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Time to Make Disqualification Claim


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Well done to Mookieb10 for bringing this forward, it has allowed you (and some other readers) to get a lot more familiar with a few rules.

 

The most tricky issue discussed is when is the time limit for seeking a ruling when you learn some new information that indicates an opponent should have been penalised if a request for a ruling was made in a sufficiently timely manner. @Halebopp at *7 laid out the relevant rules in thorough manner. Some further points are worth spelling out.

1) A key issue is whether the result of the match is final. This is a function of the terms of the competition, exactly how and when do the combatants provide their understanding of the match result to the Committee/Pro/whom or whatever is the reporting mechanism. Normally the obligation is to provide the result ASAP to a particular location/person. Assuming that occurred in your case, then the match result is defined as final. However, if that defined reporting mechanism had not yet occurred then any claim made would have to be considered by the Committee. And on your facts, assuming they were proved to the Committee, the opponents would be DQed. But if the match result was final, different considerations come into play.

2) Assuming the result was final, on your facts, if you were to seek a ruling (as is your right), the Committee needs to test the conditions identified in 20.3b(3), the key one being whether the opponent knew of his handicap breach before the match result was final. If the opponent was unaware of the breach, the Committee will give no ruling and the match result stands. This process does not change even if it is the opponent that realizes his breach and goes to the Committee to seek a ruling after the match result was final.

 

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So here is a hilarious update on this situation... PLEASE LET THIS BE A LESSON IF YOU’RE READING THIS. KNOW BOTH THE USGA RULES AND THE TOURNAMENT RULES.

 

I honestly appreciate everyone who chimed in. Like everything in life, it’s gratifying when you here someone agree with you, and frustrating when not, but for me to be able to pop up a question, and get 30 replies in 24 hours, is something I cannot thank you for enough. All of you.

 

Update: I did not and will not make a claim for the handicap violation. I am quite a spiteful man when put in this situation, but after speaking to my Dad this morning, he said he refused to win in such a manner. He is a wonderful man and has given me much more than a golf match victory could.

 

Double Hilarious Update: It seems that ALL FOUR PLAYERS, played to a handicap which granted more strokes than they should have gotten. This yearlong tournament was supposed to be a 90% handicap event and every player played to 100% handicaps, which resulted in both opponents getting one extra stroke each, myself getting an extra stroke, and my dad setting 3 extra strokes. Incredible. Absolutely incredible.

 

Another crazy rules issue that I thought of for you rules guys:

In reading the rules of this event, Post match, it states that the tournament is to start May 1, and each round is supposed to be completed by the end of the month, with the next round starting on the first of the following month. The rules state that no matter which day of the month you play the match, you 1st of the month index is the one that should be used. The rules also state that should a match not be completed by the final day of the month, a computer generated coin flip will determine the winner, with NO EXCEPTIONS, should a match not be completed.

Well this was the fourth round match. It should have been completed by August 31, using august 1 handicap revisions. We played October 13, using our current handicaps. So here are the questions.

1) should the match have been allowed to be played if everyone involved agreed to a continuance?

2) which handicap revision should have been in play if it wasn’t made clear? August 1? Current? Other?

3) what would the match result be if all four players were disqualified?

 

 

 

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> @chippa13 said:

> I wonder if the 2 vs 3 "handicap" is more a factor of that player's index versus what his handicap was calculated for the tees they were playing.

 

Spot on. Sorry, I try to bring the issues up as accurately as possible, but you are correct. The inaccuracy was in applying the correct number of handicap strokes taken, not in inaccurately reporting the handicap index itself.

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I think the organizers of this event, like most people in charge of local leagues, deserve a severe flogging when they do inane things like setting up tournaments that drag on for more than three weeks amongst other insane things they do.

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> @Mookieb10 said:

> I’m going to study this darn rule book inside and out. As hard as I studied for the bar exam all them years ago. Knowing the rules seems to be like owning an AR-15. Some jerks use them to commit heinous acts against people while other own one so they don’t get robbed while asleep and in bed.

 

I don't know about comparing golf to rules to a modern sporting rifle but people here know and study the rules extensively and are happy to teach and help others lean the rules.

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I don't even know if you need to know the rules. Just know how to Google. Anything I'm unsure of I will Google right away. Certainly don't concede defeat on another hole ever again on something you don't know about unless you still have a flip phone.

