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Why all the hate towards loft jacking?


golfinguru11

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I like my gel filled, "jacked" lofted irons.....keeps me at a 10 HC and I dont see myself playing a butter knife or a less forgiving head to get "traditional" lofts. Plus I like the bounce and sole of my irons, bending them weaker for the sake of it would only hurt my game.

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PING G425 7W 20.5° | DIAMANA GT 70X

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> @jholz said:

> I think there is one real legitimate reason to dislike (hate is way to strong of a work for this context) jacked iron lofts. The fact that it tends to screw up the bottom end of the bag. A 43* PW leaves a huge hole to fill.

>

> Everyone says "just get the set gap wedge" but **** if I do that, I'm just playing a set with traditional lofts that have different numbers on the bottom. Recognizing that, I'm forced to question the whole practice.

 

This.

 

I think jacking up the lofts is just a gimmick to help sell clubs to people who like the latest and greatest. Like mega pixels on your phone camera etc. Doesn't matter how far or how much extra detail your going to capture (in the camera example). All that matters is are they doing the job you need them to do. If all your clubs now hit 10 yards further then your going to need an extra club at the bottom to fill the gap that has been created. I get the annoyance against this.

 

What I don't get is the anti gel filled / new technology issues. I thought most of the new club head designs weren't about being about to hit it further out the screws but to be able hit it further around the edges this making your miss hits closer to your perfect strikes. But there seems to be talk that the newer designs actually increase distance variance across the face and not reduce it.

 

I feel like the op wants a more traditional head with additional offset and bounce which isn't readily available and not all the new tech that reduces the ability to work the ball and helps just hit it high and straight. And that the jacked loft and club style / technology discussions are 2 seperate issues that are getting blurred.

 

That being said I've probably learned more about club fitting from Howard's posts on this forum than any other source of information

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T100 vs T200 irons.

 

nearly every iron in the T200 is the same iron minus 1 in the T100. The 6 is the 5, the 8 is the 7. ... the only difference is the P in t200 is a degree weak from 9 in T100 and the W in T200 is two dgrees weak from pw in T100.

 

yet for some reason this bothers me. i realize i could just buy the 5-W where the w is a strong gap, but i won't.

 

 

Ping G400 LST 10 w/ Hzrdus Black 6.0 75g
TM M2 3HL w/ Rogue Black 70 S
Cobra F8 19*
J15CB w/ Modus 120X 4-P
Cleveland RTX3 CB 50 54 58
TM Spider Tour Black w/ T-sightline 36" 

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> scroll up to whats already written, its no reason to write it again

 

Scrolling up doesn't address my point. You are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to club building etc. so I assume you are an intelligent man. If the angst against strong lofts really boils down to marketing then I find that both silly and juvenile. Do I think the new Tide pods will make my clothes twice as clean as last years product, do I believe the 2020 Ford Explorer is ground breaking technology versus the 2019 model, do I think if I take Viagra I will get taller, slimmer, my hair will grow back and I will be surrounded by hot babes looking for action? C'mon guys - multi-million dollar corporations are in it to make money - hiring smart marketing people is one way to sell more product. I know the 7 iron I hit 150 yards today is the same loft as my 5 iron I hit 40 years ago - I've always hit my 7 iron 150 yards even though I know I swing slower now than in my younger days. And Howard don't tell me todays drivers aren't better than drivers of our youth - I'm an old guy too - I hit my 45" 460cc driver way straighter and just as far as my old 43 1/2" Powerbilt Citation 40 years ago.

People on WRX know more about golf equipment than 99% of the general golfing population - we know the hype, lets give this topic a rest. Things change - the number on the bottom of the club has changed - that is all.

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If it's essentially the same, why change the numbers at all?

