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Handicap to play blades?


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> @nsxguy said:

> > @lawsonman said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @lawsonman said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @lawsonman said:

> > > > > > Here's my problem with the whole blade debates we have around here. There is so much more to getting from the tee to the green than just the help from perimeter weighting. The foregiveness of my G410's is second to none. At age 67 my handicap is the lowest it's been in years at a 9. But a couple parts of my game that suffered the most was my proximity to the pin on shots inside 100 yards and my chipping. Those 30,40,50 yard shots with my 410's are not good compared to a iron with a narrow sole. Touch shots are so much easier with a blade. I don't play long golf courses anymore so most of my second shots on par 4's are usually between 90-160 yards. I maintain anyone that plays once a week with a little practice thrown in can play any blade they want to play from at least the 7 on down and they may play better because of the superior turf interaction of blades and narrow soled cb's. I'm sure someone will come on here and post that I'm full of crap but this has been my experience.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, we all have our opinions.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You say 7-PW is OK with a blade ? So why are your 6-UW 410s ? Or don't you play at least once a week and practice a little ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Why is turf interaction "superior" with blades ? And doesn't turf interaction depend AT LEAST as much on one's swing as the clubs one is swinging with ?

> > > >

> > > > I played the 410's this year because at 67 years old I had hoped picking up a little distance would help me out a bit. They did help with distance but as I explained in my post my short game took a dive. It might be in my head but my short game drastically improves with a more narrow sole. Just my opinion for my game. And I usually play twice a week and throw in some practice time also.

> > >

> > > The distance you picked up (over blades ?) is likely due (mostly) to stronger lofts.

> > >

> > > If your handicap is the lowest it's been in years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and meanwhile your short game "took a dive",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what is a likely conclusion ???

> > >

> > > And sure, by all means, give the blade type wedges a try. I've got GI irons and premium blade type wedges. I agree(d) with you. Bladed wedges are better.

> >

> > The conclusion is I hit the fairway off the tee and switched to a claw grip and putted the **** out of the ball.

>

> LOL

>

> Given your "evidence", THAT is the conclusion you'd come up with ? Hope you're not a lawyer.

>

> And I wonder why you STILL have the G410s listed in your signature. Did you forget to change it ?

 

My season has been over for a month or so. Haven't sold them yet. Probably won't until spring. Not a lawyer, I still work for a living.

 

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> @lawsonman said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @Mikepaul said:

> > > If you can find the centre of the face with regularity you can play blades, shafts can compensate for lower swing speed (ie 80mph) . In addition, unless you like to shape, left right, high/low straight, left and right - don’t play blades. Large Cavity back irons can produce straight shots.

> > >

> > > I don’t use handicap as a reference to play blades because some Mid-handicappers are flushers but are diabolical at chip and putt activities . If Shane lowery played these shots on their behalf they would play off scratch. I recently played wit a 13 handicap who carries his driver 320 with ease, flushes irons but is petrified of a 2 foot put. Yes plays blades and they suit him.

> >

> > If I had a dollar for every higher handicapper I’ve heard of on here who is a scratch level ball striker but doesn’t have a short game...

>

> Same could be said for everyone who says they're 320 straight down the middle...?

 

The math of being a scratch ballstriker and have a 13-15 index is almost impossible to fathom. Your short game would have to be so bad that anyone actually having that skillset would quit golf out of frustration

 

I agree though you see a lot of posts where guys say they are long and straight. They're can't be THAT many guys who hit it 300 and straight every time either

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> @MtlJeff said:

> > @lawsonman said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @Mikepaul said:

> > > > If you can find the centre of the face with regularity you can play blades, shafts can compensate for lower swing speed (ie 80mph) . In addition, unless you like to shape, left right, high/low straight, left and right - don’t play blades. Large Cavity back irons can produce straight shots.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t use handicap as a reference to play blades because some Mid-handicappers are flushers but are diabolical at chip and putt activities . If Shane lowery played these shots on their behalf they would play off scratch. I recently played wit a 13 handicap who carries his driver 320 with ease, flushes irons but is petrified of a 2 foot put. Yes plays blades and they suit him.

