Wedge search for firm/hardpan turf (Texas, etc)

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Oknows said:

> > @ChrisO72 said:

> > Bounce is your friend!!

>

> Have you played on a Texas course during the summer after 2 months of no rain?

 

Thud...click. LOL!

[Oknows]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @Oknows said:

> > > @ChrisO72 said:

> > > Bounce is your friend!!

> >

> > Have you played on a Texas course during the summer after 2 months of no rain?

>

> Thud...click. LOL!

 

Exactly.

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @ChrisO72 said:

> Bounce is your friend!!

 

Too much bounce when it’s super firm and it feels like a jackhammer plus in order to get the correct grooves on the ball you end up steep with too much shaft lean. The tool will train you into poor technique.

 

 

[Trying4Better]

> @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > @Trying4Better said:

> > > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > I went and got some leading edge heights measured. Cleveland rtx4 56 low bounce is an absolute Links grind. Sits super low. Almost too low. It better be firm and you better be shallow. Ping glide 58 3.0 sits very low at .236 also in the range of links grinds. The two vokey’s mentikned here are tall. L grind sits at .285 and the M sits at .290. Ping glide eye 2 sits at .305. Not a Links grind at all. Wouldn’t even attempt it.

> >

> > Curious what the actual measurement of the rtx4 56 was? And curious what the rtx4 58 and 60 x-low is? All of us here in NTX are curious!

>

> Actual measurement of the Cleveland 56 low was .216. The 58xlow was .212-.213. The 58 low was .210.

>

> Those are super super low links grinds. Not sure I would suggest anything quite that low to folks unless they are playing links golf consistently.

>

> The lowest jaws I could find were up around .270.

>

>

 

Interesting the 58 low was lower than the 58 xlow….. wonder how that could be? Sorry to bother you with more, but do you have the measurements on the 60 low and xlow? And, if its not too much trouble...…..the Mizuno T20?

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @Trying4Better said:

> > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > @Trying4Better said:

> > > > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > > I went and got some leading edge heights measured. Cleveland rtx4 56 low bounce is an absolute Links grind. Sits super low. Almost too low. It better be firm and you better be shallow. Ping glide 58 3.0 sits very low at .236 also in the range of links grinds. The two vokey’s mentikned here are tall. L grind sits at .285 and the M sits at .290. Ping glide eye 2 sits at .305. Not a Links grind at all. Wouldn’t even attempt it.

> > >

> > > Curious what the actual measurement of the rtx4 56 was? And curious what the rtx4 58 and 60 x-low is? All of us here in NTX are curious!

> >

> > Actual measurement of the Cleveland 56 low was .216. The 58xlow was .212-.213. The 58 low was .210.

> >

> > Those are super super low links grinds. Not sure I would suggest anything quite that low to folks unless they are playing links golf consistently.

> >

> > The lowest jaws I could find were up around .270.

> >

> >

>

> Interesting the 58 low was lower than the 58 xlow….. wonder how that could be? Sorry to bother you with more, but do you have the measurements on the 60 low and xlow? And, if its not too much trouble...…..the Mizuno T20?

 

 

Because leading edge height is a resultant of a number of things that make up the soles geometry and are not just about a bounce number. Also that’s just one wedge. Manufacturing tolerances being what they are in the club business no guarantee that happens again if you grab two more but they will probably be close. The 58 and the 60 are going to be nearly identical soles both designed as lob wedge soles.

 

[dlygrisse]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Try looking at how the leading edge sits to the ground. You can play more bounce in hard pan ( I know. I have hard red clay ) if the leading edge is on the ground. Making truly less “ effective “ bounce.

> > > >

> > > > I personally like a sand wedge to have more bounce stated. Then I’ll bend it 2 degrees strong to get the leading edge down. So buy a 56 and bend it to 54. That gives you more options. A low bounce L grind lob wedge coupled with an S or M grind sand bent strong gives loads of options.

> > >

> > > I used to never agree with this until I watched the most recent TXG video compared wedge launch and spin for 40 and 70 yard shots of low and high bounce wedges, on both soft and firm turf conditions. Oddly enough, the high bounce wedge actually spun more, which... I guess isn't that odd if you stop and think why (lower contact on the face).

> > >

> > > As long as you don't open the face a huge amount and play a lot of square faced pitches, I think you can still play higher bounce wedges and it may actually be beneficial. I'm actually now considering trying to find a higher bounce 64 degree that I can play square faced out of my firmer-ish bunkers

> >

> > You wouldn’t believe the people who’ve asked me “ how do you get that much check on short shots. “. And I tell them and then they don’t believe me. Lol. Truthfully. It’s a fine line. I’ve had wedges I couldn’t get to roll out 6 inches of my life depended on it. I’d picture a landing spot and hit that. And the ball would hit and die. Or at times side sauce ( Philism) one way or another. You have to pick a combo of wedge and ball to get what you want.