 

Id say check in with the pro as well, but they usually know less than average players do

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If the match had an August 31st deadline and you didn’t play it until October, both of your teams should have been DQ IMO.

 

Our season long match play matches used to drag into the new months. The guys on our committee used to hate that, ran for office, and now run things. If you don’t get your match in by the deadline, they are sitting there on the deadline, at dusk, with a coin ready to fill in the bracket. A few teams were pissed to know they lost without being there. They had A MONTH to play the match. They are lucky to get a 50/50 chance of advancing.

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> @Mookieb10 said:

> So here is a hilarious update on this situation... PLEASE LET THIS BE A LESSON IF YOU’RE READING THIS. KNOW BOTH THE USGA RULES AND THE TOURNAMENT RULES.

>

> I honestly appreciate everyone who chimed in. Like everything in life, it’s gratifying when you here someone agree with you, and frustrating when not, but for me to be able to pop up a question, and get 30 replies in 24 hours, is something I cannot thank you for enough. All of you.

>

> Update: I did not and will not make a claim for the handicap violation. I am quite a spiteful man when put in this situation, but after speaking to my Dad this morning, he said he refused to win in such a manner. He is a wonderful man and has given me much more than a golf match victory could.

>

> Double Hilarious Update: It seems that ALL FOUR PLAYERS, played to a handicap which granted more strokes than they should have gotten. This yearlong tournament was supposed to be a 90% handicap event and every player played to 100% handicaps, which resulted in both opponents getting one extra stroke each, myself getting an extra stroke, and my dad setting 3 extra strokes. Incredible. Absolutely incredible.

>

> Another crazy rules issue that I thought of for you rules guys:

> In reading the rules of this event, Post match, it states that the tournament is to start May 1, and each round is supposed to be completed by the end of the month, with the next round starting on the first of the following month. The rules state that no matter which day of the month you play the match, you 1st of the month index is the one that should be used. The rules also state that should a match not be completed by the final day of the month, a computer generated coin flip will determine the winner, with NO EXCEPTIONS, should a match not be completed.

> Well this was the fourth round match. It should have been completed by August 31, using august 1 handicap revisions. We played October 13, using our current handicaps. So here are the questions.

> 1) should the match have been allowed to be played if everyone involved agreed to a continuance?

> 2) which handicap revision should have been in play if it wasn’t made clear? August 1? Current? Other?

> 3) what would the match result be if all four players were disqualified?

>

>

>

My reactions to the new questions are:

1) and 2) are matters to be answered by the Tournament Committee rather than the Rule book.

3) is not actually applicable to the circumstances you present, opponents both overstated hcp by 1, you by 1 and Dad by 3. Rule 3.2c(1) first dot point is the guide. Only the Dad overstatement actually impacts the number of strokes he gets, the opponents overstatement doesn't affect the (net) strokes they get because you also overstated by 1. So it would only be your team DQed if a timely claim was made.

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> @hahanice said:

> I don't even know if you need to know the rules. Just know how to Google. Anything I'm unsure of I will Google right away. Certainly don't concede defeat on another hole ever again on something you don't know about unless you still have a flip phone.

>

> Id say check in with the pro as well, but they usually know less than average players do

 

You do have to know the rules if your playing in any kind of formal competition. Download the app and enable the expert mode so you can see the full rules. You don't have to memorize them by heart but you should have a solid grasp of the actual playing rules. Read through the interpretations. That way when you do have something your not sure, you can find it quickly.

 

Never trust Google.

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> @SNIPERBBB said:

> > @hahanice said:

> > I don't even know if you need to know the rules. Just know how to Google. Anything I'm unsure of I will Google right away. Certainly don't concede defeat on another hole ever again on something you don't know about unless you still have a flip phone.

> >

> > Id say check in with the pro as well, but they usually know less than average players do

>

> You do have to know the rules if your playing in any kind of formal competition. Download the app and enable the expert mode so you can see the full rules. You don't have to memorize them by heart but you should have a solid grasp of the actual playing rules. Read through the interpretations. That way when you do have something your not sure, you can find it quickly.

>

>** Never trust Google.**

Amen, Google often will send you to an outdated Rule.