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Arias D-23, Modus3 120 S; Mizuno MP-20 HMB, NS Pro 950 R

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S; testing: Arias D-23 5i w/Modus 120 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34" -or- Rife Bimini, 34" -or- Maxfli TM-2, 35"
Balls: Chrome Soft, Kirkland Signature 3pc (v3), Wilson Triad

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> @oiler45 said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > scroll up to whats already written, its no reason to write it again

>

> Scrolling up doesn't address my point. You are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to club building etc. so I assume you are an intelligent man. If the angst against strong lofts really boils down to marketing then I find that both silly and juvenile. Do I think the new Tide pods will make my clothes twice as clean as last years product, do I believe the 2020 Ford Explorer is ground breaking technology versus the 2019 model, do I think if I take Viagra I will get taller, slimmer, my hair will grow back and I will be surrounded by hot babes looking for action? C'mon guys - multi-million dollar corporations are in it to make money - hiring smart marketing people is one way to sell more product. I know the 7 iron I hit 150 yards today is the same loft as my 5 iron I hit 40 years ago - I've always hit my 7 iron 150 yards even though I know I swing slower now than in my younger days. And Howard don't tell me todays drivers aren't better than drivers of our youth - I'm an old guy too - I hit my 45" 460cc driver way straighter and just as far as my old 43 1/2" Powerbilt Citation 40 years ago.

> People on WRX know more about golf equipment than 99% of the general golfing population - we know the hype, lets give this topic a rest. Things change - the number on the bottom of the club has changed - that is all.

 

Last post from me on this:

Strong lofted High Cor face irons has bad dispersion, Distance vary to much depending on how good impact you make

Stronger lofts = less spin and stopping power - Irons is precision, NOT distance

A PW thats only 43* makes a need for too many wedges.

The shortest iron shaft is often #9, some has PW, so we end up with a set where way to many clubs is using the same shaft, we area approaching the "Single length" world, and if thats fine, then take it all the way

 

If we wanted to make it easier on our self, its a way better idea to build a 3/8" set. Then we get shorter clubs/ shaft length vs Loft, but not all the way but with a progression that keeps us standing in the short end of the set instead of hanging over the ball.

 

Sure driver heads has improved, and we dont have to stretch it 40 years back to compare, todays heads is better than 5-10 years ago, but for drivers they have gone way to long on shaft length so for the majority of Golfers a modification is needed. Its for very good reasons Cobra is using 44.50" as their "Tour standard", so when the regular Golfer buys something thats longer, he really dont understand hos own best.

 

I have nothing against making the game easier on our self, but this is NOT the way to do it. Im both old and a slow swinger, so im a short hitter, but ive solved that by using Hybrids in the long end who has way better launch , forgiveness and stopping power compared to strong lofted High COR irons.

 

MY own bag look like this

i have replaced both my #5 and #4 iron with hybrids to get launch and stop like irons should have, so my irons is only 6-PW with a PW of 47.5* then a 53*GW and 59* SW/LW so i have room 3W/15* - 5W/19* and 7W/23* to get the transport strokes covered.

 

If you are happy to play strong lofted high cor irons and drivers with shafts that way to long, i could not care less, MY game is not influenced at all by it, but if you want to make a good score, reconsider what you choose to bring out on the course. In the ends its only one valid rule for equipment, "What ever works", but i have yet to see that strong lofted High COR irons work as irons should, and thats means good dispersion on gaps, and good stopping power to approach a green.

 

IMO, stopping power should not be less than this:

PW full stop (no roll out on full shots)

9 iron - max 2 meters

8 iron - max 4 meters

7 iron - max 6 meters

6 iron - max 8 meters

5 iron - max 10 meters

4 iron - max 12 meters

3 iron - max 14 meters

 

If you are happy with more than this, fine, but its not beneficial for your score.

