Change from forged/blade to big game improvers ... Did it improve your handicap?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @revanant said:

> So, I was looking at this review of the new Titleist irons, and it came with ball data for all five in the hands of the tester. The results with the MB are pretty consistent, while the T200 and T300 have some very low spin shots that don’t stop.

>

> The sweet spot for this tester was the T100, as it had higher ballspeed without sacrificing descent or spin. But the MB looks like the second best of the bunch to me.

>

> https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/new-titleist-irons-t-series-620-series/3/

When you adjust for the loft differences, the T200/300 didn't fly any farther (shorter actually). The spin #'s would also be closer, maybe 300-800 RPMS lower depending on the exact reference point.

[dbleag]

Maybe the combo set is where more players need to be, with the switch-over at the #7 iron.

 

Best of both worlds?

[macnewma]

To answer the question, no it never improved my HDCP. I usually went to them when I got away from the game for a while and thought it would be easier. It never was. Then I would grab my old blades and it was just right and my HDCP would drop.

 

I presently play MP18 MBs 6-P and 4-5 SC. I've played Eye2s, G15s, S55s and a bunch of other Mizuno blades. I've always played my best with MP grind Mizunos. I believe it most attributable to the swing and release I developed as a kid being honed using MP-14 blades. I never did well with wider soled GI clubs. For lower single digit HDCP players, turf interaction is more important than perimeter weighting, especially with short irons.

 

With that said, I do think there is something to be gained from deeper CG and more perimeter weighting in the 3-5 irons. My miss with the short irons is almost always either path or face related (or a bit fat). I'll hit a straight pull right on the screws. GI irons do nothing for me. The MBs will give me the same directional miss, but tend to show a more consistent distance.

 

With long irons, due to the shallower AoA and more direct impact, I want the forgiveness and care less about turf interaction. 4mm off of the sweet spot with a 4i might be 5yds vs 5ft with a 9i.

 

It is no coincidence that the guys on tour use some form of GI in the long irons now. Even guys who hit great long irons like Rory, Tiger, JT etc

 

I'm planning on demoing the MP20 HMB in the long irons soon. When I'm 100pct on my game, I can stripe my long irons, but if it is even a slight off day, my 4i distance starts to fall back to my 5i distance and becomes inconsistent. I think the 4i in the HMB might be perfect for me.

 

The other piece of the pie is swing speed. With my swing speed, I naturally hit a high ball. If I had a lower SS I'd probably want a bit lower deeper CG to increase spin and height. As I get older, at some point I will probably need a bit more of help with height and it will make sense to switch to something more GI through the 7 or 8.

[DMAIC]

For me I tend to focus more on my swing with less offset in my irons. I played blades when I was younger but after a long layoff I tried an SGI iron set with large amounts of offset and felt like I wasn't concentrating on putting a good swing on the ball, because I knew I could get away with poor execution. I went back to blades but just couldn't handle them at my age and my handicap suffered. I ended up getting a GI set with minimal offset and my HCDP is starting to improve.

[Tree Levino]

Pretty much no reason to play blades in long irons IMO. Though my anecdotal evidence tells me there is SOME help in shorter irons with a CB, I think almost any golfer of decent standard could play blades to an 8 iron. Better golfers down to 5 or 6.

 

[GDTBATH]

I’m a legit two handicap. I had a set of MP18’s. Loved to look at them and how they felt. I went to the JPx919 forged when they came out and never looked back. I’m a better player with them. I need the forgiveness. As beautiful as the blades are, I realized I’m just not good enough to play them.

[Tree Levino]

> @GDTBATH said:

> I’m a legit two handicap. I had a set of MP18’s. Loved to look at them and how they felt. I went to the JPx919 forged when they came out and never looked back. I’m a better player with them. I need the forgiveness. As beautiful as the blades are, I realized I’m just not good enough to play them.

 

The 20 HCs playing blades on here will tell you otherwise. The club head is smaller and it means you have to concentrate on hitting the ball. Duh.

[mahonie]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @GDTBATH said:

> > I’m a legit two handicap. I had a set of MP18’s. Loved to look at them and how they felt. I went to the JPx919 forged when they came out and never looked back. I’m a better player with them. I need the forgiveness. As beautiful as the blades are, I realized I’m just not good enough to play them.

>

> The 20 HCs playing blades on here will tell you otherwise. The club head is smaller and it means you have to concentrate on hitting the ball. Duh.

 

...says the 7 handicapper whose iron blade length is shorter than most modern MBs...double duh.