> > >

> > > If I had a dollar for every higher handicapper I’ve heard of on here who is a scratch level ball striker but doesn’t have a short game...

> >

> > Same could be said for everyone who says they're 320 straight down the middle...?

>

> The math of being a scratch ballstriker and have a 13-15 index is almost impossible to fathom. Your short game would have to be so bad that anyone actually having that skillset would quit golf out of frustration

>

> I agree though you see a lot of posts where guys say they are long and straight. They're can't be THAT many guys who hit it 300 and straight every time either

 

I’m nowhere near a scratch-level ball striker...but my wedge shots from 100 yards in have been so bad recently that I have considered quitting. Stupid and frustrating getting into position and taking 4 more to get down. My wedge play has been costing me 6-8 shots a round all summer. Now playing to leave 150 yards in with 7-iron and started to score much better while at the same working really hard on the range to get at least a functional wedge game going.

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My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green. So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a good ball striker but not shoot low scores. Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

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> @Fairway14 said:

> My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green. So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a good ball striker but not shoot low scores. Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

Here is someone that's a good ball striker with a horrendous short game:

-Hits 10 GIR per round, 3-putts half of them.

-8 Missed Greens = 2 up and downs

--> still makes 7 pars and averages 83. Around a 10-handicap but not much above that. I've never seen someone like this but I guess they can exist.

 

Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

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> @MtlJeff said:

>

> The math of being a scratch ballstriker and have a 13-15 index is almost impossible to fathom. Your short game would have to be so bad that anyone actually having that skillset would quit golf out of frustration

>

 

 

You're not including enough variables.

 

It's not "ballstriking" as it's classically defined that's important when it comes to being able to play blades effectively, but the ability to hit the ball in the center of the face reasonably often. There are a lot of ways to hit the ball solidly and yet miss a green. Direction, variable swingspeed from shot to shot, inability to assess wind or even simple elevation.... left, right, long, short, it's all in play.

 

Then there's tee game, which isn't directly tied to one's ability to solidly hit one's irons. Hard to keep the GIR up when you're punching out of trees several times a round.

 

And putting... The number of golfers whose ability to putt is diametrically opposed to the rest of their game is legendary.

 

And so on. :)

 

I've lived some of this, which is perhaps why I see it easier than others. I admit I don't entirely understand how others *don't* see it..

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> @agolf1 said:

 

>

> Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

 

Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

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> @Fairway14 said:

> My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green. So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a good ball striker but not shoot low scores. Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

 

I have never seen a 10 handicap that is “on or next to every green”. I’ve never seen a scratch player that would fit that description and I think most plus handicaps and pros would have a hard time fitting it.

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> @mahonie said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @lawsonman said:

> > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > @Mikepaul said:

> > > > > If you can find the centre of the face with regularity you can play blades, shafts can compensate for lower swing speed (ie 80mph) . In addition, unless you like to shape, left right, high/low straight, left and right - don’t play blades. Large Cavity back irons can produce straight shots.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don’t use handicap as a reference to play blades because some Mid-handicappers are flushers but are diabolical at chip and putt activities . If Shane lowery played these shots on their behalf they would play off scratch. I recently played wit a 13 handicap who carries his driver 320 with ease, flushes irons but is petrified of a 2 foot put. Yes plays blades and they suit him.

> > > >

> > > > If I had a dollar for every higher handicapper I’ve heard of on here who is a scratch level ball striker but doesn’t have a short game...

> > >

> > > Same could be said for everyone who says they're 320 straight down the middle...?

> >

> > The math of being a scratch ballstriker and have a 13-15 index is almost impossible to fathom. Your short game would have to be so bad that anyone actually having that skillset would quit golf out of frustration

> >

> > I agree though you see a lot of posts where guys say they are long and straight. They're can't be THAT many guys who hit it 300 and straight every time either

>

> I’m nowhere near a scratch-level ball striker...but my wedge shots from 100 yards in have been so bad recently that I have considered quitting. Stupid and frustrating getting into position and taking 4 more to get down. My wedge play has been costing me 6-8 shots a round all summer. Now playing to leave 150 yards in with 7-iron and started to score much better while at the same working really hard on the range to get at least a functional wedge game going.

