New and Improved Shaft Chart

[Howard_Jones]

> @hwturner17 said:

> Do we have any idea where the Project X LZ's fall on the original chart? I apologize if that has already been touched upon

 

Ive tried a endless number of times to tell how USELESS a compare like this is for the avid Golfer, only highly skilled club fitters have a limited value of it. Compared by butt CPM alone, PX LZ is more than one full flex softer, or LZ 6.5 is softer than standard PX 5.5, but thats NOT how they feel and play. The general advice is to go "1 PX flex number" up from the standard so PX LZ 6.0 is the model we can compare to PX 5.5, but since weight is different, we have to take that into considerations. For short LZ is softer than the standard with the same flex number, and launch is higher.

 

This is NOT a "full profile", but the best i can offer for compare of PX model relevant here.

(if the same model is on 2 lines, its 2 shafts measured so we get to see the "tolerances" there might be so we dont read any of this numbers as "absolute" numbers, but values of the actual shafts that was measured.

 

 

[Negncic]

Howard, I appreciate all the information you provided. It made me realize that looking at numbers on a chart is not the way for me to pick a shaft instead, a proper fitting with someone who knows what they are doing is the way to go.

[Negncic]

> @Negncic said:

> Howard, I appreciate all the information you provided both in this thread and your recent reply to the lie board thread. I did not realize there is many variables involved. It made me realize that looking at numbers on a chart is not the way for me to pick a shaft instead, a proper fitting with someone who knows what they are doing is the way to go.

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @Negncic said:

> Howard, I appreciate all the information you provided. It made me realize that looking at numbers on a chart is not the way for me to pick a shaft instead, a proper fitting with someone who knows what they are doing is the way to go.

 

Absolutely, shafts should be chosen by Weight, Feel and Dispersion, and we cant predict how a certain shaft will feel or perform in your hands. Way to often, a player use what he got as reference, like it was the right shaft for him, but during fitting ends up with something that was not even on the radar as option. Numbers like shaft charts is nice for club fitters to navigate in, but its silly hard for a avid player to make sense of any of this numbers, and in the end, as humans we are not compatible with numbers.

 

Go to a place where they taking fitting serious, and bring your own clubs for reference, and be a active part of it. Tell what you like and dislike with what you got, and what difference you want, that would make the club fitters job easier, and always give feedback of how it feels. Bee it weight, balance, profile or flex. The club fitter can only see you swing, and look at his launch monitor, but he knows nothing about your experience with it all, and thats what really matters.

[zmosnot]

Cheers to this. I’ve been down the shaft “rabbit hole”. This helps!!

[Deluxe186]

that list is just way too much for me!

[Howard_Jones]

> @Deluxe186 said:

> that list is just way too much for me!

 

Is it the list on this page with PX shafts?

Simple stuff, its measurement of CPM or Cycles pr minute, a system originally invented by Brunswick Royal Precision, so its a system for flex compare of shafts.

To compare 2 shafts we should look at the difference as a difference in % plus or minus. anything below 1% would be hard to notice but many does, 1 full % is about half a flex (5.0 to 5.5) , 2% is one full flex (5.0 to 6.0). PX flex labels is just like the L.A.R.S.X system, there is NO standard or "fixed value" for how strong "S flex" is, neither for how strong "6.0" is on PX shafts. They are simply a address in that shaft family and CANT be used for direct compare between 2 different models. Thats why charts like this one is made, so we can make a "apple to apple" compare of how strong 2 different models actually is.

On this chart you can see that the standard PX is "strong to flex", while PXI and LZ is "softer models" when flex label is the same. Some shafts models is 2 examples of the same shaft, and shows "tolerances"...no shaft is "equal" but might wary a bit and we never know before we have measured the actual shaft.

 

Example for use, the player has the standard PX as flex 5.0 and wants to try PXI and about the same ACTUAL flex as he has now. He must look at PXI 6.5 who is the closest match, but PXI 6.5 will still be softer tip side vs PX 5.0, so the standard PX series is very strong vs flex label.

