New World Handicap System

[Newby]

We have a 450, 444, 428 men's tees as par 4

423, 413 ladies' tees as par 5

[GaHack1]

The new course handicap is now taking the course rating into account, basically doing away with the 3.5 adjustments for competing from different tees.

[Colin L]

> @Newby said:

> **Colin**

>

> Do I remember your saying that Scotland will using the first formula in post #16 or was it one for stableford and the other for medal?

 

We will be using Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113) for all formats.

 

If my memory is correct, there is only one divergence amongst the CONGU countries in that Wales and Ireland are including match play as acceptable scores whereas England and Scotland are not. If that's right, we are otherwise all following the same processes and so whatever you do, the rest of us are doing the same.

 

 

[Newby]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > **Colin**

> >

> > Do I remember your saying that Scotland will using the first formula in post #16 or was it one for stableford and the other for medal?

>

> We will be using Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113) for all formats.

>

> If my memory is correct, there is only one divergence amongst the CONGU countries in that Wales and Ireland are including match play as acceptable scores whereas England and Scotland are not. If that's right, we are otherwise all following the same processes and so whatever you do, the rest of us are doing the same.

>

>

 

Thanks.

 

I note that Ireland currently have the authority to adjust handicaps after non-qualifying competitions

[HatsForBats]

> @"Colin L" said:

> I would have expected that each set of tees would be recognised as marking out a discrete _course_ with its own par, course rating and slope rating for men and/or for women.

>

 

In the USGA system Par is irrelevant to the handicap equation. Each set of tees has it’s own course rating and slope which are used to produce the differential of each round. It sounds like your ‘Par’ for the total course is similar to our Course Rating rounded to the nearest whole number. Once a Course Rating is added then Par does not need to change from tee box to tee box.

 

 

 

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > I would have expected that each set of tees would be recognised as marking out a discrete _course_ with its own par, course rating and slope rating for men and/or for women.

> >

> In the USGA system Par is irrelevant to the handicap equation. Each set of tees has it’s own course rating and slope which are used to produce the differential of each round. It sounds like your ‘Par’ for the total course is similar to our Course Rating rounded to the nearest whole number. Once a Course Rating is added then Par does not need to change from tee box to tee box.

>

 

So what is the purpose of the alternative calculation **Course Handicap = Handicap index Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)** ?

 

 

 

[HatsForBats]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > I would have expected that each set of tees would be recognised as marking out a discrete _course_ with its own par, course rating and slope rating for men and/or for women.

> > >

> > In the USGA system Par is irrelevant to the handicap equation. Each set of tees has it’s own course rating and slope which are used to produce the differential of each round. It sounds like your ‘Par’ for the total course is similar to our Course Rating rounded to the nearest whole number. Once a Course Rating is added then Par does not need to change from tee box to tee box.

> >

>

> So what is the purpose of the alternative calculation **Course Handicap = Handicap index Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)** ?

>

>

>

 

In 2020 that would be to adjust for players playing in the same competition from different sets of tees. Currently the USGA uses the course rating difference between tees to adjust one of the players course handicap for that competition. Par is not currently used.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > I would have expected that each set of tees would be recognised as marking out a discrete _course_ with its own par, course rating and slope rating for men and/or for women.

> > >

> > In the USGA system Par is irrelevant to the handicap equation. Each set of tees has it’s own course rating and slope which are used to produce the differential of each round. It sounds like your ‘Par’ for the total course is similar to our Course Rating rounded to the nearest whole number. Once a Course Rating is added then Par does not need to change from tee box to tee box.

> >

>

> So what is the purpose of the alternative calculation **Course Handicap = Handicap index Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)** ?

>

>

>

 

First it makes 'net medal scoring' make sense. A scratch golfer shooting 'net par' on a course rated 8 strokes under par is a very different thing from a scratch golfer shooting 'net par' on a course with a CR of around par. This means that a Stableford score of 'whatever' is virtually meaningless without the adjustment (unless you know the CR/Slope of the course and do additional calculations). and it further means that additional adjustments are required for mixed tee competitions.

 

dave

[Newby]

Even more confused now (not a difficult task) but can someone explain just when which of these formulae may/should/must be used and why.

