Leaves in the fall. Do you declare a lost ball or take a free drop?

[LeoLeo99]

I play cheaper balls this time of year and don't spend a lot of time looking for balls in leaves. I drop and hit.

[Hawkeye77]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> And this is why there's a closed handicap posting season.

 

LOL, the irony!

 

 

[Newby]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @Moo said:

> > > > > As soon as the leaves start falling faster than the grounds crew can blow/sweep them up, most every group I play with allows for f-14. You can't blast it into the woods and make the claim, but this time of year balls 1 yard off the fairway can just disappear.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if we have a ten dollar bet or something, almost everyone will have watched the path the lost ball was on and agree with the free drop.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you Moo. That is exactly my point.

> > >

> > > Still wouldn't necessarily have to go back to the tee if lost ball.

> >

> > Correct on two ..... you could and should also hit a provisional to start with. Buster will be in play you can bet.

>

> Or if the course has local rule in play, penalty drop under the new rules!

>

>

 

and it is a 2 stroke penalty

[HatsForBats]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > I play as lost ball.

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand and agree with sawgrass above , except I know that it just gives my group of cheaters licensee to cheat. As in any lost ball is now “ close to some leaves “ and therefore GuR. It’s s slippery slope. I’d rather risk my own score than let them cheat.

> > > >

> > > > So let me get this straight, you are going to honestly tell your playing partner they have to go back and re-tee because he can't find his ball due to so many leaves on the ground you can't even see the grass? WTF man you are brutal. I'm not for cheating but just like a plugged ball in wet conditions under the new rules of the USGA if you know your ball was in play, you get a free drop in a casual round.

> > >

> > > 100 %. If we are playing for a dollar yes. Poops and giggles , I don’t care what you do. I’m only concerned with my score then. But I’m not giving myself shots there if it’s my ball. I’ll go back.

> > >

> > > You don’t understand the level some will go to cheat. Where is the line drawn ? Edge of the woods? Edge of a hazard ? The guys I’m talking about will use every inch you give them. Plus a foot. You’d basically be giving them a free drop for EVERY lost ball. Well ****. Give me that and I’ll swing away every tee.

> >

> > The thing is they are not lying. You saw where the ball landed and it was clear as day if there were not leaves or the ground wasn't wet that the ball would be in play and found in that general area.

> >

> > We know what we saw, we don't have to think that someone is lying to improve their score. Even if I am playing for money and I believe that the only reason their ball is lost is because of the wet conditions or millions of leaves on the ground, I'm telling them to take a free drop because I can't take their money knowing that their ball was in play and they had to take a penalty because of it. Honesty goes both ways.

>

> Again. Where do you draw the line ? Tree line ? Hazard line etc. “ in play “ is a very relative thing. For just OB vs not OB yes. But these guys are never going to drop in a grove of trees etc. they are going to swear it was “ just in the rough “ while we all saw it fly into the tree line.

>

> Maybe the disconnect is the trees. We have a lot of pines and old growth hardwood here. Where a ball can easily be played sideways 40 yards into the trees but almost never a window to the green. These trees are 10 -15 yards off the fairway. Or closer. You have to know exactly where it ended up. And there’s no way to know that.

 

The disconnect might be your group. We played our first round this weekend with the leaf rule in place. Guy off the first tee blocked one to the right into trees (no O/B or hazards in the area). He thought he should be able to drop about 30 yards further up than where we eventually agreed he would. Since no-one saw the ball after it hit the tree we agreed he would play from under the tree (oak) on the side away from the fairway. Our group goes by the concensus of the group and the motto is 'you may be getting a break so make your next shot challenging'.

[Hawkeye77]

> @Newby said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @Moo said:

> > > > > > As soon as the leaves start falling faster than the grounds crew can blow/sweep them up, most every group I play with allows for f-14. You can't blast it into the woods and make the claim, but this time of year balls 1 yard off the fairway can just disappear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even if we have a ten dollar bet or something, almost everyone will have watched the path the lost ball was on and agree with the free drop.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you Moo. That is exactly my point.

> > > >

> > > > Still wouldn't necessarily have to go back to the tee if lost ball.

> > >

> > > Correct on two ..... you could and should also hit a provisional to start with. Buster will be in play you can bet.

