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Rules: Another what would you have done thread.


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> @Noles said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @Noles said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? Should parents not be at basketball, soccer, baseball, football, volleyball games when their kid plays either?

> > > >

> > > > For the sports you mention, if parents behave they can be a spectator from the stands, sidelines, or other appropriate viewing area. The parents who misbehave should be expelled by the game's referee or school administrator.

> > > > Golf courses do not have stands, ropes, or other boundaries separating players from spectators.Sadly, sometimes parents walk with or talk to junior players during tournaments, which is not good for anybody. Junior tournaments should definitely not permit parents to caddie for kids.

> > >

> > > Those sports also have other adults there to supervise the kids (coaches and refs) in case something goes wrong. We are just supposed to let young kids walk 4-5 miles over 5 hours with no adult supervision? I think not.

> >

> > I think age 11 or 12 is o.k. for starting to play local junior golf tournaments. Kids of that age are fine to be playing a golf course without parental supervision.

>

> For yourself that is fine but you don't get to decide that for other parents.

 

I know I don't "get to decide". Some junior tournament's have rules forbidding parents from caddying and,or, walking the golf course. Other tournaments have no such rules. Some parents decide on their own to stay off the course, but others want to walk and watch , or be their youngster's caddie etc....

My perspective is that there are plenty of opportunities and times for parents to practice or play golf with their kids , talk golf with their kids etc... , but there is no good sense reason to do that during tournament rounds.

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> @bulls9999 said:

> ** But a parent saying something to a junior kid, uhm, that's bad form and could get ugly with other parents, etc. (you had no right, you just accused my son, you ruined his remaining tournament play, etc). **

 

This is exactly what happened to us. A playing partner's caddie daddy called out an infraction, with an intimidating demeanor, on my son. The infraction was incorrect, but boy did it rattle my son's nerve for the rest of the round. For me, being pissed does not remotely describe the feeling.

 

If I want to call an infraction on a player, I will talk to the other player's caddy first. If my son saw the infraction, I will let him call it out instead of me talking to the kid directly.

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> @Noles said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @Noles said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? Should parents not be at basketball, soccer, baseball, football, volleyball games when their kid plays either?

> > > >

> > > > For the sports you mention, if parents behave they can be a spectator from the stands, sidelines, or other appropriate viewing area. The parents who misbehave should be expelled by the game's referee or school administrator.

> > > > Golf courses do not have stands, ropes, or other boundaries separating players from spectators.Sadly, sometimes parents walk with or talk to junior players during tournaments, which is not good for anybody. Junior tournaments should definitely not permit parents to caddie for kids.

> > >

> > > Those sports also have other adults there to supervise the kids (coaches and refs) in case something goes wrong. We are just supposed to let young kids walk 4-5 miles over 5 hours with no adult supervision? I think not.

> >

> > I think age 11 or 12 is o.k. for starting to play local junior golf tournaments. Kids of that age are fine to be playing a golf course without parental supervision.

>

> For yourself that is fine but you don't get to decide that for other parents.

 

True, usually the governing body for the sport does this. At MS age, in school, they are not allowed a caddie, and parents/spectators have to stay a certain distance away. Advice is not allowed, but encouragement is. Some states allow coaches to walk alongside or give advice, some states do not (coaches become spectators).

Playing without adult supervision is needed for development in all areas, not just for the game of golf. We want (need) our kids to become functioning independent humans, and this begins at about that age and small steps before..

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Noles said: If you rely on local and state associations, you are limiting the schools that will find you. Unless of course that is not something that a player is looking for.

>

> Golf is an individual sport, player against the course. So, if a player is exceptionally good he/she shoots low scores against the course and wins tournaments. College golf coaches could not care less how many tournaments around the country little Johnny or Janey entered . College golf coaches want good academic students who can consistently shoot par 72, and local, regional state tournaments are more than adequate to prove that golf skill.

> I promise you that if a boy or girl routinely shoots 72 or better to win local junior tournaments, and shoots 72's or better to win county and amateur state tournaments against a field of adults, , he/she will be able to choose from a big selection of schools offering golf scholarships.

>

>

>

 

Hate to say this, but you are wrong. I have a kid that plays D1 College golf. What you are saying was true 25 years ago. It isn't true today at all.

I am GenX.  If you really think I care about what you have to say, I don't.

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> @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > @Noles said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Noles said:

> > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > > Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why? Should parents not be at basketball, soccer, baseball, football, volleyball games when their kid plays either?

> > > > >

> > > > > For the sports you mention, if parents behave they can be a spectator from the stands, sidelines, or other appropriate viewing area. The parents who misbehave should be expelled by the game's referee or school administrator.