[longballjs]

I played titleist 962bs from the 90's to 2016. I had my second child, was playing tops once per week and almost no practice. I cant say that they AP2s improved my game or other things, but my handicap got to its lowest in 2016, up a few the last 3 years.

[Tree Levino]

> @mahonie said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @GDTBATH said:

> > > I’m a legit two handicap. I had a set of MP18’s. Loved to look at them and how they felt. I went to the JPx919 forged when they came out and never looked back. I’m a better player with them. I need the forgiveness. As beautiful as the blades are, I realized I’m just not good enough to play them.

> >

> > The 20 HCs playing blades on here will tell you otherwise. The club head is smaller and it means you have to concentrate on hitting the ball. Duh.

>

> ...says the 7 handicapper whose iron blade length is shorter than most modern MBs...double duh.

 

I'm trying to concentrate on the ball bud

[mahonie]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @GDTBATH said:

> > > > I’m a legit two handicap. I had a set of MP18’s. Loved to look at them and how they felt. I went to the JPx919 forged when they came out and never looked back. I’m a better player with them. I need the forgiveness. As beautiful as the blades are, I realized I’m just not good enough to play them.

> > >

> > > The 20 HCs playing blades on here will tell you otherwise. The club head is smaller and it means you have to concentrate on hitting the ball. Duh.

> >

> > ...says the 7 handicapper whose iron blade length is shorter than most modern MBs...double duh.

>

> I'm trying to concentrate on the ball bud

 

Just checking ;-)

[bunta]

i think go_f"spy" website has its next experiment. blades vs GI robot test. It'll prob light the whole industry on fire.

[jgpl]

I have played them all from MP33 to 710MB to Ping Eye 2 (and about 30 other sets in between) and it makes little difference to your HCP

In 1971 the ave club HCP was 18 and today it is still 18, even with all the great club and ball improvements since then

If you give an 18HCP a set of blades for a round and a GI set for a round there will be little difference in their scores - lowering your HCP is mostly achieved by getting and keeping the ball in play, improving your course management and improving your short game - none really dependant on blades vs GI

You can, however, have the best of both worlds today - clubs like the AP2, Callaway Apex, TM P790/760, Mizuno 919 Forged, Ping i210, etc. offer loads of forgiveness and play close (not the same), but close to a blade

I am now 53, getting a little slower and play less.

Recently I played several rounds with a set of P790's - wow, they performed brilliantly, I couldn't miss a green

Now they are out of the bag and my MP18's are back in

Why - snobbery, I love blades and even though I should change, and the P790 showed that, I won't....and that will be the view of many contributors on this website

[tsecor]

I just completed testing of a new SGI iron vs a Titlesit 712 CB. Here are my conclusions after hitting 1500+ balls and playing 15 rounds. Keep in mind these facts are for me only. a better ball striker may have different results.

The SGI irons off the tee are amazing. I gained 2+ club lengths (jacked lofts of course) and was able to use an iron instead of a 3w off the deck for a lot of my long iron shots. The new SGI irons fly high and long and are definitely easier to hit..in certain circumstances.

The main problem for me was hitting these fat soled clubs out of ANY significant rough. Especially around the greens where my vokey just cuts through the junk, the SGI wedges get caught up and its hard to play with any real feel. the "hot" face SGI is great for distance, but for feel, and delicate game play, its not for me.

So my conclusions are as follows. While you may gain distance and your hits off center will be less of a penalty, does it improve HDCP? Not for me it didn't. where I gained stroked off the tee or long irons into green, i lost in the short game....especially from any rough. Hitting a SGI 3I if definitely easier than more of a bladed club, the short irons in a blade type club is 100x more payable for me. This is why blended sets are so popular right now. To me the marketing terms GI or SGI are just that.....marketing....because i do not feel these clubs improve your overall game from a scoring perspective. They just make it easier to get a ball in the air. So, in relative terms, yes its "GI" but scoring and HDCP? Nah.

 

Id love to tests a "GI - SGI" driver though....like the Ping 410LST. From all accounts, this club is the real deal as far as game improvement is concerned.

[bigred90gt]

I am a 5 index. Fairly consistent ball striker. Not the best, not the worst. I’m not the longest player, but longer than most folks I play with, probably a bit below WRX average (and that’s not a stab at the claims on here, I used to be long by even wrx standards so I’m not one to doubt the claims on here as I know they exist in the wild).

 

I currently play ping i20 with recoil 110 F4 shafts (f4 is their stiff). Those same i20 previously had PX 6.0 and 5.5 before the recoils). I’ve had the recoils now for about 7 months. I recently bought a set of MP59 and shafted them with the same recoil 110 F4 shafts, cut to the same length, and weighted to the same swing weight. Lofts are the same except for 7-9 irons, which are 1 deg stronger in i20. So let’s call it an apples to apples comparison.

