Any new TM drivers in the works?

[BirdieBirdieX]

> @"TaylorMade Golf" said:

> Tiger seems to like the M5, shall we just run with that for another season? ;) Or do you wanna see what we got next?

 

It's going to take a miracle for any OEM to replace the TS3 w/ HZRDUS HC Black in my bag. It's the best combo of hot and forgiving I've ever come across. The TM offerings are hot when hit on the button but they're brutally unforgiving

[rwhitlock]

The top crown has been getting a smaller and smaller painted section.. was white originally then to gray.. wonder if they're going to change the color scheme again or drop it all together and go to a more sold head (like the Ping 410)? I do like the sound of the current M5/M6 clubs :)

[RodrigoNicely]

> @driveandputtmachine said:

> > @noodle3872 said:

> > > @GoGoErky said:

> > > > @noodle3872 said:

> > > > > @mrmikeac said:

> > > > > > @TheMoneyShot said:

> > > > > > > @wheelz said:

> > > > > > > Stock shafts I know for sure are Ventus Blue & Red (based on this Black should be $0 upcharge), HZRDUS Smoke, & a Diamana shaft assuming 4th gen series.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Watered down Ventus shaft?

> > > > >

> > > > > Highly doubt Ventus will be stock. Either a watered down or possibly no upcharge. No upcharge just screams back ordered

> > > >

> > > > There’s no way a $350 shaft is a stock offering. A Tensei Pro shaft is a $250 upcharge via TM and is $360.

> > >

> > > When companies buy shafts in bulk that price is a lot less and can be offered at the no upcharge price.

> >

> > So how many $350 shafts does a company have to buy to bring the cost per shaft down to roughly $100 without lowering the material content quality?

> >

> > Sorry, its just not feasible IMHO.

>

> So the Ventus sells for 350 on golfworks and other places. So golfworks is making money on it, and is probably required to have a Minimum sales price. I am guessing Golfworks is not making 20 bucks per shaft they sell, for giggles lets say Golfworks pays 200 for the shaft. I am sure they sell a few shafts, but the volume is pretty low. Fitters and others can order factory/manufacturer direct and probably pay about the same price. TM in a stock offering is ordering a lot more. Not just golfworks orders 1,000 and TM orders 5,000. Probably in the neighborhood of GW orders 1,000 and TM orders 200,000 type of discrepancy. Even in an upcharge shaft variable TM orders way more than Golfworks.

>

> When you are a manufacturer you have a few "main" costs to recoup. R&D, materials, machines to make product. Sure marketing and a few others are in there, but their marketing budget is way below that of TM or Callaway. Just like anyone else, the more time your machine is running the closer you are to paying it off/having money to order a new better/faster machine. Therefore someone ordering in that type of discrepancy is going to pay way less than half what the other guy is paying. The actual cost for materials for the shaft itself is probably in the neighborhood of 5 bucks, the R&D and machine to make it where most of your costs are sunk for a product.

>

> So then the question for TM becomes.....do I want to sell in bulk or for a high price? Um, they want both. So the drivers continue to inch up in costs, 499.99 drivers now. Heads being made in china, at a small price(R&D needs to be recouped as does marketing and a few other items. So the average M5 costs TM (with a Ventus shaft) roughly 250.00(purely a guess). They have concluded through previous releases and market research that using a shaft with X name on it increases volume by X. Using an actual real deal shaft with X name on it costs X+X. Will people like the WRX community not buy enough of them if we know they are watered down, to offset the increase from average Joe golfer Y? I don't know, but I guarantee that TM knows.

>

> I guess the long story here is, sure TM can offer a real deal Ventus for the 499.99 price and still make a pile of money. Does the research show they will be more liquid now with watered down shaft vs. real deal, and does watered down possibly hurt their market shares going forward? Those are the questions TM is worried about. The brand for future and the long game. Not only does TM have to think about this release and making money, they have to be sure this release doesn't hurt their market share for future releases.

 

Except for the fact that your margins are all off. A lot higher mark up in shafts than you know. Good works and these other shaft companies make a ton on raw shafts. Also the cost to make the shaft is minimum to what they would charge Taylormade to buy say 100,000 of them

[Jacked_Loft]

Another thing you have to consider is that it costs a manufacturer almost the same, if not more to make a "watered down" shaft as a normal one.

