do parents or some coaches.

 

With her record I just can't see David saying " ok we need to change everything". He had a cash cow on his hands. For the same reason I could see him bending to the parents will when they made their demands.

 

 

[dpb5031]

> @buckeyefl said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > @buckeyefl said:

> > > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Golf Dino" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Argonne69 said:

> > > > > > > > > > No, I don't believe LD was the reason for her decline. I don't believe he deserves much credit for her early success, either. I simply defend her decision to leave him, or any other coach for that matter. She went to him she made it clear that she wanted to hit a draw and gain distance. By the end of their engagement she was shorter and more crooked. The experiment obviously didn't work. Her subsequent coach was not much better.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I ask about LD's other students because he loves to tout his Top 100 instructor rating. Big Whoop. His LPGA students have few wins in the past few years. If he's such a great instructor, you'd figure the players would be lining up to be coached by him, and they'd be racking up wins by the boatload. He loves to toot his own horn. I think he's a snake oil salesman,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I agree with you that the game has changed very rapidly in the past few years. Lydia's current stats aren't horrible, but relative to the rest of the tour the rankings have fallen through the floor. This current wave of young players are longer, and are giving themselves more birdie opportunities.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ____________________

> > > > > > > > > @Argonne69 ... I just stated what appeared to be your rationale regarding Lydia and DL. Thanks for this clarification -- it sums up your position better.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Much of my thoughts regarding Lydia and her relative decline were strengthened by the statistical information that you and perhaps a couple of others put together earlier in this thread, so big note of appreciation for the time you and the others spent. It's a difficult task given the lack of meaningful data (like Strokes Gained, Shot Link, etc.).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No problem. I'm simply not a fan of the big name instructors/coaches. They seem to ruin more good players than they help. A few act more as mental coaches, which is fine. However, taking a child prodigy and changing their swing to the point where they're missing more fairways and loses distance is nuts. I don't care how many awards have been given to the instructor. Michelle Wie should have been Example A for Lydia.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If I went to a dietitian and said I wanted to lose 10 lbs, and three years later I was 5 lbs heavier, I would certainly leave. Heck, it might be all my fault, but whatever the reason it's clearly not working.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Not a big fan, that's obvious because you've repeatedly ignored the facts surrounding the situation. Ruin more good players than they help. Really? Think about that long and hard and you should realize where the flaw in your logic lies. Your bias is driving your irrational thought on the topic. I believe I asked earlier but could you give your qualifications on grading swing coaches? How many tour players or high-level amateurs have you worked with or been on the inside as someone helps them build a swing to compete at high levels?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I by no means back all big name coaches but I can tell you why based on experience and not simply some deep-rooted hatred of golf instruction. I'm sort of busy but could you look up how many wins she had while having DL as her coach? Also maybe dig up Butch Harmons players just to see how many careers top coaches destroy. You can add most of the top 20 teachers in the world to that search just to make it interesting.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oh and Michelle Wie should have been example A ( not for the reasons you want to think) and Lydia should have put her parents at arms length ASAP as it pertained to her career. Different name, exact same issues, same result unless something drastically changes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why won't you answer the question? How many LPGA players have won with DL as their instructor in the past 3 years? Zero? Dozens? As far as I'm aware the answer is one win, Michelle in 2018.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't have a hatred for golf instruction. A 20 handicap who want to get down to a 10 could probably use some instruction. A young amateur with three wins on the professional tours? Not so much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is So Yeon's recent troubles due to interference by her parents, or swing changes made under the guiding hands of a top instructor? How about Jordon Spieth? Bad parenting or constant tweaking of his swing?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Interesting that the article mentions Dr. Park. Here's another sad case that can't be blamed on the parents. In Gee had nine wins on the KLPGA before coming to the LPGA. Since her rookie season of 2016 she has had two wins. Working with the good doctor, she's managed to lose 7 yds of driving distance in the past four seasons while most of the top players have gained 5+ yds. She's also missing more fairways. She had 11 top 10's in 2016, but only 1 so far this season.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > All said with zero experience on the subject. You think that somehow Lydia got there all on her own which shows just how deep your confusing and hatred run. It's pretty common though because of the ignorance golfers have about instruction.