  • Like 1

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It really is just a matter of the number on the sole being different. A typical mid-90's 5 iron was 37.5" and 28* which is pretty much today's 6 iron. One think I don't like is that if I stick with DGS300 I'm effectively playing the shaft hard-stepped when playing modern clubs as the 6 iron shaft is still used in the '6' iron but it's built to 5 iron lengths and head weight.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @oiler45 said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > scroll up to whats already written, its no reason to write it again

> >

> > Scrolling up doesn't address my point. You are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to club building etc. so I assume you are an intelligent man. If the angst against strong lofts really boils down to marketing then I find that both silly and juvenile. Do I think the new Tide pods will make my clothes twice as clean as last years product, do I believe the 2020 Ford Explorer is ground breaking technology versus the 2019 model, do I think if I take Viagra I will get taller, slimmer, my hair will grow back and I will be surrounded by hot babes looking for action? C'mon guys - multi-million dollar corporations are in it to make money - hiring smart marketing people is one way to sell more product. I know the 7 iron I hit 150 yards today is the same loft as my 5 iron I hit 40 years ago - I've always hit my 7 iron 150 yards even though I know I swing slower now than in my younger days. And Howard don't tell me todays drivers aren't better than drivers of our youth - I'm an old guy too - I hit my 45" 460cc driver way straighter and just as far as my old 43 1/2" Powerbilt Citation 40 years ago.

> > People on WRX know more about golf equipment than 99% of the general golfing population - we know the hype, lets give this topic a rest. Things change - the number on the bottom of the club has changed - that is all.

>

> Last post from me on this:

> Strong lofted High Cor face irons has bad dispersion, Distance vary to much depending on how good impact you make

> Stronger lofts = less spin and stopping power - Irons is precision, NOT distance

> A PW thats only 43* makes a need for too many wedges.

> The shortest iron shaft is often #9, some has PW, so we end up with a set where way to many clubs is using the same shaft, we area approaching the "Single length" world, and if thats fine, then take it all the way

>

> If we wanted to make it easier on our self, its a way better idea to build a 3/8" set. Then we get shorter clubs/ shaft length vs Loft, but not all the way but with a progression that keeps us standing in the short end of the set instead of hanging over the ball.

>

> Sure driver heads has improved, and we dont have to stretch it 40 years back to compare, todays heads is better than 5-10 years ago, but for drivers they have gone way to long on shaft length so for the majority of Golfers a modification is needed. Its for very good reasons Cobra is using 44.50" as their "Tour standard", so when the regular Golfer buys something thats longer, he really dont understand hos own best.

>

> I have nothing against making the game easier on our self, but this is NOT the way to do it. Im both old and a slow swinger, so im a short hitter, but ive solved that by using Hybrids in the long end who has way better launch , forgiveness and stopping power compared to strong lofted High COR irons.

>

> MY own bag look like this

> i have replaced both my #5 and #4 iron with hybrids to get launch and stop like irons should have, so my irons is only 6-PW with a PW of 47.5* then a 53*GW and 59* SW/LW so i have room 3W/15* - 5W/19* and 7W/23* to get the transport strokes covered.

>

> If you are happy to play strong lofted high cor irons and drivers with shafts that way to long, i could not care less, MY game is not influenced at all by it, but if you want to make a good score, reconsider what you choose to bring out on the course. In the ends its only one valid rule for equipment, "What ever works", but i have yet to see that strong lofted High COR irons work as irons should, and thats means good dispersion on gaps, and good stopping power to approach a green.

>

> IMO, stopping power should not be less than this:

> PW full stop (no roll out on full shots)

> 9 iron - max 2 meters

> 8 iron - max 4 meters

> 7 iron - max 6 meters

> 6 iron - max 8 meters

> 5 iron - max 10 meters

> 4 iron - max 12 meters

> 3 iron - max 14 meters

>

> If you are happy with more than this, fine, but its not beneficial for your score.

 

 

Howard - last post from me as well.

High COR and strong lofts are two separate issues. If you do not like modern irons with hot faces - fine - but that is a different argument than strong lofts.

Stronger lofts = less spin - sure but if all lofts are the same just with a different number - everything is equal.

My bag is almost identical to yours (similar lofts but a different number on the bottom of the club) - like you I'm older and swing slower than the young dudes.