 

The term "Made For" means that a certain shafts profile has been tuned to work better with a certain head in an OEM's lineup. The adjusted profile still has to be designed, engineered and produced in a separate run from the original which adds to production costs.

 

So a Made For shaft could really be more expensive for an OEM than using the original shaft. I think the reason people find this negative, is that people who've played the Made For shaft (and liked it) suddenly find the after market shaft different or vice versa.

 

And just another point to ponder:

 

If a driver heads performance is reined in by the rules, the best way to sell YOUR sticks is by offering it with a proper shaft, with little or no upcharge.

 

Like getting air conditioning in your new car for free.

[agood3putt]

 

 

What is the color scheme going to be? Carbon crowns too?

[EHolm]

> @AG12 said:

 

>

> What is the color scheme going to be? Carbon crowns too?

 

No pics or anything like that I'm afraid

 

[ignitewvu]

> @jabwind51 said:

> > @Hughlock said:

> > I also heard no more M series and the heads will be Blue now.

>

> Meh. Dunno how they will improve on the current carbon scheme that looks amazing but I also said that about the M4 colors too hah..when I think blue I think of the old Mizzy royal blue which I did not like...

>

 

I'm guessing Carbon is gone......

[tleader]

Offering real deal Ventus is huge, if this is accurate. Would sway me to get refit and potentially avoid a $330 up charge (CDN) from Cobra. Assuming I get better or equivalent numbers.

[EHolm]

> @tleader said:

> Offering real deal Ventus is huge, if this is accurate. Would sway me to get refit and potentially avoid a $330 up charge (CDN) from Cobra. Assuming I get better or equivalent numbers.

 

Sure would be, especially with all the hype around it. Hoping they dont do a Cally T-800 Hzrdus on it though

[BCC1898]

 

Solid info! I wonder where someone got the idea that we’d be getting Speedline drivers and V Steel fairway woods???

 

[DFS PFD]

They could run Ventus as the stock offering, Callaway just did the Pro orange in the super hybrid. But you see it in the price tag, I'd expect one line of drivers to offer ventus (maybe TP) at $650 US MSRP.

[GoGoErky]

 

 

That would be a change for them and I doubt they would do that. Other than p series they haven’t done every other year releases. I look at the naming of using the ping g series approach of having a single lineup with multiple heads

[knudson81]

Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

[QuigleyDU]

> @"DFS PFD" said:

> They could run Ventus as the stock offering, Callaway just did the Pro orange in the super hybrid. But you see it in the price tag, I'd expect one line of drivers to offer ventus (maybe TP) at $650 US MSRP.

 

The ventus is too good and too new to be a stock offering just yet.

[GoGoErky]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > They could run Ventus as the stock offering, Callaway just did the Pro orange in the super hybrid. But you see it in the price tag, I'd expect one line of drivers to offer ventus (maybe TP) at $650 US MSRP.

>

> The ventus is too good and too new to be a stock offering just yet.

 

Even flow were offered as stock when they were pretty new. Titleist had them same year they released

[Trying4Better]

> @knudson81 said:

> Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

 

That would be mine, and I would love to know why? I simply asked a question, and have no insider knowledge nor contacts at the OEM. In fact, I have no contacts with reps or anything. I get all of my information here. Although, if an OEM can ask for my comment to be removed on a public forum, it makes me wonder why I would want to patronize the forum that allows this. I certainly am not trolling, nor asking for anything other than an explanation.

 

 

To be clear, they did post a teaser comment that led to my question.

[QuigleyDU]

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > They could run Ventus as the stock offering, Callaway just did the Pro orange in the super hybrid. But you see it in the price tag, I'd expect one line of drivers to offer ventus (maybe TP) at $650 US MSRP.

> >

> > The ventus is too good and too new to be a stock offering just yet.

>

> Even flow were offered as stock when they were pretty new. Titleist had them same year they released

 

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @"DFS PFD" said:

> > > They could run Ventus as the stock offering, Callaway just did the Pro orange in the super hybrid. But you see it in the price tag, I'd expect one line of drivers to offer ventus (maybe TP) at $650 US MSRP.