> >

> > Or if the course has local rule in play, penalty drop under the new rules!

> >

> >

>

> and it is a 2 stroke penalty

 

Hence “penalty drop”.

[bladehunter]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > I play as lost ball.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I understand and agree with sawgrass above , except I know that it just gives my group of cheaters licensee to cheat. As in any lost ball is now “ close to some leaves “ and therefore GuR. It’s s slippery slope. I’d rather risk my own score than let them cheat.

> > > > >

> > > > > So let me get this straight, you are going to honestly tell your playing partner they have to go back and re-tee because he can't find his ball due to so many leaves on the ground you can't even see the grass? WTF man you are brutal. I'm not for cheating but just like a plugged ball in wet conditions under the new rules of the USGA if you know your ball was in play, you get a free drop in a casual round.

> > > >

> > > > 100 %. If we are playing for a dollar yes. Poops and giggles , I don’t care what you do. I’m only concerned with my score then. But I’m not giving myself shots there if it’s my ball. I’ll go back.

> > > >

> > > > You don’t understand the level some will go to cheat. Where is the line drawn ? Edge of the woods? Edge of a hazard ? The guys I’m talking about will use every inch you give them. Plus a foot. You’d basically be giving them a free drop for EVERY lost ball. Well ****. Give me that and I’ll swing away every tee.

> > >

> > > The thing is they are not lying. You saw where the ball landed and it was clear as day if there were not leaves or the ground wasn't wet that the ball would be in play and found in that general area.

> > >

> > > We know what we saw, we don't have to think that someone is lying to improve their score. Even if I am playing for money and I believe that the only reason their ball is lost is because of the wet conditions or millions of leaves on the ground, I'm telling them to take a free drop because I can't take their money knowing that their ball was in play and they had to take a penalty because of it. Honesty goes both ways.

> >

> > Again. Where do you draw the line ? Tree line ? Hazard line etc. “ in play “ is a very relative thing. For just OB vs not OB yes. But these guys are never going to drop in a grove of trees etc. they are going to swear it was “ just in the rough “ while we all saw it fly into the tree line.

> >

> > Maybe the disconnect is the trees. We have a lot of pines and old growth hardwood here. Where a ball can easily be played sideways 40 yards into the trees but almost never a window to the green. These trees are 10 -15 yards off the fairway. Or closer. You have to know exactly where it ended up. And there’s no way to know that.

>

> The disconnect might be your group. We played our first round this weekend with the leaf rule in place. Guy off the first tee blocked one to the right into trees (no O/B or hazards in the area). He thought he should be able to drop about 30 yards further up than where we eventually agreed he would. Since no-one saw the ball after it hit the tree we agreed he would play from under the tree (oak) on the side away from the fairway. Our group goes by the concensus of the group and the motto is 'you may be getting a break so make your next shot challenging'.

 

Quite possibly so , but that cements my opinion even more. When playing with robbers you have to guard the gold.

 

My experience doesn’t sound far off yours. After all your guy in your examples tried to subtly cheat himself. We all see a balll flight. And we all know it wasn’t 30 yards farther up. The difference in the way most cheats play and the way I play is that I won’t try to see what I can get away with. I’ll play it further back if there’s any question to be safe. I don’t even like touching a ball if it’s LCP. I feel like it’s bad luck. That’s what I call honest play. And I find that level to be rare. Sounds self serving and arrogant I know. But I honestly am not trying to be. I just feel convicted to play by the rules when I respect the situation ( this game ).

 

 

I ask one of our cheats this one time. “ how often do you get a bad break in this game “. He answered quickly “ all the time. “. Then I said “ now how often do you actually pay for that bad luck with a penalty stroke or having to punch out etc “. He stopped and didn’t answer for a moment. Then sheepishly said “ well I’m usually lucky enough to get help from a local rule or good drop etc”. To which I just smiled. He had answered my question perfectly. If you get bad breaks and never have to pay for them , you’re a cheat. Whether it’s conscious or not. ( not you personally ). I get bad breaks and majority of the time I pay for them , dearly.

[dlygrisse]

When playing with my normal group, always for some $$$, we clarify on the 1st tee that we are playing the "leaf rule". Which means if everyone believes the ball to be in play then you get a free drop closest to where we believe the ball to be.