 

I've found that sometimes one can try to be too precise when staring down a scoring shot and create all kinds of havoc for themselves. One of the best things I did for my game this year was stop looking at the GPS app for any approach shots. I was focusing so much on the number that I was forgetting to just target focus and swing.

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> @Bad9 said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green. So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> > Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> > I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a good ball striker but not shoot low scores. Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

>

> I have never seen a 10 handicap that is “on or next to every green”. I’ve never seen a scratch player that would fit that description and I think most plus handicaps and pros would have a hard time fitting it.

 

Well, if a player is not on or next to every green then where are they ? I mean why wouldn't a decent ball striker have his/her ball next to a par 3 green in one shot, or next to a par 4 green in two shots ?

If not next to the green ,where would their ball lay ? These are not beginning players or hackers who duff shots.

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @agolf1 said:

>

> >

> > Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

>

> Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

> that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

Your original post said a 10-handicapper hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. If they are shooting 75 it's because they have a scratch/+ index level short game. That does not make them a good ball-striker. They are as you say adequate (in ball-striking).

 

I would agree that good is 10+ GIR per round. But just think about what you are saying; someone hits 12 GIR, never gets up and down (0% -- literally never), and has to three-putt twice to to average 80. Two-three putts per 12 greens isn't good but it's not crazy bad (although this also implies no birdies for someone that is supposedly hitting it great). Never getting up and down is not reasonably though. The good-ball striker would have to be leaving every miss in a jail spot, which is a bit surprising if in fact they are a good ball-striker. Anyone that can swing a club to this degree (some decent athletic motions and hand-eye coordination) has to be able to get up and down at least 20% of the time or so.

 

The numbers just don't make sense in my view. That being said, the difference (on score) in irons (either way) is probably like a shot for this range of player so whatever...

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> @agolf1 said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> >

> > >

> > > Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

> >

> > Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

> > that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

> Your original post said a 10-handicapper hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. If they are shooting 75 it's because they have a scratch/+ index level short game. That does not make them a good ball-striker. They are as you say adequate (in ball-striking).

>

> I would agree that good is 10+ GIR per round. But just think about what you are saying; someone hits 12 GIR, never gets up and down (0% -- literally never), and has to three-putt twice to to average 80. Two-three putts per 12 greens isn't good but it's not crazy bad (although this also implies no birdies for someone that is supposedly hitting it great). Never getting up and down is not reasonably though. The good-ball striker would have to be leaving every miss in a jail spot, which is a bit surprising if in fact they are a good ball-striker. Anyone that can swing a club to this degree (some decent athletic motions and hand-eye coordination) has to be able to get up and down at least 20% of the time or so.

>

> The numbers just don't make sense in my view. That being said, the difference (on score) in irons (either way) is probably like a shot for this range of player so whatever...

 

 

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

> > >

> > > Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

> > > that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

> > Your original post said a 10-handicapper hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. If they are shooting 75 it's because they have a scratch/+ index level short game. That does not make them a good ball-striker. They are as you say adequate (in ball-striking).

> >

> > I would agree that good is 10+ GIR per round. But just think about what you are saying; someone hits 12 GIR, never gets up and down (0% -- literally never), and has to three-putt twice to to average 80. Two-three putts per 12 greens isn't good but it's not crazy bad (although this also implies no birdies for someone that is supposedly hitting it great). Never getting up and down is not reasonably though. The good-ball striker would have to be leaving every miss in a jail spot, which is a bit surprising if in fact they are a good ball-striker. Anyone that can swing a club to this degree (some decent athletic motions and hand-eye coordination) has to be able to get up and down at least 20% of the time or so.

> >

> > The numbers just don't make sense in my view. That being said, the difference (on score) in irons (either way) is probably like a shot for this range of player so whatever...

>

>

 

Chipping, pitching, bunker play, and certainly putting, require good nerves, a sense of touch etc... that few players have. In contrast, striking tee to green shots is relatively easy.