> >

> > The ventus is too good and too new to be a stock offering just yet.

>

> Even flow were offered as stock when they were pretty new. Titleist had them same year they released

 

Yes, but the evenflow is not even on the same planet as the Ventus. IMO.

[GoGoErky]

> @Trying4Better said:

> > @knudson81 said:

> > Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

>

> That would be mine, and I would love to know why? I simply asked a question, and have no insider knowledge nor contacts at the OEM. In fact, I have no contacts with reps or anything. I get all of my information here. Although, if an OEM can ask for my comment to be removed on a public forum, it makes me wonder why I would want to patronize the forum that allows this. I certainly am not trolling, nor asking for anything other than an explanation.

>

>

> To be clear, they did post a teaser comment that led to my question.

 

Embargo is usually the reason. While the manufacturer posted a teaser the info related to that such as names and other details aren’t released for public knowledge. Other brands have done the same the last few months with pictures including yesterday or day before with Callaway irons

[BCC1898]

Holy moly. Now we can’t DISCUSS what we hear in regards to yet to be released equipment??? What’s the point of this place then???

[Trying4Better]

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @Trying4Better said:

> > > @knudson81 said:

> > > Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

> >

> > That would be mine, and I would love to know why? I simply asked a question, and have no insider knowledge nor contacts at the OEM. In fact, I have no contacts with reps or anything. I get all of my information here. Although, if an OEM can ask for my comment to be removed on a public forum, it makes me wonder why I would want to patronize the forum that allows this. I certainly am not trolling, nor asking for anything other than an explanation.

> >

> >

> > To be clear, they did post a teaser comment that led to my question.

>

> Embargo is usually the reason. While the manufacturer posted a teaser the info related to that such as names and other details aren’t released for public knowledge. Other brands have done the same the last few months with pictures including yesterday or day before with Callaway irons

 

Absolutely understand. However, I was not saying anything other than asking a speculative question based on the comment they made. Embargo or not, how does that make sense?

[TheMoneyShot]

> @Trying4Better said:

> > @GoGoErky said:

> > > @Trying4Better said:

> > > > @knudson81 said:

> > > > Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

> > >

> > > That would be mine, and I would love to know why? I simply asked a question, and have no insider knowledge nor contacts at the OEM. In fact, I have no contacts with reps or anything. I get all of my information here. Although, if an OEM can ask for my comment to be removed on a public forum, it makes me wonder why I would want to patronize the forum that allows this. I certainly am not trolling, nor asking for anything other than an explanation.

> > >

> > >

> > > To be clear, they did post a teaser comment that led to my question.

> >

> > Embargo is usually the reason. While the manufacturer posted a teaser the info related to that such as names and other details aren’t released for public knowledge. Other brands have done the same the last few months with pictures including yesterday or day before with Callaway irons

>

> Absolutely understand. However, I was not saying anything other than asking a speculative question based on the comment they made. Embargo or not, how does that make sense?

 

I must have missed some juicy info, dang it...

[Oaks]

Speaking on Made For Shafts:

 

Isn’t Made For Shafts what got MATRIX into a boatload of problems and ultimately led to their demise?

[GoGoErky]

> @Trying4Better said:

> > @GoGoErky said:

> > > @Trying4Better said:

> > > > @knudson81 said:

> > > > Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

> > >

> > > That would be mine, and I would love to know why? I simply asked a question, and have no insider knowledge nor contacts at the OEM. In fact, I have no contacts with reps or anything. I get all of my information here. Although, if an OEM can ask for my comment to be removed on a public forum, it makes me wonder why I would want to patronize the forum that allows this. I certainly am not trolling, nor asking for anything other than an explanation.

> > >

> > >

> > > To be clear, they did post a teaser comment that led to my question.

> >

> > Embargo is usually the reason. While the manufacturer posted a teaser the info related to that such as names and other details aren’t released for public knowledge. Other brands have done the same the last few months with pictures including yesterday or day before with Callaway irons

>

> Absolutely understand. However, I was not saying anything other than asking a speculative question based on the comment they made. Embargo or not, how does that make sense?