 

[mylesb21]

> @Tbone1976 said:

> Howard,

>

> I currently play the PX 5.5 straight in. Although I enjoy them, I am wondering if my ball flight is creeping up on the "high" side. Having said that, your chart shows the C-Taper R+ straight in at a FCM of 5.7. Could this .2 difference with equal shaft weight and a little different shaft design characteristics give me just that little bit of lower flight?

>

>

>

> Thanks

 

I have the same question. I currently play PX 5.5 and would like a lower ball flight, but with a similar shaft weight. Any suggestions?

[Howard_Jones]

> @mylesb21 said:

> > @Tbone1976 said:

> > Howard,

> >

> > I currently play the PX 5.5 straight in. Although I enjoy them, I am wondering if my ball flight is creeping up on the "high" side. Having said that, your chart shows the C-Taper R+ straight in at a FCM of 5.7. Could this .2 difference with equal shaft weight and a little different shaft design characteristics give me just that little bit of lower flight?

> >

> >

> >

> > Thanks

>

> I have the same question. I currently play PX 5.5 and would like a lower ball flight, but with a similar shaft weight. Any suggestions?

 

If shaft weight is good, feel is good, and dispersion is good as it is, bend lofts stronger

[mylesb21]

I’ve already strengthened my 714CB’s 2 degrees (ie. 7i=33 degrees), so I can’t go any stronger. I’m waiting for delivery of a set of p760’s—with these I can bend them stronger than my current set since the 7i is 33deg standard. May try that out.

 

I’m asking about alternative shafts since I love to experiment. I tested the p760’s with DG S400 shafts and they felt very smooth. They come stock with DG 120 S300 shafts, so I’ll try them before considering a change back to my current PX 5.5’s or swapping with DG S300’s (I own many pullouts).

[lxadoz104]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Deluxe186 said:

> > that list is just way too much for me!

>

> Is it the list on this page with PX shafts?

> Simple stuff, its measurement of CPM or Cycles pr minute, a system originally invented by Brunswick Royal Precision, so its a system for flex compare of shafts.

> To compare 2 shafts we should look at the difference as a difference in % plus or minus. anything below 1% would be hard to notice but many does, 1 full % is about half a flex (5.0 to 5.5) , 2% is one full flex (5.0 to 6.0). PX flex labels is just like the L.A.R.S.X system, there is NO standard or "fixed value" for how strong "S flex" is, neither for how strong "6.0" is on PX shafts. They are simply a address in that shaft family and CANT be used for direct compare between 2 different models. Thats why charts like this one is made, so we can make a "apple to apple" compare of how strong 2 different models actually is.

> On this chart you can see that the standard PX is "strong to flex", while PXI and LZ is "softer models" when flex label is the same. Some shafts models is 2 examples of the same shaft, and shows "tolerances"...no shaft is "equal" but might wary a bit and we never know before we have measured the actual shaft.

>

> Example for use, the player has the standard PX as flex 5.0 and wants to try PXI and about the same ACTUAL flex as he has now. He must look at PXI 6.5 who is the closest match, but PXI 6.5 will still be softer tip side vs PX 5.0, so the standard PX series is very strong vs flex label.

>

>

 

Howard,

 

Great information and as always this is nice to reference. As a guy who has continued to try shafts, and I've been through full fittings and come out with X100, X7 (in 2015-2017) and more recently Steelfiber 110cw Stiff and C-Taper Lite 110 Stiff, I've had issues across my iron set with the C-Taper Lite 110 Stiff (long irons were pure, the 9-U just spun way too much)...I've returned to ZZ65 with Ping clubs as I think about what I like.

 

It's clear that weight-wise, 110g these days is what I like the best (the ZZ65 at 109g, Steelfiber 110cw, even the CT Lite 110), but I do need the reduce spin and launch. Is there any chance you have (or plan to) chart the newer DG offerings? I can't find anything on the Dynamic Gold 120 stuff. I hit the DG 120 S300 and would likely need to hard step it. Can't seem to find a fitter that has the DG120 X100.

[Howard_Jones]

No i dont have the latest True Temper options, but if spin is the issue, go stronger on lofts.

[LaterOn61]

I’m playing 112.5 gram PXI in my irons. Shouldn’t my wedge shafts be heavier?