My handicap is lower than it has ever been - I do have proper lofts and yardages to match.

 

If you are happy with your bag - great - so am I.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @golfinguru11 said:

> > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

> > > >

> > > > Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?

> > > > Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.

> > > > The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

> > > >

> > > > PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

> > >

> > > Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

> >

> >

> > I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

> >

>

> If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.

> Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

 

false. I was referring to bending “jacked lofted” clubs weak in order to increase bounce and decrease offset. I’m not sure how I could’ve been more clear.

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> @golfinguru11 said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @golfinguru11 said:

> > > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

> > > > >

> > > > > Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?

> > > > > Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.

> > > > > The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

> > > > >

> > > > > PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

> > > >

> > > > Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

> > >

> > >

> > > I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

> > >

> >

> > If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.

> > Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

>

> false. I was referring to bending “jacked lofted” clubs weak in order to increase bounce and decrease offset. I’m not sure how I could’ve been more clear.

 

Again, JACKED lofts is the term used for strong lofted irons. When we bend a iron for spin, ball flight or gaps, its called BENDING, not Jacking, so the misunderstanding is all yours. Read your own header again, and do a Google search for "Mitchel Jacking Machine"....at least i gave me a big fat smile :-)

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @golfinguru11 said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > @golfinguru11 said:

> > > > > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > > > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > > Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?

> > > > > > Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.

> > > > > > The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

> > > >

> > >

> > > If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.

> > > Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

> >

> > false. I was referring to bending “jacked lofted” clubs weak in order to increase bounce and decrease offset. I’m not sure how I could’ve been more clear.

>

> Again, JACKED lofts is the term used for strong lofted irons. When we bend a iron for spin, ball flight or gaps, its called BENDING, not Jacking, so the misunderstanding is all yours. Read your own header again, and do a Google search for "Mitchel Jacking Machine"....at least i gave me a big fat smile :-)

 

Seems like you just misinterpreted the title. He uses the term "loft jacking" as the standard spec of a strong lofted set. He likes this as he then bends them to increase loft/spin and decrease offset as he likes the increase in bounce. I do the same thing with my Apex irons and I have had zero issues with distance control and gapping dispersion.

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Whatever works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @WristySwing said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > @WristySwing said:

> > > > > @Hertsjoatmon said:

> > > > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?

> > > > > > Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.

> > > > > > The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

> > > > >

> > > > > I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

> > > > >

> > > > > In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

> > >

> > > How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

> > >

> > > 2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

> > >

> > > And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

>

> you DID NOT say anything of what you type now, i quoted it, and now ive been reading it again, so please cut the crap. Here is what you posted, and what i replied to.

> 6cghgc3np5lo.png

>

> The word significant makes no sense here, we measure distance in yards or meters and use a number to express it, not a opinion.

>

> There is a tread about a player who got to large gaps from his 48* to his 56* and the advice was to add a 52* GW.

> That means 4* on gaps, and his carry gaps now look like this, and ive added a row for change in carry if loft was 2* as difference, and we get a little more than 6 yards, your wrote " I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*"......., and you claim you have been a club fitter for 20 years? No wonder the reputation of club fitters is like it is, if this is representative for the average knowledge level.

>

>

> 20jebgwqymyh.png

>

 

I've just had a chance to go through and read this as I was away for a couple of days. To address a couple of points (and I will try not to talk down to you as you have talked down to everyone in this threa that has posted an opinion or experience contrary to your opinion or experience):

 

1) In my experience fitting, I have absolutely seen better dispersion and accuracy with modern drivers when they are correctly fit for that player. You cannot tell me that a 10* Si3 driver hits the ball straighter and more accurately than a G400 Max. There is an army of members on here that will agree with me on this. I will agree with you that standard playing length for clubs are too long for most people, but that is what fitting is, finding what is correct FOR THAT PLAYER. I don't give a flying crap what the stock length of a driver is. My only concern for the person standing in front of me and what is right for them.