 

A brand has an embargo. Information leaked that shouldn’t have and the brand asked a publication to remove the information, said publication who has and wants to maintain a relationship with the brand honors the request, so any all references to said information is edited or removed. Not sure what hard to grasp that a brand is trying to protect its proprietary information and a media outlet assists them in doing so.

[QuigleyDU]

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @Trying4Better said:

> > > @GoGoErky said:

> > > > @Trying4Better said:

> > > > > @knudson81 said:

> > > > > Certain posts have been removed or edited from this thread at the request of the copyright holder.

> > > >

> > > > That would be mine, and I would love to know why? I simply asked a question, and have no insider knowledge nor contacts at the OEM. In fact, I have no contacts with reps or anything. I get all of my information here. Although, if an OEM can ask for my comment to be removed on a public forum, it makes me wonder why I would want to patronize the forum that allows this. I certainly am not trolling, nor asking for anything other than an explanation.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > To be clear, they did post a teaser comment that led to my question.

> > >

> > > Embargo is usually the reason. While the manufacturer posted a teaser the info related to that such as names and other details aren’t released for public knowledge. Other brands have done the same the last few months with pictures including yesterday or day before with Callaway irons

> >

> > Absolutely understand. However, I was not saying anything other than asking a speculative question based on the comment they made. Embargo or not, how does that make sense?

>

> A brand has an embargo. Information leaked that shouldn’t have and the brand asked a publication to remove the information, said publication who has and wants to maintain a relationship with the brand honors the request, so any all references to said information is edited or removed. Not sure what hard to grasp that a brand is trying to protect its proprietary information and a media outlet assists them in doing so.

 

So true. This site exists largely because it gets to look behind the curtain and drum up excitement. If they pull back the curtain completely, companies will stop letting them look, and soon the site will be gone.

[Bebsport678]

Now I’m curious on to what was said ?

[Valtiel]

> @Jacked_Loft said:

> Another thing you have to consider is that it costs a manufacturer almost the same, if not more to make a "watered down" shaft as a normal one.

>

> The term "Made For" means that a certain shafts profile has been tuned to work better with a certain head in an OEM's lineup. The adjusted profile still has to be designed, engineered and produced in a separate run from the original which adds to production costs.

>

> So a Made For shaft could really be more expensive for an OEM than using the original shaft. I think the reason people find this negative, is that people who've played the Made For shaft (and liked it) suddenly find the after market shaft different or vice versa.

>

> And just another point to ponder:

>

> If a driver heads performance is reined in by the rules, the best way to sell YOUR sticks is by offering it with a proper shaft, with little or no upcharge.

>

> Like getting air conditioning in your new car for free.

 

I disagree with the "shaft has to be tuned" part. I HIHGLY doubt that any such thing is happening and there is no way that the shaft would be more expensive for the OEM as it would completely defeat the purpose. "Made for" shafts are produced overseas with cheaper materials to meet a price point, bottom line.

[GC70]

> @Rig14Port said:

> > @driveandputtmachine said:

> > > @noodle3872 said:

> > > > @GoGoErky said:

> > > > > @noodle3872 said:

> > > > > > @mrmikeac said:

> > > > > > > @TheMoneyShot said:

> > > > > > > > @wheelz said:

> > > > > > > > Stock shafts I know for sure are Ventus Blue & Red (based on this Black should be $0 upcharge), HZRDUS Smoke, & a Diamana shaft assuming 4th gen series.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Watered down Ventus shaft?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Highly doubt Ventus will be stock. Either a watered down or possibly no upcharge. No upcharge just screams back ordered

> > > > >

> > > > > There’s no way a $350 shaft is a stock offering. A Tensei Pro shaft is a $250 upcharge via TM and is $360.

> > > >

> > > > When companies buy shafts in bulk that price is a lot less and can be offered at the no upcharge price.

> > >

> > > So how many $350 shafts does a company have to buy to bring the cost per shaft down to roughly $100 without lowering the material content quality?

> > >

> > > Sorry, its just not feasible IMHO.

> >

> > So the Ventus sells for 350 on golfworks and other places.