[lxadoz104]

Thanks for the insight Howard. I ended up doing a good bit of testing - and had not tried the AWT 2.0 by Ping (only the AWT). I ended up Power Spec'ing the G400's in AWT 2.0 Stiff and I think the weight is good for me, the spin was perfect for the launch and ball speed. I appreciate the idea to consider stronger lofts as the G400 4-U at Power Spec are what I prefer too (UW at 47.5* is like the old Ping or more traditional sets for a PW). I like carrying a 47, 52, 57 wedge set up and this will work well.

[3woodvt]

Glad I found this thread again. Been away for a year and just got some new bats with project x lz. Trying to find comparison data from my old 945 KBS 120S. Howard gives the information with explanations that we need and thanks for the charts.  The PX 6.0 in the past felt a little to boardy for me and the LZ that i knew little about, I was worried would be to stiff but they're definitely softer.  Great thread to read through.  The LZs and delofting 1 degree and 3 on the wedges has definitely lowered flight and spin, KBS were fine but hit a little to high for my liking.

Once my friend bent the lie 1.5 flatter and modified lofts the irons feel great.  Only 1 round in but hit first 10 greens and ended up with 74 after 3 month layoff.  Gonna switch over to putter forums as putting was horrible...Thanks again for this thread sticking around so long.

 

[Jim53]

Is it even remotely possible to compare a Driver shaft performance / feel to an iron shaft? I play a GD AD BB 7x in my driver and love the feel of the shaft loading and unloading and would like a similar feeling in an iron shaft, having tried and owned a lot of different brands / flex it still seems to hard to come up with a decent comparison, maybe it is just not possible. I know what I want to achieve and even in fittings it is hard to recreate the feeling I am looking for and keep performance up. Either the flex is too soft and I lose control or too stiff and I lose distance.

I would like to stay in graphite iron shafts but do not get along with Recoils, I have had sucess with steelfibers but just can't find that unicorn that keeps the spin under control and dispersion reasonable for my ability. I plan another fitting in the next couple of weeks, but any suggestions would be welcome for reference going in.

[Ovalles593]

what would be the equivalent to the KBS C Taper lite Stiff shaft?

[JJgolfwrx]

Most similar in terms of profile would be SteelFiber i110 Stiff. However, it will swing weight two points lighter. There is not a shaft that I am aware of that is exact to a KBS C-Taper Lite.

[naws-golfer]

any way to find this information out on sub 100gr iron shafts. I really do well with lightweight shafts and would love to try something new, but don't want to go down a path if it will be too strong to start.

[Trying4Better]

Howard, do you have the profiles for the RIP a, B, Phenom, and Phenom NL? Preferably in 70 and 80 X and TX. I know some weren't offered in TX.

Huge bonus if you can add in a comparison to the Black Tie M4 and White Tie 70 and 80 X and TX

[Howard_Jones]

i only have a few of them, but not as full profiles, Non as TX , so this is the best i have as reply. Added some other as reference

[Howard_Jones]

This charts should have been up here long time ago, but better late than never.

DESCENDING WEIGHT SHAFTS - GRAMS PER INCHCOMPARABLE SHAFT WEIGHT TO CONSTANT WGT (Grams pr inch x uncut shaft length as a CONSTANT WGT. before butt cut)

NET. CUT WEIGHT DESCENDING WGT SHAFTS

- SAME LIST AS ABOVE - NOW CUT TO PLAY LENGTH.

CONSTANT WEIGHT SETS - GRAMS PR. INCH (Like the chart above but reversed since this is CONST WGT shafts)

3 Models TT AMT added - They move with 4.5 to 5 grams up or down when hard or soft stepped

CONSTANT WGT SET - ESTIMATED NET CUT SHAFT WGT

BUTT CPM REFERENCE CHART - PLAY READY CLUBS

MEASURED WITHOUT GRIPS USING A 5.0" CLAMP - SW Value D2

BOTH DESCENDING WGT AND TAPERS

IRON SETS - CPM SLOPE BASED ON 3-9 DIFFERENCE

FCM rating based on #6 vs FCM 2012 Chart - SORTED BY FCM RATING

Woods included for academical purpose - its shows us where the CPM slope from the IRON sets ends up if it was extended all the way to driver.