And while good ball strikers don't often short side themselves (or leave other challenging type up and downs), even the most routine up and down is not easy. For example, a player misses a green 5 feet right of the green hole high right leaving himself/herself a 35 foot chip shot to the hole. For him/her to make par they need to chip the ball within 6 to 8 feet of the hole (few players get their chip shots that close) and then make the 7 foot putt.

It is common for a player who misses 6 greens during a round to not convert one up and down. This is why so many collegiate players , amateurs competing in their city and county amateur tournaments, etc... score 78 instead of 72

Remember, Tiger did not win 82 tournaments by hitting all the greens. He won his tournaments by getting the ball up and down when he missed greens.

Cleveland TL310 10.5* driver

Cleveland HB Launcher 15* 3-wood

Srixon H65  19* 3 hybrid and 22* 4 hybrid

Mizuno MP63 5 thru 9-iron

Cleveland RTX 48-52-56-64 wedges

Scotty Cameron Classic III putter

 

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

> > >

> > > Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

> > > that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

> > Your original post said a 10-handicapper hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. If they are shooting 75 it's because they have a scratch/+ index level short game. That does not make them a good ball-striker. They are as you say adequate (in ball-striking).

> >

> > I would agree that good is 10+ GIR per round. But just think about what you are saying; someone hits 12 GIR, never gets up and down (0% -- literally never), and has to three-putt twice to to average 80. Two-three putts per 12 greens isn't good but it's not crazy bad (although this also implies no birdies for someone that is supposedly hitting it great). Never getting up and down is not reasonably though. The good-ball striker would have to be leaving every miss in a jail spot, which is a bit surprising if in fact they are a good ball-striker. Anyone that can swing a club to this degree (some decent athletic motions and hand-eye coordination) has to be able to get up and down at least 20% of the time or so.

> >

> > The numbers just don't make sense in my view. That being said, the difference (on score) in irons (either way) is probably like a shot for this range of player so whatever...

>

>

 

I think you nailed it this time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LOL

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

> > > >

> > > > Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

> > > > that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

> > > Your original post said a 10-handicapper hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. If they are shooting 75 it's because they have a scratch/+ index level short game. That does not make them a good ball-striker. They are as you say adequate (in ball-striking).

> > >

> > > I would agree that good is 10+ GIR per round. But just think about what you are saying; someone hits 12 GIR, never gets up and down (0% -- literally never), and has to three-putt twice to to average 80. Two-three putts per 12 greens isn't good but it's not crazy bad (although this also implies no birdies for someone that is supposedly hitting it great). Never getting up and down is not reasonably though. The good-ball striker would have to be leaving every miss in a jail spot, which is a bit surprising if in fact they are a good ball-striker. Anyone that can swing a club to this degree (some decent athletic motions and hand-eye coordination) has to be able to get up and down at least 20% of the time or so.

> > >

> > > The numbers just don't make sense in my view. That being said, the difference (on score) in irons (either way) is probably like a shot for this range of player so whatever...

> >

> >

>

> Chipping, pitching, bunker play, and certainly putting, require good nerves, a sense of touch etc... that few players have. In contrast, striking tee to green shots is relatively easy.

> And while good ball strikers don't often short side themselves (or leave other challenging type up and downs), even the most routine up and down is not easy. For example, a player misses a green 5 feet right of the green hole high right leaving himself/herself a 35 foot chip shot to the hole. For him/her to make par they need to chip the ball within 6 to 8 feet of the hole (few players get their chip shots that close) and then make the 7 foot putt.

> It is common for a player who misses 6 greens during a round to not convert one up and down. This is why so many collegiate players , amateurs competing in their city and county amateur tournaments, etc... score 78 instead of 72

> Remember, Tiger did not win 82 tournaments by hitting all the greens. He won his tournaments by getting the ball up and down when he missed greens.

 

It's not common for someone to never get up and down. An 8-10 handicap probably gets up and down 30% of the time.