> > > >

> > > > I'm looking at results. Yes, she won with DL, and she won before DL with Guy. She had a specific goal in working with DL, and she didn't achieve it. One doesn't have to be an instructor to see that the changes didn't result in achieving the goal.

> > >

> > > How many wins with DL. You keep dodging but it's understandable why.

> > >

> > > So she had a coach before even though you suggested players like her needed a coach " not so much". The specific example you used HAD A SWING COACH FOR YEARS AND THATS WHAT HELPED HER GET TO WHERE SHE WAS AT AN EARLY AGE.

> > >

> > > This is where you and people like you are out of your element. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and your ignorance about instruction, coaches and tour players wants and needs could fill volumes. Just keep in hating because you want to hate. Do you honestly believe that if swing coaches sucked as you suggested that they would still us them? Maybe we should discuss how the greatest player of this generation and his fellow GOAT both used instructors even after amazing amateur careers. Does your "not so much" theory apply to them also?

> >

> > I am pro swing coach, but dont want to get in the middle of your argument. Still I've yet to hear a knowledgeable opinion on the substantive swing changes that she made. They were not tweaks, they were wholesale changes. She changed her pivot, her takeaway, her downswing, and most notably, her release pattern. That's a lot of stuff to change on a player as dominant as LK, regardless of who may be the instructor.

> >

> > IMHO, changing her release pattern was a huge mistake. I believe she's lost the feel of what used to come naturally to her and gave her tremendous control over the golf ball, even if she couldnt hit a going draw....

>

> And the big question is who brought it about? All signs and past history point to mommy and daddy. They are heavy handed, interfere with her instruction ( just like Wies parents) and wouldn't let someone change all of those things if they weren't on board. I would bet my 401k that mom and dad told him they wanted a certain result ( it's even been mentioned by insiders) so to keep her as a client he had to try different things with their blessing of course. It's not something new and it's happened before. It puts the player and coach in a bad position.

>

> Chasing distance is like working with explosives because it takes time and patience and small movements. With a player like her you would have to take it very slow and I don't think her parents were in the mood to wait for that next big paycheck...I mean improvement. Imagine the pressure on her and her coaches.

>

> To your point it comes down to the player, or whoever speaks for them, deciding what they want to do and getting someone they trust to do it. Players don't always make the correct decisions about these things and neither do parents or some coaches.

>

> With her record I just can't see David saying " ok we need to change everything". He had a cash cow on his hands. For the same reason I could see him bending to the parents will when they made their demands.

>

>

 

I tend to agree with you about the parents. Although you have to give them credit for getting her there and raising a prodigy, at some point it's time for them to let go, and they seem to have struggled in that regard.

 

I'd say the only thing that makes it all a little suspect is that Leadbetter was publishing his "A Swing" book and methodology right around the same time that he began working with Ko. Much of the changes to Lydia's swing were consistent with this methodology.

[LICC]

> @Argonne69 said:

> The first thing that was noticeable with her swing was the loop at the top, especially with her wedges. Previously her wedges were a single plane. She also developed a two-way miss. Missing one-way is bad, but when a player has no idea where the ball might go, it's bad.

>

> As an amateur, Lydia was the youngest player to win a professional event at the time. She was the youngest player to win on the LPGA, and she never missed a cut in any of her 25 professional events. In late 2013 she had risen to #5 in the World rankings before she turned pro. She won her first professional event in her 9th start of the 2014 season in April. In the early part of the season she had three top 10s in eight events.

>

> Basically, Lydia was winning, and had the capability to win, long before she changed coaches. Her wonderful short game was the key to her success in my opinion. It allowed her to tinker with her swing, and still remain in the hunt. Some people may want to give credit to DL for the success of 2014 and 2015, but I say it was already in the cards. She stated quite clearly that she wanted to hit a draw, and pick up distance. There was basically no change from 2014 to 2015. I tried spot checking a few tournaments from early 2016, but the LPGA website is messing up the data. All tournaments for 2016 are showing a driving average of 237.5 yds, with 50% accuracy, and 67% GIR.