 

1) CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)

2) CH = H Index * (Slope/113)

[HatsForBats]

CH = H Index * (Slope/113) = used currently (2019) for Course handicap when players are playing the same tee

CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par) = **supposedly** the new formula for Course Handicap, for any tee, for 2020

 

CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR of Longer Tee - CR of Shorter Tee) = Current (2019) formula to calculate course handicap for player playing shorter tees versus player form longer tees.

[Colin L]

I can only inform you of the World Handicap System. I don't know enough about the current USGA system to comment and it doesn't matter since you will be adapting as necessary to its requirements just as we in CONGU will be adapting.

 

It is necessary to have Par fixed for every hole of a course. It is needed to calculate net double bogey for each hole in order to know the maximum score for handicapping purposes. It is obviously needed by those Associations which opt to calculate Course Handicaps using the CR- Par adjustment. It is also need for stableford, par and bogey competitions. Determining par is a matter solely of the length of a hole; determining course rating adjusts length according to factors such as roll, wind, elevation changes, altitude, forced lay-ups, doglegs and then there are 10 "obstacle factors" to be taken into account, including topography, greens, bunker, rough, penalty areas and so on.

 

The Course Rating, Slope Rating and Par should be available to players for each set of tees. It just needs a hole on one set of tees to be shorter than the recommended length of a Par 5 while from another set of tees it is in the range for a Par 5 and you have a 1 stroke difference in terms of maximum score.

 

The length parameters for Par 3, 4, 5, and 6 are necessarily different for women and so the Par for one set of tees will differ between the men's and the women's.

 

In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

> @HatsForBats said:

> CH = H Index * (Slope/113) = used currently (2019) for Course handicap when players are playing the same tee

> CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par) = **supposedly** the new formula for Course Handicap, for any tee, for 2020

>

> CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR of Longer Tee - CR of Shorter Tee) = Current (2019) formula to calculate course handicap for player playing shorter tees versus player form longer tees.

 

The first two are the ones supported by the WHS.

National Associations will decide which for themselves I understand.

[Halebopp]

> @HatsForBats said:

> CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR of Longer Tee - CR of Shorter Tee) = Current (2019) formula to calculate course handicap for player playing shorter tees versus player form longer tees.

 

That can't be right as the Slope changes depending on the tees and gender.

[Deceptively Short]

I like the concept of number 2 in your example. It gives a clearer idea of what score is needed to play to one’s handicap index.

Nothing worse than thinking you have had a really good round, then discovering (now) that the SSS, off the tees you played, is in actual fact 3 below the par.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR of Longer Tee - CR of Shorter Tee) = Current (2019) formula to calculate course handicap for player playing shorter tees versus player form longer tees.

>

> That can't be right as the Slope changes depending on the tees and gender.

 

That is the adjustment for a mixed tee competition where 'SLOPE' is from the tee that you are playing.

 

dave

[Newby]

> @"Colin L" said:

 

> In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

>

As CONGU is not using the "CR-par " adjustment it would appear that a mixed gender comp has anomaly if there is a par difference. We are encouraged to play mixed gender and mixed competitions and it is inevitable there will be hole par differences on many courses. We have par 4 men par 5 women at my club. How will your last sentence work?

Or is it assumed that the extra length will is compensated for in the CR somehow?

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

> @Newby said:

> Even more confused now (not a difficult task) but can someone explain just when which of these formulae may/should/must be used and why.

>

> 1) CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)

> 2) CH = H Index * (Slope/113)

 

 

 

#2 is what you would use in 2019 in the US

 

(I have NO idea why this is bold)

 

In 2020 #2 will no longer be correct, and the correct calculation will be along the lines of #1, but (particularly how Par is used in this calculation) is less than clear to me.

 

dave

 

[randywall]

I suspect the new WHS will cause my index to drop. If it weren't for 2 or 3 blow up holes each round, I'd be a "better" golfer. If the highest score for hcp purposes is NDB, as opposed to 8 (for my 28 index), some of my higher scoring holes will be taken out of the equation.

[HatsForBats]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR of Longer Tee - CR of Shorter Tee) = Current (2019) formula to calculate course handicap for player playing shorter tees versus player form longer tees.