 

If your point is you can be an adequate ball stirker, play blades, and not have it be the end of the world (or a GI iron wouldn't change much) then fine. But these people are not good ball strikers.

 

Have a good day.

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> @Fairway14 said:

> My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about **a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green.** So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. **But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75.** My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a **good ball striker but not shoot low scores**. **Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82**. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

 

Every 10 handicapper in your group is either on or next to EVERY green ?

 

To quote the late great Harry Morgan, better(?) know as the inimitable Colonel Sherman T. Potter,,,,,,,, "MULE FRITTERS !!!"

 

The 10 handicapper can shoot 75 ? Now there's a newsflash. The question is how OFTEN can he do it. Answer is not very since he's a 10 HANDICAPPER.

 

The majority of the comments in this thread are about "excellent/scratch" ballstrikers, NOT "good" ballstrikers.

 

That's enough,,,,,,,,,, I'm tired now,,,,,,,,,,,,

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> @nsxguy said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about **a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green.** So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> > Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. **But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75.** My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> > I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a **good ball striker but not shoot low scores**. **Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82**. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

>

> Every 10 handicapper in your group is either on or next to EVERY green ?

 

Yes, if not next to the green where else will a 10 handicap player's ball lay ? Again, a 10 handicap player is not a beginner or hacker who duffs shots.

 

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about **a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green.** So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> > > Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. **But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75.** My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> > > I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a **good ball striker but not shoot low scores**. **Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82**. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

> >

> > Every 10 handicapper in your group is either on or next to EVERY green ?

>

> **Yes, if not next to the green where else will a 10 handicap player's ball lay** ? Again, a 10 handicap player is not a beginner or hacker who duffs shots.

>

 

That's just good comedy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LMAO

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> @chippa13 said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > @lawsonman said:

> > > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > > @Mikepaul said:

> > > > > > If you can find the centre of the face with regularity you can play blades, shafts can compensate for lower swing speed (ie 80mph) . In addition, unless you like to shape, left right, high/low straight, left and right - don’t play blades. Large Cavity back irons can produce straight shots.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don’t use handicap as a reference to play blades because some Mid-handicappers are flushers but are diabolical at chip and putt activities . If Shane lowery played these shots on their behalf they would play off scratch. I recently played wit a 13 handicap who carries his driver 320 with ease, flushes irons but is petrified of a 2 foot put. Yes plays blades and they suit him.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I had a dollar for every higher handicapper I’ve heard of on here who is a scratch level ball striker but doesn’t have a short game...

> > > >

> > > > Same could be said for everyone who says they're 320 straight down the middle...?

> > >

> > > The math of being a scratch ballstriker and have a 13-15 index is almost impossible to fathom. Your short game would have to be so bad that anyone actually having that skillset would quit golf out of frustration

> > >

> > > I agree though you see a lot of posts where guys say they are long and straight. They're can't be THAT many guys who hit it 300 and straight every time either

> >

> > I’m nowhere near a scratch-level ball striker...but my wedge shots from 100 yards in have been so bad recently that I have considered quitting. Stupid and frustrating getting into position and taking 4 more to get down. My wedge play has been costing me 6-8 shots a round all summer. Now playing to leave 150 yards in with 7-iron and started to score much better while at the same working really hard on the range to get at least a functional wedge game going.

>

> I've found that sometimes one can try to be too precise when staring down a scoring shot and create all kinds of havoc for themselves. One of the best things I did for my game this year was stop looking at the GPS app for any approach shots. I was focusing so much on the number that I was forgetting to just target focus and swing.

 

It’s almost the yips and you’re right, it’s down to overthinking the shot. Trying to clear your head of swing thoughts when you’re in a rut with any type of shot is hard. I shot 91-93 in our club championship and came close to throwing it in. Over the next couple of days, I read Bob Rotella’s ‘Your 15th Club’ and shot 76 the following weekend.

 

My problem is maintaining that level of ‘not thinking,’ focusing on the target and just letting the shot go. I have hit hundreds of wedge shots over the last month or so at the range while our course has been closed due to bad weather. I’m hoping that the break from the course will break the pattern of play I’ve got into and I can just focus on getting that good strike ?