> > > > > Golf courses do not have stands, ropes, or other boundaries separating players from spectators.Sadly, sometimes parents walk with or talk to junior players during tournaments, which is not good for anybody. Junior tournaments should definitely not permit parents to caddie for kids.

> > > >

> > > > Those sports also have other adults there to supervise the kids (coaches and refs) in case something goes wrong. We are just supposed to let young kids walk 4-5 miles over 5 hours with no adult supervision? I think not.

> > >

> > > I think age 11 or 12 is o.k. for starting to play local junior golf tournaments. Kids of that age are fine to be playing a golf course without parental supervision.

> >

> > For yourself that is fine but you don't get to decide that for other parents.

>

> True, usually the governing body for the sport does this. At MS age, in school, they are not allowed a caddie, and parents/spectators have to stay a certain distance away. Advice is not allowed, but encouragement is. Some states allow coaches to walk alongside or give advice, some states do not (coaches become spectators).

> Playing without adult supervision is needed for development in all areas, not just for the game of golf. We want (need) our kids to become functioning independent humans, and this begins at about that age and small steps before..

 

My kid plays high school golf and I attended one match. Didn't need to and didn't want to. My kid has been walking and playing on the course by himself since he was 10. When I have to spend money for him to travel across the state to play, more than likely I am going to watch. Same thing if he was playing a basketball game.

I am GenX.  If you really think I care about what you have to say, I don't.

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> @"Mr. Grumpy" said:

> > @Noles said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Noles said:

> > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > > Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why? Should parents not be at basketball, soccer, baseball, football, volleyball games when their kid plays either?

> > > > >

> > > > > For the sports you mention, if parents behave they can be a spectator from the stands, sidelines, or other appropriate viewing area. The parents who misbehave should be expelled by the game's referee or school administrator.

> > > > > Golf courses do not have stands, ropes, or other boundaries separating players from spectators.Sadly, sometimes parents walk with or talk to junior players during tournaments, which is not good for anybody. Junior tournaments should definitely not permit parents to caddie for kids.

> > > >

> > > > Those sports also have other adults there to supervise the kids (coaches and refs) in case something goes wrong. We are just supposed to let young kids walk 4-5 miles over 5 hours with no adult supervision? I think not.

> > >

> > > I think age 11 or 12 is o.k. for starting to play local junior golf tournaments. Kids of that age are fine to be playing a golf course without parental supervision.

> >

> > For yourself that is fine but you don't get to decide that for other parents.

>

> True, usually the governing body for the sport does this. At MS age, in school, they are not allowed a caddie, and parents/spectators have to stay a certain distance away. Advice is not allowed, but encouragement is. Some states allow coaches to walk alongside or give advice, some states do not (coaches become spectators).

> Playing without adult supervision is needed for development in all areas, not just for the game of golf. We want (need) our kids to become functioning independent humans, and this begins at about that age and small steps before..

 

You are quoting my post and saying this as if I have no experience in Junior golf. I responded to a post that said "parents should not be on the golf course during tournament play." That is what I am disagreeing with. The things that you mentioned above have nothing to do with that.

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Noles said: If you rely on local and state associations, you are limiting the schools that will find you. Unless of course that is not something that a player is looking for.

>

> Golf is an individual sport, player against the course. So, if a player is exceptionally good he/she shoots low scores against the course and wins tournaments. College golf coaches could not care less how many tournaments around the country little Johnny or Janey entered . College golf coaches want good academic students who can consistently shoot par 72, and local, regional state tournaments are more than adequate to prove that golf skill.

> I promise you that if a boy or girl routinely shoots 72 or better to win local junior tournaments, and shoots 72's or better to win county and amateur state tournaments against a field of adults, , he/she will be able to choose from a big selection of schools offering golf scholarships.

>

>

>

 

I will concede that if a junior is winning a state am, then maybe he cas skip junior golf but that really isn't where this conversation started. And he still limits the number of colleges that will notice him.

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> @Noles said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @Noles said: If you rely on local and state associations, you are limiting the schools that will find you. Unless of course that is not something that a player is looking for.

> >

> > Golf is an individual sport, player against the course. So, if a player is exceptionally good he/she shoots low scores against the course and wins tournaments. College golf coaches could not care less how many tournaments around the country little Johnny or Janey entered . College golf coaches want good academic students who can consistently shoot par 72, and local, regional state tournaments are more than adequate to prove that golf skill.

> > I promise you that if a boy or girl routinely shoots 72 or better to win local junior tournaments, and shoots 72's or better to win county and amateur state tournaments against a field of adults, , he/she will be able to choose from a big selection of schools offering golf scholarships.