>

> That can't be right as the Slope changes depending on the tees and gender.

 

Pinehurst #2

 

**PLAYERS**

Player A = Male 10.0 index from Blue Tees

Player B = Male 10.0 index from Red Tees

Player C = Female 10.0 index from the Red Tees

 

**TEES**

Blue (male)= 73.7/133

Red (male) = 65.5/117

Red (female) = 70.3/127

 

**Strokes**

A at Blue Tees = 12 strokes | 10.0*133/113

B at Red Tees = 2 strokes | 10 strokes - 8 | 10.0 * 117/113 – (73.7 – 65.5)

C at Red Tees = 8 strokes | 11 strokes - 3 | 10.0 * 127/113 – (73.7 – 70.3)

 

[Halebopp]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > CH = H Index * (Slope/113) - (CR of Longer Tee - CR of Shorter Tee) = Current (2019) formula to calculate course handicap for player playing shorter tees versus player form longer tees.

> >

> > That can't be right as the Slope changes depending on the tees and gender.

>

> That is the adjustment for a mixed tee competition where 'SLOPE' is from the tee that you are playing.

>

> dave

 

Ah, now I (think I) understand you, once I put it into Excel myself. Even so, it still doesn't seem quite right to me.

 

Hence I'm hoping we'll stick with our current EGA method to count course handicaps and everyone getting their full allocation in net tournaments.

[HatsForBats]

> @"Colin L" said:

> In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

>

 

As I have shown the current USGA system does NOT need the total par from different sets of tees as Course Rating handles that. However, let's not digress into that.

 

When you have a mixed tee competiton you could have 2 male players playing the same hole with one playing it as a Par 5 from back tees and another player it is a par 4 from tees farther up? With such wide ranges of Course Ratings there will apparently be many holes where players are playing the same hole as a diffrent par for that individual hole?

 

 

[davep043]

> @randywall said:

> I suspect the new WHS will cause my index to drop. If it weren't for 2 or 3 blow up holes each round, I'd be a "better" golfer. If the highest score for hcp purposes is NDB, as opposed to 8 (for my 28 index), some of my higher scoring holes will be taken out of the equation.

 

Remember, you'll be able to take 9 on some (maybe all) of the par-5 holes, but yeah, only 6 on almost all par-3s.

[HatsForBats]

> @randywall said:

> I suspect the new WHS will cause my index to drop. If it weren't for 2 or 3 blow up holes each round, I'd be a "better" golfer. If the highest score for hcp purposes is NDB, as opposed to 8 (for my 28 index), some of my higher scoring holes will be taken out of the equation.

 

Your highest postable score is based on your **Course Handicap** not your index. If your **index** is 28.0 then any set of tees you play with a slope rating of 120 or higher means the maximum you can take is a 9. On a slope of 119 or less then your maximum is an 8.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

> >

>

> As I have shown the current USGA system does NOT need the total par from different sets of tees as Course Rating handles that. However, let's not digress into that.

>

> When you have a mixed tee competiton you could have 2 male players playing the same hole with one playing it as a Par 5 from back tees and another player it is a par 4 from tees farther up? With such wide ranges of Course Ratings there will apparently be many holes where players are playing the same hole as a diffrent par for that individual hole?

>

>

 

From what I know 'mixed tee competitions' is not the driving reason for the change. I believe that it is to make 'NDB adjustments' more accurate. For example a scratch golfer playing a par 72 course rated at 76 would certainly (in normal course of play over a number of rounds) shoot more hole scores higher than NDB than he/she would on a par 72 course rated at 65. The CR/Par adjustment reflects that difference.

 

dave

[HatsForBats]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

> > >

> >

> > As I have shown the current USGA system does NOT need the total par from different sets of tees as Course Rating handles that. However, let's not digress into that.

> >

> > When you have a mixed tee competiton you could have 2 male players playing the same hole with one playing it as a Par 5 from back tees and another player it is a par 4 from tees farther up? With such wide ranges of Course Ratings there will apparently be many holes where players are playing the same hole as a diffrent par for that individual hole?