> > I actually agree. I don’t want huge bounce and a high leading edge. But. I don’t prefer low bounce and a low leading edge always either. Especially on rainy days. Pm grind is the perfect in between wedge in my opinion. And I can clip the legs out from under a ball from the cartpath if I want to. It’s all about speed at the bottom and where your weight is. I’m interested in the new eye 2 lob myself. Maybe a 62 ish loft.

>

> Yep, I never got pitches of like 30 yards to 1 check stop until I switched to my slightly higher bounce hi toe. First time I did it, I thought I skulled the ball because it felt a touch thin and it flew about 10 feet high for the flight... but nope, landed about 3 feet from pin, hopped once and dead stopped. I always played 8* vokey's and it always seemed to slide under the ball and was more of a high soft flight that would roll out a decent amount.

>

>

>

 

You guys are dead on correct. Squared face nippers hit about a groove low will spin like crazy if you make clean contact. The proper amount of bounce/grind will make that shot happen much more consistently. I really like the Vokey M grind and the Ping SS grind from most lies and most course conditions. Good all around options are the best in my opinion. The other option is to carry wedges with different grinds for different lies. You could always go with a high bounce SW and a lower bounce LW. For me though, I like having a similar grind on both.

[bopper53]

New ping 3.0 wedge with the TS Grind.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Trying4Better said:

> > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > @Trying4Better said:

> > > > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > > I went and got some leading edge heights measured. Cleveland rtx4 56 low bounce is an absolute Links grind. Sits super low. Almost too low. It better be firm and you better be shallow. Ping glide 58 3.0 sits very low at .236 also in the range of links grinds. The two vokey’s mentikned here are tall. L grind sits at .285 and the M sits at .290. Ping glide eye 2 sits at .305. Not a Links grind at all. Wouldn’t even attempt it.

> > >

> > > Curious what the actual measurement of the rtx4 56 was? And curious what the rtx4 58 and 60 x-low is? All of us here in NTX are curious!

> >

> > Actual measurement of the Cleveland 56 low was .216. The 58xlow was .212-.213. The 58 low was .210.

> >

> > Those are super super low links grinds. Not sure I would suggest anything quite that low to folks unless they are playing links golf consistently.

> >

> > The lowest jaws I could find were up around .270.

> >

> >

>

> Interesting the 58 low was lower than the 58 xlow….. wonder how that could be? Sorry to bother you with more, but do you have the measurements on the 60 low and xlow? And, if its not too much trouble...…..the Mizuno T20?

 

The leading edge height should be a function of the bounce angle and the distance from the leading edge to the low point of the sole at zero shaft lean (denoted here as lever arm). A wedge with a sole low point near the back of the sole can have a low bounce angle with a higher than expected leading edge height because of the long lever arm. Conversely a higher bounce angle wedge with the sole low point close to the leading edge can have a low leading edge height because of the very short lever arm.

[ChaosTheory]

I found this thread because I am playing off hardpan this winter at my everyman course in AZ. I used drill bits to measure wedges I have on hand. None current but still should translate to current ones.

SM4 58-12 M grind: .295

SM4 54-14 F grind (narrow sole): .250

MD2 58/10 S grind: .262

MD2 54/14 bent to 53, S grind: .219 (I double checked, including checking the loft)

Maltby Tricept 1.20" sole, 58/6: .262

So that last one is interesting. It's low enough to use square on hardpan, but if you need a lot of bounce in soft sand, open it up and you'll have a lot. What you can't do is open it up and keep the leading edge down.

[Pepperturbo]

NOT with my swing, but may with someone that is more of a digger.

I prefer minimal to zero "camber" heal to toe, front/leading to back/trailing edge, or more of a flat sole with more of a sharp leading edge like my 620's have. Titleist calls it tour refined. That way with low bounce allows me to sweep or scrap the surface of the turf to roots as opposed to dig. Also reason my wedges are F&M 8*. I have and can play higher bounce wedges, just don't like to.

Most of my play is in CA, AZ, TX and HI.

[Pepperturbo]

@ChrisO72 I know people that say Trees are your friend too. Trees eat errant golf balls and leave them in inconspicuous places. Not a friend. Sorry, but on firm/hard-pan with high bounce can = skull. Therefore IMO neither are everyone's friend. Bounce is a diggers friend, otherwise he'd be seeing China rather often.

[b.mattay]

Vokey V-grind, bounce is situated in the middle of the sole, so there is about 20 degrees of bounce from front to middle, but the leading edge doesn't rise excessively

[Fort Worth Pro]

V grind leading edge is pretty darn tall

[dmeeksDC]

Had no idea the RTX 58 low that I use had such a low leading edge, but it works so well for me on tight greenside lies, the best I have used for those pitches. Doesn’t seem difficult at all, actually a lot easier than others.

[scott_Donald]

I was shocked when Jamie said that all the Artisan wedges have a lower leading edge than all my current Vokeys.