> >

> >

> >

>

> I will concede that if a junior is winning a state am, then maybe he cas skip junior golf but that really isn't where this conversation started. And he still limits the number of colleges that will notice him.

 

Please take the time to read my posts, because I never suggested any player "skip junior golf".

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Cleveland HB Launcher 15* 3-wood

Srixon H65  19* 3 hybrid and 22* 4 hybrid

Mizuno MP63 5 thru 9-iron

Cleveland RTX 48-52-56-64 wedges

Scotty Cameron Classic III putter

 

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Noles said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Noles said: If you rely on local and state associations, you are limiting the schools that will find you. Unless of course that is not something that a player is looking for.

> > >

> > > Golf is an individual sport, player against the course. So, if a player is exceptionally good he/she shoots low scores against the course and wins tournaments. College golf coaches could not care less how many tournaments around the country little Johnny or Janey entered . College golf coaches want good academic students who can consistently shoot par 72, and local, regional state tournaments are more than adequate to prove that golf skill.

> > > I promise you that if a boy or girl routinely shoots 72 or better to win local junior tournaments, and shoots 72's or better to win county and amateur state tournaments against a field of adults, , he/she will be able to choose from a big selection of schools offering golf scholarships.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I will concede that if a junior is winning a state am, then maybe he cas skip junior golf but that really isn't where this conversation started. And he still limits the number of colleges that will notice him.

>

> Please take the time to read my posts, because I never suggested any player "skip junior golf".

 

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Noles said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Noles said: If you rely on local and state associations, you are limiting the schools that will find you. Unless of course that is not something that a player is looking for.

> > >

> > > Golf is an individual sport, player against the course. So, if a player is exceptionally good he/she shoots low scores against the course and wins tournaments. College golf coaches could not care less how many tournaments around the country little Johnny or Janey entered . College golf coaches want good academic students who can consistently shoot par 72, and local, regional state tournaments are more than adequate to prove that golf skill.

> > > I promise you that if a boy or girl routinely shoots 72 or better to win local junior tournaments, and shoots 72's or better to win county and amateur state tournaments against a field of adults, , he/she will be able to choose from a big selection of schools offering golf scholarships.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I will concede that if a junior is winning a state am, then maybe he cas skip junior golf but that really isn't where this conversation started. And he still limits the number of colleges that will notice him.

>

> Please take the time to read my posts, because I never suggested any player "skip junior golf".

 

I understand. I was exaggerating to make the point.

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> @heavy_hitter said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > @heavy_hitter said:

> > > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? Should parents not be at basketball, soccer, baseball, football, volleyball games when their kid plays either?

> > > >

> > > > For the sports you mention, if parents behave they can be a spectator from the stands, sidelines, or other appropriate viewing area. The parents who misbehave should be expelled by the game's referee or school administrator.

> > > > Golf courses do not have stands, ropes, or other boundaries separating players from spectators.Sadly, sometimes parents walk with or talk to junior players during tournaments, which is not good for anybody. Junior tournaments should definitely not permit parents to caddie for kids.

> > >

> > > This is an opinion. I don't agree with it.

> >

> > Well, most school's have some Rules governing parent behavior during sports events. And plenty of junior golf associations do not allow parents to caddie during tournaments.

>

> And?

>

> The problem with today's world is we do things for the minority rather than the majority. If there are a couple of people with behavior problems, you give them the boot. You don't ban all parents just because one is an ****. Caddying in a tournament has nothing to with what you stated. You made a blanket statement that parents shouldn't be allowed at golf tournaments. I don't agree with this.

 

Yeah. Who really needs to spend a couple of hours walking alongside and bonding with their kid, while learning life lessons at the same time?

 

There's no time for that nonsense.

 

We considered kicking our kids out of the house at 7 YO, so they could really learn the ways of the world on their own.

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> @tiger1873 said:

> > @mattwalterpga said:

> > > @Golfingdawg19 said:

> > > Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

> >

> > That’s a tough deal. But the officials right. Which is why u have to go over to the other player any time they might be taking a drop or in a penalty area. It’s a pain but ultimately u have to make sure they’re following the rules. Unfortunately we can’t always trust people to do the right thing but since I play for money I’m making sure anyone in my group isn’t going to endanger the integrity of the field by cheating. You see it on tour a lot. See example of Keegan Bradley and Jimenez incident!

>

>

> They saw the splash no need to see if it didn’t go in as it was obvious to the group that it did.