 

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

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> @Mookieb10 said:

> I’m going to study this darn rule book inside and out. As hard as I studied for the bar exam all them years ago. Knowing the rules seems to be like owning an AR-15. Some jerks use them to commit heinous acts against people while other own one so they don’t get robbed while asleep and in bed.

 

Please remain open to the possibility that should you decide to seriously study the rules, you may come to the conclusion (as I have) that people who follow them are not the problem, no matter how technical these people get. It's the people who don't follow them that have the potential to commit heinous acts during a competition.

 

It's my philosophy that if someone "calls me out" on something I wasn't aware of, he has given me the gift of knowledge, not committed a heinous act. I'll be better prepared for the future.

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> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Mookieb10 said:

> > I’m going to study this darn rule book inside and out. As hard as I studied for the bar exam all them years ago. Knowing the rules seems to be like owning an AR-15. Some jerks use them to commit heinous acts against people while other own one so they don’t get robbed while asleep and in bed.

>

> Please remain open to the possibility that should you decide to seriously study the rules, you may come to the conclusion (as I have) that people who follow them are not the problem, no matter how technical these people get. It's the people who don't follow them that have the potential to commit heinous acts during a competition.

>

> It's my philosophy that if someone "calls me out" on something I wasn't aware of, he has given me the gift of knowledge, not committed a heinous act. I'll be better prepared for the future.

 

Hi Sawgrass,

 

I appreciate you taking your time to reply to this thread. “Heinous act” was certainly hyperbolic on my part. Short of assault, there may be nothing that can happen on a course that would rise to that level.

I appreciate you sentiments in this reply and will certainly keep your sentiments in mind.

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> @Mookieb10 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Mookieb10 said:

> > > I’m going to study this darn rule book inside and out. As hard as I studied for the bar exam all them years ago. Knowing the rules seems to be like owning an AR-15. Some jerks use them to commit heinous acts against people while other own one so they don’t get robbed while asleep and in bed.

> >

> > Please remain open to the possibility that should you decide to seriously study the rules, you may come to the conclusion (as I have) that people who follow them are not the problem, no matter how technical these people get. It's the people who don't follow them that have the potential to commit heinous acts during a competition.

> >

> > It's my philosophy that if someone "calls me out" on something I wasn't aware of, he has given me the gift of knowledge, not committed a heinous act. I'll be better prepared for the future.

>

> Hi Sawgrass,

>

> I appreciate you taking your time to reply to this thread. “Heinous act” was certainly hyperbolic on my part. Short of assault, there may be nothing that can happen on a course that would rise to that level.

> I appreciate you sentiments in this reply and will certainly keep your sentiments in mind.

 

You, sir, are impressively civil. We could use more of that around here!

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"Double Hilarious Update: It seems that ALL FOUR PLAYERS, played to a handicap which granted more strokes than they should have gotten. This yearlong tournament was supposed to be a 90% handicap event and every player played to 100% handicaps, which resulted in both opponents getting one extra stroke each, myself getting an extra stroke, and my dad setting 3 extra strokes. Incredible. Absolutely incredible."

 

I don't really understand this.

1) How were handicaps decided?

2) How were handicaps applied? Meaning, when you went to go play your match, how did you know what the handicap of each player was?

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  • 2 weeks later...

> @larrybud said:

> "Double Hilarious Update: It seems that ALL FOUR PLAYERS, played to a handicap which granted more strokes than they should have gotten. This yearlong tournament was supposed to be a 90% handicap event and every player played to 100% handicaps, which resulted in both opponents getting one extra stroke each, myself getting an extra stroke, and my dad setting 3 extra strokes. Incredible. Absolutely incredible."

>

> I don't really understand this.

> 1) How were handicaps decided?

> 2) How were handicaps applied? Meaning, when you went to go play your match, how did you know what the handicap of each player was?

 

 

 

the assistant pro prepared a scorecard for the match using our current handicaps. Those handicaps were calculated by taking the handicap index and applying the slope from the green tees. (At least I believe that’s how it’s done). And then whatever your course index is, you take 90% of that. Sometimes the 90% makes a difference, sometimes it doesn’t.

So we just played off the handicaps that were on the scorecard prepared by the asst. pro. Since it was a members event, I could easily check the handicap index of all the competitors because all member’s indexes are posted at all times on the cork board.

 

Hope that helps.

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