 

2) You keep pulling out comparisons to sandwedges when in my post I was talking about the difference between a 46* P and 44* P. I literally say in my post that if someone has a 44* PW the chances of them hitting it significantly further (let me define that now as 1 full club in carry, so between 8-12 yards depending on the player) is just not going to happen. I'm sorry, but I don't understand how what I typed originally and me clarifying what I had written is any way different yet you believe it to be, I can't explain what I meant any simpler. You can pull out all the Excel spreadsheets you want and call me a fraud and unintelligent all you want. In my experience, using GC2 and GCQuad and fitting off of 6i and PW, the distance "boost" we see in the irons, whether perceived or not, diminishes incrementally. Now, whether that is due to the larger gaps in the shorter irons, being 5* instead of 4*, perhaps, but it could also just be the physics behind the design of the heads. It's been illustrated that "lower spin" shots often apex higher and come in steeper than do "higher spin" shots (quotes used as these values differ on a person to person basis based on their delivery). This is used as an argument that the lower spin shots somehow careen wildly in each direction and bound uncontrollably over the green the second they touch grass. This ISN'T TRUE unless you play on absolutely baked out greens, hit the ball way lower than you should, and with spin that is FAR too low.

 

As an example I plugged in data from the Flightscope Trajectory Optimizer for an "average" 6i speed I see most days. Plug it in using these metrics and you can see for yourself. Ball/Launch speed = 115mph, launch angle 17*, altitude = 0ft, Spin = 5000 RPMs, surface = soft. The carry was 163.1 yards and total was 163.9 yards, so 0.8 of a yard of run, what's that, like 2.75 feet? Hardly bounding through a green when it is one hop and stopping. If we change the parameters to match a "Jacked" iron (air-quotes on jacked), we would see roughly a 5% reduction in spin and a an increase likely of about 1.5-2* of launch, combined with probably 5mph more ball speed due to the stronger lofts. I know the formula is 300RPMs per degree of loft for drivers but nobody has ever provided a convincing comparison for what it is for irons, and I personally haven't seen anything more than a 5% drop in spin from going from say a P760 at 29* of loft to a P790 at 26* of loft. This gives us a carry of 173.5 for a total of 174.2, again, less than a yard of run out (<3 feet). Let's re-run the test using the "hard" turf, which we get for each spin rate:

 

Low Spin condition: 173.5 carry for 183 total

Average Spin condition: 163.1 carry for 173.2 total

 

Now if we do a high spin condition with the accompanying lower launch and drop in ball speed we see due to the weaker lofts (but only 3.5mph vs. 5 as 29-31 is not as extreme as 26-29) we get these numbers:

 

Hard turf: 152 carry and 160.6 total.

 

To get even close to one hopping and stopping on hard turf we need the following launch metrics:

 

24* launch, 111.5mph ball speed, 10,000RPMs of spin. I fail to see how ANY iron is going to get to that level on a hard surface in a bubble environment such as this testing. Obviously real-world results are different but I hope you see my point. It doesn't seem to really change the impact of green-stopping power much whether it spins "properly" (iron x 1000) or lower than ideal ("jacked" loft scenario) on soft green surfaces or medium green surfaces, which most amateurs (halfway elite or otherwise) are going to be playing on anyways.

 

As for the distance and lateral dispersion argument you've made about SGI, hot faced irons being crap compared to traditional irons, I will just say let's agree to disagree. That's a different thread but I would challenge anyone here that is a 5 handicap and above to go to a range where they can rent a launch monitor for an hour and hit fifty balls with say a Ping G700 and then say 50 balls with the Ping Blueprint, not concerned about distance or shot shape, or deleting "poor" strikes/bad swings and see which one is more consistently straight. My money isn't on the Blueprint that's for sure.

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Cleveland RTX 6 Zipcore 54* Mid and 58* Low+ - DG Tour Issue Spinner

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That was quite a lot to reply to.....