>

> Parents do it all the time in younger events and get away with it. When we first did tournament golf I use wonder why my Kid was the only kid that had bad bounces into water. Learned pretty quick that there not that lucky and my kid wasn’t as unlucky as they made out. Had my wife go ahead and watch without them knowing and she seen another parent kick my kids ball into the water.

>

>

>

>

>

This can’t have really happened?!

 

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> @yellowlover519 said:

> > @tiger1873 said:

> > > @mattwalterpga said:

> > > > @Golfingdawg19 said:

> > > > Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

> > >

> > > That’s a tough deal. But the officials right. Which is why u have to go over to the other player any time they might be taking a drop or in a penalty area. It’s a pain but ultimately u have to make sure they’re following the rules. Unfortunately we can’t always trust people to do the right thing but since I play for money I’m making sure anyone in my group isn’t going to endanger the integrity of the field by cheating. You see it on tour a lot. See example of Keegan Bradley and Jimenez incident!

> >

> >

> > They saw the splash no need to see if it didn’t go in as it was obvious to the group that it did.

> >

> > Parents do it all the time in younger events and get away with it. When we first did tournament golf I use wonder why my Kid was the only kid that had bad bounces into water. Learned pretty quick that there not that lucky and my kid wasn’t as unlucky as they made out. Had my wife go ahead and watch without them knowing and she seen another parent kick my kids ball into the water.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> This can’t have really happened?!

>

 

You may not believe me but this sure the heck happened. Well known kid too the tour had a kids on the short game tv show. It was a circus with those kids and wannabes. The stuff they did was nuts and truly unbelievable.

 

The tour had a lot issues with dads being caddies back then. The tournaments were really bad you would end up getting into shouting matches because they flat out under count. The tournament officials never did anything to stop it.

 

Last I heard they instituted a caddie badge the parents can lose. So this tour may have cleaned things up with a new director. Some tours are truly 3 ring circuses if the person running them doesn’t get rid of bad apples.

 

Most tours are not like this but quality is really dependent on running them and can change year to year.

 

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  • 1 month later...

 

Curious as to the details of what clubs are being used. Is it a full set that is non-conforming or just one club like a wedge? Always an interesting discussion now that the “groove rule” is 10 years old and newer clubs are supposed to be packed with more whiz bang technology.

It's no fun when the rabbit's got the gun.

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I would mention it to the player/parent (depending on age) and let them handle it.

Hopefully by simply knowing that you know, they will do the right thing and report it to the rules official or tournament director themselves.

And in my opinion, while rules are rules, I think there is a very big difference between someone inadvertently vs intentionally breaking them - if the former, they are able to save face while learning a very valuable lesson.

 

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i think this depends on the type of event. The only events I seen a big deal out USGA conforming clubs is USGA and AGJA events.

are these non Confirming wedges? If they are I would report them as this is clearly stated when you sign up. But if we are talking about a Normal junior event I just mention it to the parent.

 

hard to Imagine this is that big of an issue.

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The reason I mention the wedges is because the USGA made them illegal and if you Play USGA and AGJA they have lots of warnings that if you still use them your going to get DQ. So really there is no excuse especially this long after the change. If you have them then they really went out there way to find them. Now saying this I wouldn't care in most junior tournaments because if they did happen to have them it more then likely because they were thrown an old wedge to play with. Honestly I don't care what clubs kids show up at a regular junior event. I mean no one is going to risk being DQ by having non conforming clubs at higher level events if they actually have a chance of winning.

I personally have not seen anyone really not use a major brand club in there bag of course I am not peeking either if they are using an off brand then I wouldn't care in 99% of the cases it is probably inferior equipment.. I know there is an issue with some drivers being too hot but unless there altering the club in some fashion that is a manufacturing issue and not really something I even think of.

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Just because the club isn't on the conforming list doesn't necessarily mean its non-conforming. At events where this actually matters, USGA officials or the organizing body needs to have the ability to test the questioned club to make the call. I can see this being somewhat of an issue at big events where there is a large international presence. I've seen some irons out there that I have never heard of and were not on the usga list either.

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To the original dilemma; If you call the kid on the carpet for "cheating", but didn't witness it, aren't we back to taking the player for their word? Is there any recourse for hypothetical cheating with no actual witness outside of a competitors father? Was this action out of character for the player? Had he been displaying questionable behaviors throughout the round? I think a discussion post round with the competitor would be perfect, but definitely not during the competition unless you are certain of what happened.

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Your consistently evasive replies are disrespectful.

Unless it's a USGA event iron grooves affected by the 2010 USGA Rules change are allowed for tournament play until the year 2020.

C.O.R. Rules apply to drivers, but you've stated it's more than one club.

 

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      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

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