 

Are there some arguments? sure, on occasion. But we are all good friends and like to find a reason to bitch moan and fight most every round anyway. :wink:

 

 

[sailfishchris]

I'm going to be playing with a group on Monday that has a "leaves" rule. The most notorious member has a bag of about 30 balls-for free drops.

[Irishman1979]

Who would ever drop 30 yards ahead of where the ball ended up? WTF?

 

How can people actually play golf knowing they cheat that bad? Do they feel good making a par when they cheat?

[Sawgrass]

> @dlygrisse said:

> When playing with my normal group, always for some $$$, we clarify on the 1st tee that we are playing the "leaf rule". Which means if everyone believes the ball to be in play then you get a free drop closest to where we believe the ball to be.

>

> Are there some arguments? sure, on occasion. But we are all good friends and like to find a reason to **** moan and fight most every round anyway. :wink:

>

>

 

Of course, do what you like. But the actual local rule doesn’t have you drop where you believe the ball to be, but rather where you estimate it last crossed into the leafy area (which is likely back further than where it came to rest).

[HatsForBats]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> Who would ever drop 30 yards ahead of where the ball ended up? WTF?

>

> How can people actually play golf knowing they cheat that bad? Do they feel good making a par when they cheat?

 

Was that directed at my comment? Nobody knows where the ball ended up. As I said nobody saw it after it came in contact with the tree. I have no problems with a player having a different opinion than me. We discussed it amongst the group, came to a quick decision and resolved it amicably. A good end result in my book.

 

I don't know about your experience but in general it seems to me most players start looking for their wayward golf balls at a location much further along than they actually end up at. I have been guilty of it on occasion as well. I can't fault a player for having a different opinion of where their individual poor shot ended up. As long as we can resolve it with a quick discussion on mostly amicable terms I don't see the issue or a need to call someone a cheater.

[Moo]

I've been following this discussion and it may not be as much about free drops in the leaves as it is about the people you are playing with, and how they view their score/game.

 

I'll give an example from this week. Me and two other guys played 27. There was no discussion of F-14 for the first 20 holes, probably because the grounds crew was working all morning and the wind didn't really pick up until later in the day...and man there were a lot of leaves on that last 9. On those last 7 holes, F-14 came up 2 and half times.

 

1. A really good golfer hit a fade just over the 150 stake and the ball bounced into a large area of rough. No where near the tree-line. We all looked for his ball, knowing it was within 10 yards of our search, but couldn't find it. I told him, "take F-14", and he reluctantly did elect to do that. We were all 99.9999999% confident his ball was in play, but just hidden under a pile of leaves.

2. The other guy in our group blasted a tree off the 7th tee. His ball went hard right into the trees. There were a million leaves. No one remotely suggested F-14. He didn't want F-14 and would have refused it if offered. He took a drop and a penalty. His ball was, "in the leaves", but not really in play, and F-14 was never on the table. There was no debate about this. All 3 of us knew this was right.

3. Me and the really great player hit our drives within ten yards. On his approach, he hit 3 wood to the right edge of the fairway. I hit 5 wood on the exact same line, but maybe 15 yards shorter. My ball was GONE. No tree-line, just rough and a million leaves. They offered F-14, but I didn't drop where I thought my 5 wood would have ended up, but rather walked back to the elevated sand trap we all saw the ball clear and took my free drop. So, I took a free drop and gave myself probably a 25-35 yard penalty, as the point I dropped was the very last place I had seen my ball fly over.

 

That said, we play often with a guy that pushes every possible rule to his favor to the extreme. Everyone likes this guy, but whenever he posts a score, in my mind, there is an asterisk.

 

So, is it really about a rule or rather about how the players you are playing with think about the real game.

 

 

[dlygrisse]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > When playing with my normal group, always for some $$$, we clarify on the 1st tee that we are playing the "leaf rule". Which means if everyone believes the ball to be in play then you get a free drop closest to where we believe the ball to be.