I DO NOT HAVE SIMILAR FOR OTHER SHAFTS NOT INCLUDED HERE BUT IF YOU HAVE BUTT CPM DATAS FOR IRONS - NO MATTER SHAFT MODEL - POST ALL SPECS YOU GOT.

WOODs GRAMS PR.INCH

[gibbyfan]

@Howard_Jones I am trying to figure about PX 6.5 Flighted( taper). I plan on SS a set of 6.5 Flighted to get the weight closer and flex closer to original with increased spin because of the softer flex/tip. I currently play satin 6.0, but need something that spins just a bit more. I just cannot recall all of the details about the flighted brand. Any other information you can remind me about Flighted.

[Howard_Jones]

PX Flighted is discontinued, so they might be hard to find, and you have Constant Wgt. now, while Flighted is a mix of 3 different Constant wgt blanks.

PXF 6.5 has 7.0 130 grams long irons, 6.5 125 grams mid irons, and 6.0 120 grams short irons, and they only move 1.65 grams when soft stepping.

Ball flight comes from Loft at impact, if you need higher launch and more spin, bend lofts weaker, thats the way we should do it.

If you go 1* weaker on loft you add 1* on bounce, but the same happens if the shaft delivered 1* more loft since we cant split loft and bounce

Loft bending makes a constant change, shafts a variable who is depending on the swing you put on it.

[gibbyfan]

@Howard_Jones Thank you for the feedback. I didn't realize the shafts in the long irons were 7.0 at 130 gr. Those, even SS, would have been too heavy and stiff. I am at such a loss. Love the PX feel and time the clubs really well, just can't spin it as much as I would like. Thanks again Howard.

[Howard_Jones]

The long irons are already soft stepped a tad more than once to make them "high launch", the short end is hard stepped, so the "set" plays to PX 6.0 as average, but you will still see about 10 grams from the long end to the short (descending) and most shafts in the set would be of a higher weight than you play now, only the short end would be in the area you are now.

Have a loft tweak done, its fast, cheap and works every time.

[cpeck]

was reading a few pages here trying to find a little info i am in need of, needless to say i could seem to and my brain hurts from all this frequency stuff for now.

 

my question is, I am currently playing a older set of KBS x shafts from 09/10 , they are in my set of mp68s assuming the 130g, I love the weight but I want something a little "softer" would the Nippon modus 130x be softer in theory because of the flex in the tip? would i even be able to tell the difference.

[Stuart_G]

No. Modus 130 x is stiffer than the KBS Tour X throughout the whole shaft, even the tip.

KBS Tour S+ or Modus 130 S might be worth trying. Both would be a bit softer - but they both also are going to be a little lighter at 125 gm.

TT DG s400 would be a bit softer in the butt and mid section - although a bit stiffer in the tip. So hard to say whether it will feel softer or firmer overall. Only way to find out is to give it a try.

[JJgolfwrx]

@cpeck
I agree with with Stuart,
Seen him many times give quality information regarding shafts. I would give the KBS Tour S+ a shot. It will play a little softer and will feel about the same in terms of weight when you swing it. Keep in mind, you might be able to feel a difference in the weight. If it feels too light, I would recommend putting increments of 2g strips of lead tape to dial in the weight feel. Just keep in mind when you add weight to the head you will increase the amount of effort to swing the club, and it will be play a little softer in terms of flex. However, that seems what you are looking for anyways. Below is some more technical information:

Modus130x (121g) KBS Tour X (122g) Modus 130s (116.5g) KBS Tour S+ (118.8g)
**Weights are an estimation when the shaft is cut to length. Butt Stiffness is from greatest to least (left to right).

Cheers,
JJ

[cpeck]

ok fellas, so i didn’t want to regret switching shafts completely , i went a head and ordered my same shafts. kbs tour x i think i’m either going to just keep on trucking because i do like them and feel comfortable or try and soft step if that seems like it would help me out in my quest.

 

od that doesn’t work and i can finally get some consistency on a golf course i’ll order up the s+

 

thanks for all the info much appreciated over here in lockdown.