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Golf seems to be one of those activities that lends itself to Zen-like qualities. Or so I think, with my lack of knowledge of Zen. :)

 

The phrase that seems to me to best apply is "effort through non effort." It's something I use with the swing, primarily. Interestingly, I found it applies to the bowling arm swing, as well. Apparently some of the baseball tendencies I developed in the past conflict with that. LOL

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I feel like this thread comes up at least 2-3 times a year and the same 20 page long discussion ensues. I personally don't get the obsession with HC vs what clubs you play, especially because a lot of data shows that neither is exclusively mutual. I'm in the opinion that you should be playing the longest clubs you can get, while still making sure you have plenty of descent angle and spin. However, a factor that can't be over looked is how your swing and the ground interact. It's been apparent to me that players who have a more shallow in to out path kind of swing will benefit from a little bit thinner of a sole... and you tend to see that more with player's clubs (not necessarily blades) vs the GI and SGI clubs with thick soles.

 

So regardless of your index, how you strike the ball and your speed is probably the #1 and #2 factors when deciding on an iron head. If you're an extremely fast player who is very shallow into the ball with your irons.... but you're a 10HC because you stink at chipping and you struggle keeping your face and path married up (but you still strike the ball near the middle most of the time) you still may be a prime candidate for "blade like" irons.

 

I recently bought the new MP-20's after demo-ing them because I honestly felt they were not that hard to hit. I hit them directly against my P770's and I saw miss hits that were about equal in their distance from the center (or at least what felt like it) losing similar yardage. The biggest difference I saw was Mp20's spun a little more over all, and on thin strikes they would spin a lot more. I don't mind this to be honest and I welcome the extra spin which will add some stability to my flight and help me fight the low spin over draw that I tend to see.

 

Then there's always just the fact that for probably 99% of us here, golf is just a hobby. If playing a blade or blade like iron makes you happy then go for it. I played Miura blades from dec 18 to end of march this year, and after switching to 770s, I did not see some magical improvement in my scores. Even though the Miura were arguably much less forgiving, I feel like they got through the turf more efficiently and were better out of the rough, too. It's also personal to me because a lot of my strokes that I give up come more from bad tee shots than anything else. My worst rounds are days when I'm struggling with driver.... and my best days are when I'm putting my tee shots where I want.

 

 

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> @Fairway14 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > My regular group is 16 to 24 players ranging in skill level from pro to about **a 10 handicap. Every one of them is either on or next to every green.** So the "differentiating factor" for scoring is always chipping-pitching-bunker play and putting.

> > > Sure the 0 handicap and, or, pro hits more greens and has shorter putts for birdie. **But the 10 handicap hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75.** My observation is that an adequate tee to green game is relatively easy. But it is very rare to find players who consistently get the ball up and down . Any player who does is likely no higher than a 2 or 3 handicap.

> > > I don't understand all the comments in this thread questioning how someone can be a **good ball striker but not shoot low scores**. **Check out any city or county scratch tournament and most of the players either hit the greens or are within 10 yards of every green in regulation, yet half the field shoots high scores of 77 to 82**. This is because getting the ball up and down is a lot harder than having a decent tee to green game.

> >

> > Every 10 handicapper in your group is either on or next to EVERY green ?

>

> Yes, if not next to the green where else will a 10 handicap player's ball lay ? Again, a 10 handicap player is not a beginner or hacker who duffs shots.

>

 

I'm sitting at about an 8-handicap and I can tell you I do not resemble the ultra-consistent guy you're describing. If I managed to get to the fringe of every green I'd be shooting in the 70's every single time out and I'd probably be within a few strokes of scratch.

 

As an 8-handicap I average 7-8 GIR a round. My bad rounds are in the high 80s and sometimes I still shoot 90 or 92 if it's just a disaster.

 

I do hit the ball OB. I do get blocked out when I miss fairways. I do catch my shots fat and end up well short sometimes. I manage 10 GIR on my _**best**_ days. Again, my average is around 7-8 GIR.