> >

> > Are there some arguments? sure, on occasion. But we are all good friends and like to find a reason to **** moan and fight most every round anyway. :wink:

> >

> >

>

> Of course, do what you like. But the actual local rule doesn’t have you drop where you believe the ball to be, but rather where you estimate it last crossed into the leafy area (which is likely back further than where it came to rest).

 

oh, good to know. I might throw that out there.....just to start a "conversation"

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @dlygrisse said:

> > > When playing with my normal group, always for some $$$, we clarify on the 1st tee that we are playing the "leaf rule". Which means if everyone believes the ball to be in play then you get a free drop closest to where we believe the ball to be.

> > >

> > > Are there some arguments? sure, on occasion. But we are all good friends and like to find a reason to **** moan and fight most every round anyway. :wink:

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Of course, do what you like. But the actual local rule doesn’t have you drop where you believe the ball to be, but rather where you estimate it last crossed into the leafy area (which is likely back further than where it came to rest).

>

> oh, good to know. I might throw that out there.....just to start a "conversation"

>

>

 

If you do chose to discuss it, note that the LR leads you here:

 

e. Relief for Ball Not Found but in or on Abnormal Course Condition

 

If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in or on an abnormal course condition on the course, the player may use this relief option instead of taking stroke-and-distance relief:

 

The player may take relief under Rule 16.1b, c or d, using the estimated point where the ball last crossed the edge of the abnormal course condition on the course as the spot of the ball for purposes of finding the nearest point of complete relief.

 

Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:

 

The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.

 

This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b)

 

But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in or on an abnormal course condition and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.

 

 

 

 

[Imp]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> And this is why there's a closed handicap posting season.

 

Came here to say this ^^^

 

If your area is still allowing handicap entry, then you either follow the local rule if in effect, or, deal with the penalty.

 

If posting has closed for the season, your committee/friends you play with can decide. (And again, usually everyone says "just take a drop").

 

--kC

[Irishman1979]

What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

[HitEmTrue]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

 

What if someone shoots an 82 and enters an 89?

 

What if someone plays with 30 clubs in their bag?

 

What if someone kicks the ball to a better lie on every hole?

 

I can come up with 100 more if you want. :)

 

[Pepperturbo]

When my ball is lost in the "fairway" under leaves, it's annoying as he**. As long as I am not playing a rules game or in a tournament, and can't find my ball but know it's in the fairway, I'll probably take a free drop. There's a course I play that has many large shedding Oak trees with big leaves, and the course doesn't sweep the fairways. However, if I know my ball was heading towards the rough and lost, leaves or otherwise, it's a stroke.

[farmer]

DL, very reasonable, maintains the friendly part of golf, Blade, you need to find some different guys with whom to play

[Hawkeye77]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

 

Cheat however you want.

[Irishman1979]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

>

> Cheat however you want.

 

Not cheating as long as you stick to the same course rating and slope. The course could be located on the moon ?

 

You still can’t deny the person and what they shot. Hitting a ball with a club is just that.

 

Golf.

[Sawgrass]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

> >

> > Cheat however you want.

>

> Not cheating as long as you stick to the same course rating and slope. The course could be located on the moon ?

>

> You still can’t deny the person and what they shot. Hitting a ball with a club is just that.

>

> Golf.

 

It's "not cheating" as long as the course you played is in its active season at the time you played. Otherwise, cheating.

 

Golf.

 

 

[davep043]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

> > >

> > > Cheat however you want.

> >

> > Not cheating as long as you stick to the same course rating and slope. The course could be located on the moon ?

> >

> > You still can’t deny the person and what they shot. Hitting a ball with a club is just that.

> >

> > Golf.

>

> It's "not cheating" as long as the course you played is in its active season at the time you played. Otherwise, cheating.

>

> Golf.

>

>

 

@Irishman1979 has somehow decided that cheating on your handicap isn't actually cheating. He claims that he never plays net games, so I'm not sure why he cares, but he's obsessed with the handicap system, and ways to get around the rules.

[sayashop]

Free drop all day

[Hawkeye77]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > What if a northern player was to say get the course rating and slope and match it up with a course in a warm weather climate so he posted the score in the winter? No one would ever know. Score is score. :smiley:

> >

> > Cheat however you want.

>

> Not cheating as long as you stick to the same course rating and slope. The course could be located on the moon ?