> >

> >

>

> From what I know 'mixed tee competitions' is not the driving reason for the change. I believe that it is to make 'NDB adjustments' more accurate. For example a scratch golfer playing a par 72 course rated at 76 would certainly (in normal course of play over a number of rounds) shoot more hole scores higher than NDB than he/she would on a par 72 course rated at 65. The CR/Par adjustment reflects that difference.

>

> dave

 

Understood but my concern is more with the gross scores. Is the Par that is printed on the scorecard for each individual hole going to change? for sake of ease in the example below assume only the par 4's are changed. ex.

 

So let's say on December 31st 2019 me and my older buddy play the same course with me playing from the back tee's and he plays from the front tee's. On December 31st we are both playing it as a Par 72 with 4 par 3's, 10 par 4's and 4 par 5's. On January 1st we play the same course/tees but I am playing it as a Par 76 course with 4 par 3's, 8 par 5's, 6 par 4's? He is playing it as a par 65 course with 11 par 3's, 3 par 4's and 4 par 5's?

[DaveLeeNC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

> > > >

> > >

> > > As I have shown the current USGA system does NOT need the total par from different sets of tees as Course Rating handles that. However, let's not digress into that.

> > >

> > > When you have a mixed tee competiton you could have 2 male players playing the same hole with one playing it as a Par 5 from back tees and another player it is a par 4 from tees farther up? With such wide ranges of Course Ratings there will apparently be many holes where players are playing the same hole as a diffrent par for that individual hole?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > From what I know 'mixed tee competitions' is not the driving reason for the change. I believe that it is to make 'NDB adjustments' more accurate. For example a scratch golfer playing a par 72 course rated at 76 would certainly (in normal course of play over a number of rounds) shoot more hole scores higher than NDB than he/she would on a par 72 course rated at 65. The CR/Par adjustment reflects that difference.

> >

> > dave

>

> Understood but my concern is more with the gross scores. Is the Par that is printed on the scorecard for each individual hole going to change? for sake of ease in the example below assume only the par 4's are changed. ex.

>

> So let's say on December 31st 2019 me and my older buddy play the same course with me playing from the back tee's and he plays from the front tee's. On December 31st we are both playing it as a Par 72 with 4 par 3's, 10 par 4's and 4 par 5's. On January 1st we play the same course/tees but I am playing it as a Par 76 course with 4 par 3's, 8 par 5's, 6 par 4's? He is playing it as a par 65 course with 11 par 3's, 3 par 4's and 4 par 5's?

 

I am also wondering exactly how that is going to work. The email that I received indicated that there is still work being done on that one.

 

dave

[Augster]

On one of our holes moving from the white, a 500 par 5, to gold, a 374 yard “PAR 5” doesn’t make any sense.

 

When we play Chicago or stableford we manually adjust it to a par 4. It just is. But “officially” it’s a par 5. It makes no sense once you start playing games where par actually matters and NDB computation.

[HatsForBats]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > As I have shown the current USGA system does NOT need the total par from different sets of tees as Course Rating handles that. However, let's not digress into that.

> > > >

> > > > When you have a mixed tee competiton you could have 2 male players playing the same hole with one playing it as a Par 5 from back tees and another player it is a par 4 from tees farther up? With such wide ranges of Course Ratings there will apparently be many holes where players are playing the same hole as a diffrent par for that individual hole?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > From what I know 'mixed tee competitions' is not the driving reason for the change. I believe that it is to make 'NDB adjustments' more accurate. For example a scratch golfer playing a par 72 course rated at 76 would certainly (in normal course of play over a number of rounds) shoot more hole scores higher than NDB than he/she would on a par 72 course rated at 65. The CR/Par adjustment reflects that difference.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > Understood but my concern is more with the gross scores. Is the Par that is printed on the scorecard for each individual hole going to change? for sake of ease in the example below assume only the par 4's are changed. ex.

> >

> > So let's say on December 31st 2019 me and my older buddy play the same course with me playing from the back tee's and he plays from the front tee's. On December 31st we are both playing it as a Par 72 with 4 par 3's, 10 par 4's and 4 par 5's. On January 1st we play the same course/tees but I am playing it as a Par 76 course with 4 par 3's, 8 par 5's, 6 par 4's? He is playing it as a par 65 course with 11 par 3's, 3 par 4's and 4 par 5's?