 

In fact, there are stats out there linking GIR and other such stats to handicap. And those are based on thousands of rounds with golfers of all abilities.

 

If I was able to hit half the GIR and was pin-high on the rest, I'd be twice the player I am. In short, not being able to get to the green in the desired number of shots is one of the biggest reasons I'm an 8 handicap.

 

Just my experience of course.

 

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Here's one source (The Grint - a relatively popular phone app to track scoring stats). It says that players in the 6-10 handicap index range typically hit 37% of GIR. Which is just under 7 GIR per 18. Nowhere near 10 GIR, and astronomically far from 12 GIR.

u6k8qiniyf4a.png

 

(This is from 2016 data. Google "GIR Handicap" and you'll find this report very easily along with multiple other sources citing very similar data to this, so this is not an outlier report.)

 

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> @agolf1 said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now take two guys that each hit 6 greens and two-putt all of them. The first guy gets up and down 2/3 of the time and averages a 76. The 2nd guy gets up and down 25% of the time and averages 81. I would argue that neither of them are good ball-strikers. Both are keeping the ball on the course and avoiding disasters. One is shooting good scores because of short-game. The second is not an equally skilled ball-striker to those who typically shoot mid-70s but just has a bad short game.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, averaging 6 greens is not a "good ball striker". I say a "good ball striker" averages 10 to 11 greens per round. There are lots of players who average 12 greens per round yet their scoring average is about 80. The reason being

> > > > > that for the 6 or 7 greens per round they miss, they do not get it up and down for par. My observation is that this type of player is fairly common. The bottom line is that it's just not that hard to have an adequate tee to green game. But to be a skilled at green side chipping-pitching-bunker play requires nerves and a sense of touch that is rare.

> > > > Your original post said a 10-handicapper hits it well enough tee to green to shoot 75. If they are shooting 75 it's because they have a scratch/+ index level short game. That does not make them a good ball-striker. They are as you say adequate (in ball-striking).

> > > >

> > > > I would agree that good is 10+ GIR per round. But just think about what you are saying; someone hits 12 GIR, never gets up and down (0% -- literally never), and has to three-putt twice to to average 80. Two-three putts per 12 greens isn't good but it's not crazy bad (although this also implies no birdies for someone that is supposedly hitting it great). Never getting up and down is not reasonably though. The good-ball striker would have to be leaving every miss in a jail spot, which is a bit surprising if in fact they are a good ball-striker. Anyone that can swing a club to this degree (some decent athletic motions and hand-eye coordination) has to be able to get up and down at least 20% of the time or so.

> > > >

> > > > The numbers just don't make sense in my view. That being said, the difference (on score) in irons (either way) is probably like a shot for this range of player so whatever...

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Chipping, pitching, bunker play, and certainly putting, require good nerves, a sense of touch etc... that few players have. In contrast, striking tee to green shots is relatively easy.

> > And while good ball strikers don't often short side themselves (or leave other challenging type up and downs), even the most routine up and down is not easy. For example, a player misses a green 5 feet right of the green hole high right leaving himself/herself a 35 foot chip shot to the hole. For him/her to make par they need to chip the ball within 6 to 8 feet of the hole (few players get their chip shots that close) and then make the 7 foot putt.

> > It is common for a player who misses 6 greens during a round to not convert one up and down. This is why so many collegiate players , amateurs competing in their city and county amateur tournaments, etc... score 78 instead of 72

> > Remember, Tiger did not win 82 tournaments by hitting all the greens. He won his tournaments by getting the ball up and down when he missed greens.

>

> It's not common for someone to never get up and down. An 8-10 handicap probably gets up and down 30% of the time.

>

> If your point is you can be an adequate ball stirker, play blades, and not have it be the end of the world (or a GI iron wouldn't change much) then fine. But these people are not good ball strikers.

>

> Have a good day.

 

I can live with this. Makes sense to me.

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Isn't necessarily a handicap related decision. If one "truthfully" can find the center of the club face most of the time, blades are fine. I've known a few low single digit handicappers, myself included that can't hit a blade more consistently than a "thin soled" cavity back. Low handicap is more related to short game ability than ball striking. It is possible to hit line drives, close to the green on every hole & shoot even par.