>

> You still can’t deny the person and what they shot. Hitting a ball with a club is just that.

>

> Golf.

 

Of course it is, but you seem intent on trolling rules issues.

[Roadking2003]

This thread is very confusing.

 

Many have posted that they may or may not take a free drop for a ball lost in the leaves, or they may or may not allow their opponents to take that drop. But aren't the rules (F14) clear? You don't get to decide if your opponent gets a free drop. And taking the drop is not cheating.

 

If F14 is in effect, you get a free drop. It's not cheating. So why all the debate about cheating?

[Sawgrass]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> This thread is very confusing.

>

> Many have posted that they may or may not take a free drop for a ball lost in the leaves, or they may or may not allow their opponents to take that drop. But aren't the rules (F14) clear? You don't get to decide if your opponent gets a free drop. And taking the drop is not cheating.

>

> If F14 is in effect, you get a free drop. It's not cheating. So why all the debate about cheating?

 

See post #46, describing a deliberate attempt to (the poster thinks) "fool" a computer into accepting a score made on an out-of-season course.

[Hawkeye77]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> This thread is very confusing.

>

> Many have posted that they may or may not take a free drop for a ball lost in the leaves, or they may or may not allow their opponents to take that drop. But aren't the rules (F14) clear? You don't get to decide if your opponent gets a free drop. And taking the drop is not cheating.

>

> If F14 is in effect, you get a free drop. It's not cheating. So why all the debate about cheating?

 

Yep, OP still caught up in railing against closed seasons for posting and now posits a fake way to post his out of season scores (which he knows is bogus, but there you are).

[Shades234]

> @Irishman1979 said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > I play as lost ball.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I understand and agree with sawgrass above , except I know that it just gives my group of cheaters licensee to cheat. As in any lost ball is now “ close to some leaves “ and therefore GuR. It’s s slippery slope. I’d rather risk my own score than let them cheat.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So let me get this straight, you are going to honestly tell your playing partner they have to go back and re-tee because he can't find his ball due to so many leaves on the ground you can't even see the grass? WTF man you are brutal. I'm not for cheating but just like a plugged ball in wet conditions under the new rules of the USGA if you know your ball was in play, you get a free drop in a casual round.

> > > > >

> > > > > 100 %. If we are playing for a dollar yes. Poops and giggles , I don’t care what you do. I’m only concerned with my score then. But I’m not giving myself shots there if it’s my ball. I’ll go back.

> > > > >

> > > > > You don’t understand the level some will go to cheat. Where is the line drawn ? Edge of the woods? Edge of a hazard ? The guys I’m talking about will use every inch you give them. Plus a foot. You’d basically be giving them a free drop for EVERY lost ball. Well ****. Give me that and I’ll swing away every tee.

> > > >

> > > > The thing is they are not lying. You saw where the ball landed and it was clear as day if there were not leaves or the ground wasn't wet that the ball would be in play and that general area.

> > > >

> > > > We know what we saw, we don't have to think that someone is lying to improve their score.

> > >

> > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > @Irishman1979 said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > I play as lost ball.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I understand and agree with sawgrass above , except I know that it just gives my group of cheaters licensee to cheat. As in any lost ball is now “ close to some leaves “ and therefore GuR. It’s s slippery slope. I’d rather risk my own score than let them cheat.

> > > > >

> > > > > So let me get this straight, you are going to honestly tell your playing partner they have to go back and re-tee because he can't find his ball due to so many leaves on the ground that even yourself can't see the grass? WTF man you are brutal. I'm not for cheating but just like a plugged ball in wet conditions under the new rules of the USGA if you know your ball was in play, you get a free drop in a casual round. Thats only fair in my opinion. No reason to penalize someone for hitting a ball in play.

> > > >

> > > > Do they HAVE to "re-tee"?

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes if you declare it a lost ball they have to.

> >

> > Dig around in the Rules and show us where it's permitted to declare a ball as lost.

>

> A ball is deemed “lost” if:

> a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

> b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

> c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

> d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

> e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

 

Where did you copy these from? The search time is 3 minutes. You may want to refer to the 2019 rules from now on.

[Mikey5e]

Just like in the summer time, when I lose one in the rough oh, it's an automatic free drop! :)