>

> It could very likely be a real deal shaft and they may be taking just above break even to get them in the hands of the mass market. My perception of Fuji is that they are a low cost OEM stock shaft manufacturer for secondary product lines (think M6). If they want to penetrate the high end market they need to get more high end products in the hands of high level golfers to start building their brand. I think they tried to do this with ATMOS but there wasn't enough tour adoption of the ATMOS line to attract buyers... Now that Ventus is in the hands of a couple familiar faces on tour it's time to strike.

>

The Atmos in the M6 woods was a made for, not a TS real deal.

 

[noodle3872]

Was watching TXG’s live session from this past Monday. Ian answered a question about which club was a disappointing performer and he mentioned the Speed Foam injected M5/M6 drivers were slower ball speed wise than expected. He said he expects the TM 2020 drivers to be much quicker off the face. I’ve been super happy with my M6’s performance so this new release will be one I will be watching closely and be eager to test against my M6.

[Valtiel]

> @Rig14Port said:

> > @driveandputtmachine said:

> > > @noodle3872 said:

> > > > @GoGoErky said:

> > > > > @noodle3872 said:

> > > > > > @mrmikeac said:

> > > > > > > @TheMoneyShot said:

> > > > > > > > @wheelz said:

> > > > > > > > Stock shafts I know for sure are Ventus Blue & Red (based on this Black should be $0 upcharge), HZRDUS Smoke, & a Diamana shaft assuming 4th gen series.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Watered down Ventus shaft?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Highly doubt Ventus will be stock. Either a watered down or possibly no upcharge. No upcharge just screams back ordered

> > > > >

> > > > > There’s no way a $350 shaft is a stock offering. A Tensei Pro shaft is a $250 upcharge via TM and is $360.

> > > >

> > > > When companies buy shafts in bulk that price is a lot less and can be offered at the no upcharge price.

> > >

> > > So how many $350 shafts does a company have to buy to bring the cost per shaft down to roughly $100 without lowering the material content quality?

> > >

> > > Sorry, its just not feasible IMHO.

> >

> > So the Ventus sells for 350 on golfworks and other places.

>

> It could very likely be a real deal shaft and they may be taking just above break even to get them in the hands of the mass market. My perception of Fuji is that they are a low cost OEM stock shaft manufacturer for secondary product lines (think M6). If they want to penetrate the high end market they need to get more high end products in the hands of high level golfers to start building their brand. I think they tried to do this with ATMOS but there wasn't enough tour adoption of the ATMOS line to attract buyers... Now that Ventus is in the hands of a couple familiar faces on tour it's time to strike.

>

 

Fuji is and has been high end for decades now. Lots of tour guys used the Atmos and tons used the Motore Speeders, even still today.

[SUPERG]

> @Breaking_Baddeley said:

> > @SUPERG said:

> > At this point we just have to live with the "made for", most of us on WRX don't ever by stock at all. Expecting an OEM to put a real deal shaft in is crazy. The days of that are over, adams used to be the champ in that realm. All of them are guilty of it, it may be painted like the real deal but its always weak. Titliest stock stuff is always higher torque than an actual aftermarket shaft, yet tity fan boys rave about the diamana ltd they got. Callaway laughs in ur face with a T800 shaft like people would actually think they got the 400 buck T1100 lol. TM has had crap in the clubs stock since way back, even the TP stuff was always some obscure spin off of a real deal shaft. I know consumers think they deserve to go into a golf shop and leave with a club stock that will blow them away, this aint the case for golfers who actually give a **** about gear.

> > Love TM, but I'll never hold my breath for the day I can grab a new head for 300 and figure out the shaft on my own.

>

> I have to agree it's frustrating paying $550 for a club with a watered down shaft and then having to sell the shaft for pennies on the dollar because you only want the head. OEMs make more money this way, but if any of the **major** OEMs were to individually allow head purchasing separate from the entire club, then they could potentially surpass any of their direct competitors for that fiscal year and gain a larger market presence in the following year. I'm surprised no OEM has tried this in a down year to help recoup losses or drive profits.

 

Absolutely, and if anybody is primed to do it it’s TM considering they’ve never changed the adapter. Plenty of my golf buddies always look for a TM head to pop in some old faithful shaft they’ve had for years.