 

1)..i did not mention a single head name or model, (i could have thrown in SLDR, but its so extreme its outside any norm) so i mentioned play length, and we seems to be online with that a fitting for the actual player is needed.

 

2) i will have to quote your own words again : "I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*."

Now you have defined "significant" to be 8-12 yards or a full club, but seriously, normal loft gaps between clubs is 4* so how could anyone expect a full club as difference from only 2* as loft difference.?

the expected is just like the difference to loft, "half a club" or 5-6 yards and thats what we get, not 3 or 8-12

 

Words like "fraud" or "not intelligent" does not come from me. The club fitting business reputation is BAD, and you reinforced that with your "I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*." and it did not make it look much better when "significant" or expectations from a loft difference of only 2* becomes one full club. Nobody expect that.

 

Different model heads behave different yes, but lower spin, dont give a higher apex and steeper descent. A reduction of 143 Rpms is 1* lower on Descent.(1000 rpms is 7* on descent), and 1000 Rpms is quite normal for 4 degrees of loft, so for short, clubs that has loft thats 4* stronger than classic, has a expected descent thats 7* lower, and thats why its hard to get above 45* for approach.

 

Since there aint no standard for loft, neither for whats "jacked lofts" it really hard to put numbers on any of this, but typical this clubs is "1 iron stronger", some even more, and based on that, i have a hard time to follow you on your 5% difference to spin. 1000/6230 = 16% (PGA #6 iron) or 1000/4800 = 20.8% (LPGA #4 iron) Your statement "If we change the parameters to match a "Jacked" iron (air-quotes on jacked), we would see roughly a 5% reduction in spin"...again, IF the "jacked loft club is 1 iron stronger on lofts, spin reduction would be way more than 5%. who is only 250 rpms of 5000 or the average pr degree of loft.

 

Lets agree that we dont agree, but dont claim to have written something else than you do when your are quoted at what you typed, or that you have been called "fraud" or "not intelligent" when neither is true.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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People want something to talk about. If your irons perform the way you want them to, it really shouldn't matter if they are strong or weak. Golf evolves over time, and some numbers will change here and there, but what doesn't change is the average golfer; the one who buys the most equipment. I have played the some irons (MP-69) since release and carry the 7 iron to 165 yards. I was demoing the TM 790's and was pushing their 7 iron to 195. Neither of those numbers matter because it is all player dependent. A lot of guys want high distance numbers because they can relate somehow to the guys who are paid.

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I hit my 56° sand wedge 95 yards and my 20° driving iron 220 yards. I want my iron set to fill up the space in between at 13 yard intervals and I only need a quick glimpse at the specs of modern SGIs to know that they wont cut it.

Stretched out gaps in the short end means 20 yards between the wedges, bunched up lofts in the long end means 5 yards or less between the long irons. Who in the world will benefit from that?

Hey chopper, what are you hitting there?
Callaway Rouge Sub Zero 9°
TM SLDR S 17° 4-wood
Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 21° driving iron

Dynacraft (?) 24° 4-iron
Titleist AP2 710 5-pw
Wilson FG Tour PMP 52, 56, 60­°
Rife 460 Tour Blade

After how long does being "out of form" turn into "a bad golfer"?

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Lofts are jacked so that the players likely to use them, who are less likely to be hitting down properly on the ball, can deliver a 7 iron with the same loft that a "better player" delivers his blades. I hear all this about length but a 22 handicapper doesn't hit a Callaway Rogue further than a 4 handicapper hits his X Forged. I know people never talk about this but its simple really.

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I won't bend strong, don't need the distance help, but it's NO big deal.

 

As an amateur chasing distance, you take the good (hitting it further) with the bad (problematic distance control on pure strikes.) Touring pros do it all the time. They are good but hitting 3 or 4i 250+ yards is the result of stronger lofted long irons. Kenny Perry carries a 3i bent to 17*. He doesn't mind the issues that come with a strong bend.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

>

> PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

 

^^^^^^^^THIS 100%^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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