>

> Again, I don't think the DL changes were a ticking time bomb. They simply weren't working towards achieving her goal of picking up yardage. So Yeon gained 10 yds from 2014 (245) to 2016 (255). Mi Hyang picked up 8 yds. In hindsight we see that distance gain was going to be a big factor in the next few years. Her team likely saw that.

>

 

It seems like Ko, influenced by her parents, wanted to change her swing to the swing that DL teaches. I don’t think he went to them and seduced her. DL teaches a type of swing with more width, routing changes, and is meant for a draw. Ko wanted that swing and went to him. How can you blame him for teaching her the swing she chose? Why would he teach her something else? She went to him precisely because of the swing he teaches. I don’t fault him for teaching her the swing she wanted. I blame her for her bad choice to try to change her swing for more distance.

[Argonne69]

Sigh. I don't blame her for wanting to hit a draw. I don't blame him for teaching her his swing. When it didn't add distance, and cost her accuracy after two seasons, I don't blame her for moving on. Is that so difficult to comprehend? If something is not working, you move on. Blaming her parents 3 years after the fact is poor form.

 

[Tiptx1122]

Ever since she made her switch to PXG it was all down hill ever since. She still is a great player but she will never reach her level until she quits chasing after big money contracts. She will make more money by playing what she used to play as she will get a few more majors plus many more wins. Sorry it's just as fact Lol!

[Argonne69]

> @Tiptx1122 said:

> Ever since she made her switch to PXG it was all down hill ever since. She still is a great player but she will never reach her level until she quits chasing after big money contracts. She will make more money by playing what she used to play as she will get a few more majors plus many more wins. Sorry it's just as fact Lol!

 

Lol. Fact. Callaway has so few wins on the LPGA in the past few years it's laughable.

 

Fact. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

 

[JerryTBall]

I found this thread curious myself & what others have to say why a player of her ability just seemed to stop playing the great golf she used too? Like today, finished-5 at Indy, under par but no threat. The only thing I could attribute it to would be that her body is changing, I mean she went from this, for a lack of a better word, soft looking young girl to now she’s looking tall and skinny! It’s kind of like Phil Mickelson, his transformation, weight loss, more working out and his games not there either, I hope she gets back into the swing of things.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @JerryTBall said:

> I found this thread curious myself & what others have to say why a player of her ability just seemed to stop playing the great golf she used too? Like today, finished-5 at Indy, under par but no threat. The only thing I could attribute it to would be that her body is changing, I mean she went from this, for a lack of a better word, soft looking young girl to now she’s looking tall and skinny! It’s kind of like Phil Mickelson, his transformation, weight loss, more working out and his games not there either, I hope she gets back into the swing of things.

It's possible, although I would have thought the fitness would have helped or at least she'd have it figured out by now (I'd say it's more likely age is finally catching up to Phil. His fitness level has bounced around a couple times, although maybe not to this degree). She does look even thinner this year than the beginning of last year though.

 

It would be interesting to see how she'd stack up if she still had her A game, even at 250 off the tee. As others have said, the competition is different today but if her accuracy off the tee / GIR were still good and leading to ~70 scoring average +/-, I think she'd have a real chance multiple times throughout the year.

 

She could still pull off a win this year, which would change the perspective of things. If not, it will be interesting to see if she can re-tool for next year. Unfortunately, her game is basically in a three-year decline, and the drop-off this year is quite noticeable. It's too bad, as I can't think of a better player/person to be ranking up wins / creating attention for the women's game, and representing the LPGA tour.

[JerryTBall]

Well put and I know when I was going through my 250 down to my 220 and back up again it would change my swing from outside in to inside out depending on losing weight or gaining weight lol, yeah good luck to her

[GoGoErky]

Nike Adams during swing expedition with Chris Como mentions how her and yani struggled after they changed their swing type away from their natural swing type