>

> I am also wondering exactly how that is going to work. The email that I received indicated that there is still work being done on that one.

>

> dave

 

I just can't see them doing something so drastic and IMO detrimental to the enjoyment of so many golfers. I would think if they went that route then many players would abandon the new system but I could be wrong.

 

Perhaps they should pick another magic, static number to represent the 'average' course rating (ex. 70 or 70.3 for that matter). Maybe call it baseline and leave the individual hole pars alone. Then no matter what course/tee you play the calc is:

 

CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - **Baseline**)

 

Then again maybe they have come up with something that already takes care of all of this without drastically changing the individual hole pars. Which gets back to the original point of where is the info?

 

[DaveLeeNC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > In regions where the Course Rating - Par adjustment is being made in calculating Course Handicaps, the Pars from different sets of tees are needed in mixed tee competitions to calculate Playing Handicaps. Those playing from the tees with the higher par will receive additional strokes amounting to the difference between the Pars of the two sets of tees.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > As I have shown the current USGA system does NOT need the total par from different sets of tees as Course Rating handles that. However, let's not digress into that.

> > > > >

> > > > > When you have a mixed tee competiton you could have 2 male players playing the same hole with one playing it as a Par 5 from back tees and another player it is a par 4 from tees farther up? With such wide ranges of Course Ratings there will apparently be many holes where players are playing the same hole as a diffrent par for that individual hole?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > From what I know 'mixed tee competitions' is not the driving reason for the change. I believe that it is to make 'NDB adjustments' more accurate. For example a scratch golfer playing a par 72 course rated at 76 would certainly (in normal course of play over a number of rounds) shoot more hole scores higher than NDB than he/she would on a par 72 course rated at 65. The CR/Par adjustment reflects that difference.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > Understood but my concern is more with the gross scores. Is the Par that is printed on the scorecard for each individual hole going to change? for sake of ease in the example below assume only the par 4's are changed. ex.

> > >

> > > So let's say on December 31st 2019 me and my older buddy play the same course with me playing from the back tee's and he plays from the front tee's. On December 31st we are both playing it as a Par 72 with 4 par 3's, 10 par 4's and 4 par 5's. On January 1st we play the same course/tees but I am playing it as a Par 76 course with 4 par 3's, 8 par 5's, 6 par 4's? He is playing it as a par 65 course with 11 par 3's, 3 par 4's and 4 par 5's?

> >

> > I am also wondering exactly how that is going to work. The email that I received indicated that there is still work being done on that one.

> >

> > dave

>

> I just can't see them doing something so drastic and IMO detrimental to the enjoyment of so many golfers. I would think if they went that route then many players would abandon the new system but I could be wrong.

>

> Perhaps they should pick another magic, static number to represent the 'average' course rating (ex. 70 or 70.3 for that matter). Maybe call it baseline and leave the individual hole pars alone. Then no matter what course/tee you play the calc is:

>

> CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - **Baseline**)

>

> Then again maybe they have come up with something that already takes care of all of this without drastically changing the individual hole pars. Which gets back to the original point of where is the info?

>

 

Regarding the question of "where is the info", I think some details are being debated and will be available around 1/2020.

 

dave

[Colin L]

There will be the two options for the calculation of Course Handicaps at the discretion of each Authorised Association.

 

1. including an adjustment for the difference between course rating and par. The formula for this option is Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113) +(Course Rating - Par)

2. Not including and adjustment for the difference between course rating and par. The formula for this option is Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113)

 

CONGU has opted for 2 and so in a mixed tee medal competition, extra strokes are given to the players who are playing the tees with the higher course rating. They receive the difference between the two course ratings.

In mixed tee competitions in an Authorised Association which has opted for 1, the players who are playing from the tees with the higher par receive the difference between the pars of the two curses.

These extra strokes are solely for the purpose of deciding the winners of the competition and are discounted when the handicap calculations are made.

 

If you don't allocate these extra strokes, those playing the less demanding course have an unfair advantage over those playing the more difficult one.