 

Comment is made in relation to irons...excluding wedges.

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I think the important point here is LOW single digit HC vs scratch. Scratch gets up and down constantly. No, they don't have to be an elite ballstriker. These unicorn 15hc that are crisping every long iron into the green or pin high but can't putt or chip don't exist en mass.

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> @No5somes said:

> Isn't necessarily a handicap related decision. If one "truthfully" can find the center of the club face most of the time, blades are fine. I've known a few low single digit handicappers, myself included that can't hit a blade more consistently than a "thin soled" cavity back. Low handicap is more related to short game ability than ball striking. It is possible to hit line drives, close to the green on every hole & shoot even par.

>

> Comment is made in relation to irons...excluding wedges.

 

If one is hitting "close to the green on every hole" and shooting even par then they got up and down 100% of the time with only 18 putts. I'm not much of a betting man but I'd put the mortgage on that never happening.

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> @iceman1118 said:

> No handicap is necessary. How often do you strike the ball well? Here is a perfect example of this nonsense; last week I was out with my neighbor, former Euro Tour Pro, who has a set of MP-4 blades with PX 6.0 shafts. I game the 2019 P790s with C Taper 130 X. He is a 0 handicap (he does not play too much anymore, otherwise he would easily be a +3 or +4), I am a 7. We were standing on a par 3, 155 yards. I hit my 9 iron pin high, decent strike. I picked up his 9 iron "for science" and had same strike and divot and landed 2 yards short of my first shot. It's a mental thing in my opinion. Can I play blades regularly, absolutely. Do I have to? No. A super game improvement iron will not make you magically hit the ball straight. A blade will not make you chunk every shot. It's perception, plain and simple. No matter what club you are holding from driver to putter, you need to put a good swing on the ball. My two cents.

 

This ^ is the truth. Which is why good ballstrikers often find the GI club is a hindrance . Even if just mentally. You hit the 790 ( for example ) and you

think “ can’t miss with these things. “ And then you do , and your miss is still penal. And then you start thinking “ if these aren’t helping. Why play them”. Then comes the time when you need to hit that little half PW that checks , or the low fade 6 iron in the wind. And the 790 doesn’t do it as well. And then you think “ not only do these not help me , they hurt me “. Speaking for a person who hits it solid.

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Honestly, this isn't that big of a deal. A set of good, classic blades with S300 is, without exaggeration, $50-$60. Often with a return policy.

 

If you want to play blades, just grab a set and play them for fun when you feel like it.

 

Plus, there's a wonderful and perverse pleasure to playing a set of irons where you paid more for the replacement grips than for the head+shaft. : D

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> @chippa13 said:

> > @No5somes said:

> > Isn't necessarily a handicap related decision. If one "truthfully" can find the center of the club face most of the time, blades are fine. I've known a few low single digit handicappers, myself included that can't hit a blade more consistently than a "thin soled" cavity back. Low handicap is more related to short game ability than ball striking. It is possible to hit line drives, close to the green on every hole & shoot even par.

> >

> > Comment is made in relation to irons...excluding wedges.

>

> If one is hitting "close to the green on every hole" and shooting even par then they got up and down 100% of the time with only 18 putts. I'm not much of a betting man but I'd put the mortgage on that never happening.

 

I regularly play with a guy who shots even par without hitting more than few greens in regulation. The course we play together has small greens. He gets it up and down from between 2 and 10 feet off the greens all day long, usually leaving himself about 2 to 5 feet for the par putt. His scoring average is in the 71-75 range and he probably averages 5 to 7 greens per round. I've been with him when he shot 71 only hitting two greens that day.

  • Like 1

Cleveland TL310 10.5* driver

Cleveland HB Launcher 15* 3-wood

Srixon H65  19* 3 hybrid and 22* 4 hybrid

Mizuno MP63 5 thru 9-iron

Cleveland RTX 48-52-56-64 wedges

Scotty Cameron Classic III putter

 

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