[bladehunter]

We have red clay in South Carolina upstate that is same as you describe. Concrete under grass. Which is why no matter how much I try , I cannot get used to a wide sole iron . I love them for a month during sloppy winter golf. Then it dries out. And poof. Thin misses are really penalized and it trains you to get steep. Which ruins every other club. No thanks. Every player should be so lucky as to learn to play off cartpath. It would make wide soled irons with high vertical COG a non seller.

[ThinkingPlus]

BH, what bounce are you using? Would love to see someone compare bounce angle performance vs wide sole effective bounce performance.

[bladehunter]

My current wedges are glide forged. 54 is effective 10 and 60 effective 8 so ping says. Both have relatively wide sole grinds.

in they aren’t relieved much on the leading or trailing edge. More of a full sole. I don’t find them to be really “ low bounce “ though. The artisan set that’s being built for me now will play as lower leading edge and bounce.

as for irons. I’ve not found a set that’s too low. Lol. Blueprints I have are modified by ping with leading edge and heel relief. And still don’t slice turf quite like I want. But is ok in all but the driest 4-5 weeks we get. They progress from 4 degrees in a 2 iron to 13 with PW. For comparison. Lots of older MBs had near zero for long irons as late as say titleist 680. Which has 2 degrees from 2 through pw. Adam Scott recently spoke on this after his win at genesis. It’s he main reason he stays with 680. Newer clubs all have so much bounce , they feel so different.

[bladehunter]

@ThinkingPlus I totally get the difference between wide soles vs effective bounce. I can show you a titleist custom grind set of irons that has a very wide soled pitching wedge . I mean it looks like a k grind vokey lob wedge. But it plays like near zero bounce. Lovely little wedge.
mso didn’t mean to generalize in that way. It’s not wide soled that bugs me. It’s loads of bounce and a blunt /high leading edge. It just gets generalized that way because most wide soles are higher bounce. And if I’m not mistaken all advertised bounce measurements aren’t created equal. As in there isn’t a standard they measure by.

[ThinkingPlus]

My TS1s are 3° - 4°. They generally feel like razor blades to me. Keeping the leading edge close to the ground on wedges seems key regardless of bounce when dealing with firm turf/hard pan. I really hate a club's design dictating how I can use it.

[bladehunter]

Just read up on that iron. Had no idea. Why are all the major oems so shy about making a low bounce iron with modern features ?

[ThinkingPlus]

Because a lot of golf in the US is played in swamps (over watered soft lush yuck) and there are tons of instructors peddling "bounce is your friend". It can be and I don't hate bounce, but conditions and swing type have to be compliant with that design feature (soft sand, soft turf, digger swing, etc...). Firm turf/hard pan + shallow swing + high bounce = broken windows in the clubhouse.

[Pepperturbo]

@ThinkingPlus
To your comparison... I have Vokey 52/8* and 58/8* in bag and custom made for me, 2-LW MacGregor forged MB blades, with matching MacGregor blade wedges 54/8* & 56/8* and 60/2*. I never liked high-bounce anything. Anyway, MacGregor wedges have very wide soles when next to Vokey with same low bounce, and lower to the ground leading edge. I learned the game opening and closing 2-5* low bounce wedges to fit conditions.
Amazing how easy the MacGregor 60/2* wide sole is to use and how wonderful they feel at impact. Might have to re-shaft 54 and 60 and put them back in the bag. Not sure if it's the sound of Vokey and or head material but I never fell in love them, just in-like.
@bladehunter
I suspect it's because low bounce is still low in the hands of a mid-high cap golfers (largest market) yet little to no wedge skill so complaining a lot.

[herbert7890]

Exactly this! I live in san antonio and most of the courses here are hard pan. I'm planning to order the new Vokey SM8 56 and 60 wedge. 60 will be L (4 bounce) and 56 will be M (8 bounce). Im very confident this will help a ton on my wedge game (I used to have a Cleveland low bounce wedge set back in the day and they were awesome in hard pan.

[ThinkingPlus]

Does the wide sole help any with a tight into grain chip/short pitch? You know the shot that leaves the Bermuda peeled up looking like a really bad haircut.

[Pepperturbo]

I understand your question. No, it can't overcome into the grain pitch shot. Tight conditions always require proper execution and no matter the wedge design, the divot of Bermuda or other types of turf will look like a bad haircut. LOL IMO the key is maintaining the club head though the shot.

[ThinkingPlus]

Well, I keep hoping that some combination of sole width and grind will help with the into grain shots.

[scott_Donald]

 

I was told that bevelling the leading edge will make a massive difference.

[ThinkingPlus]

Seems like that could help.

[Hattie Pants]

I’m in DFW, play a 58 D grind (bounce 12 degree) as my lob wedge. No issue on the surfaces here. Unless it’s grassless hard pan it does great. If it’s sitting on dirt I either punch a hybrid along, or square face it depending on the situation