 

Even at a 5.9 index, I do not find the sweet spot enough to consistently hit my target with the MP59. To be fair, I only played a couple of rounds with them because of the poor results, so I didn’t give them a lot of time, but my already poor GIR (I average probably 40%, good rounds 60ish bad rounds as low as 15-20ish) was abysmal with the MP59. I think I hit 11% in one round and 22% in the other. That being said, my scores were in line with what I shoot regularly. My scoring average is 79.4 currently. If memory serves me, I think I shot 80-81 using them.

 

Do I think my index would change? Not significantly. It would probably vary by 1/2 point in either direction. Currently it varies by 1/4 point revision to revision depending on number of rounds (last revision went from 5.6 to 5.9) My long game and short game and putting keep my scores consistent. Whether I hit 50% GIR or 11% gir, my scores don’t vary much, but the important part for me is my enjoyment varies wildly. I enjoy the game far more hitting more gir and shooting the same score vs missing the greens and posting the same numbers. I don’t want to have to scramble on every hole for a par. I like the opportunity for birdies with a tap in par 2nd putt a lot more than having to chip out of our thick Bermuda rough to a manageable putting distance. I was consistently a club shorter with the MP59 and had a 2 way miss with mid-long irons. Short irons and PW were probably 1/2 club short, but mostly on line. The greens I typically play are fairly small, so even 1/2 club short was missing short side on front pins and typically short on middle pins. Short sided chips from thick deep Bermuda aren’t much fun.

 

When I was a 2-3 index and had a ton more clubhead speed, I played MP68 blades and loved them. I also practically lived at the course. 2-3 range sessions per week, range before every round, 4-5 rounds per week. I could middle those blades through 3i because I put in the work, and could hit any necessary trajectory and curvature with them because I practiced it. Now, I couldn’t tell you the last time had a true range session, I rarely hit balls even to warm up before a round, but I still play 2-4 rounds per week. My wife and I roll up to the tee box, I stretch while I wait for the fairway to clear, make a couple of practice swings then fire away.

 

Unless you have the time and desire to put in the work to have the ability to find the sweet spot in a set of blades (or even players cb), I would personally recommend playing something that gives you the best results and most GIR chances. More gir will equal lower scores for most players, unless you have a really good short game (which most mid-high index players do not). Some people get enjoyment out of grinding and practicing all the time. If that’s you, play whatever club you want and grind away. In my experience, it is much more enjoyable to have a good idea of where the ball is going and not having to rely solely on chipping/pitching to score than it is to hit/hope and and to grind out for or all day.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot answer the OP question directly. My switch from blades to i20 was born out of necessity. I had back surgery and lost most of my clubhead speed and ability to hit the sweet spot. I also lost my ability to practice/play a lot because it was just too painful. I played the MP68 until after my first back surgery. I couldn’t touch a club for 3 months, and when I first started back, I had to be very cautious of digging because the jarring of diggin in could reinjure my spine. I always had a steep aoa and took large healthy divots, so I needed something with a wider sole and more rounded leading edge to help prevent that. I didn’t, and still don’t, like the looks of most sgi (tried a set of AP1, but couldn’t get on with them), so I settled on i2 because they were a good middle ground to my eye.

[bigred90gt]

> @IHFN said:

> I've gone back and forth over the years and here's what I've found...

>

> Yes game improvement irons make make your misses a little bit better, but if you hit the ball way off on the toe, it doesn't matter what club it is, you are going to miss the green. Blades like cobra's have gotten a little bit more forgiving where you can just miss the sweet spot and still be fine. The biggest difference to me is that when I hit a blade with a good swing, it does exactly what I want flight wise and my distance control is excellent. When I hit game improvement irons with a good swing, the distance is questionable as well as the flight.

>

> So my good shots aren't as good with game improvements, but my bad shots may not be as bad.

>

> That means when I'm on with GI irons, my play isn't going to be as good and I'm not going to be close to the hole. When I'm bad with GI, it may be a little bit better, but I have enough confidence in my short game that I don't care if I'm 5 yards off the green or 10 or 15.

>

> Therefore, I'll continue to use blades.

 

I find with my i20, which I would consider GI (not sgi and not player cb, somewhere in between) that distance control with them is the most consistent part. My misses tend to be pushes and pulls, but distance is mostly spot on with them. With the players cb, distance was all over the place because I don’t hit the middle consistently enough, and I still push/pull them. Since I live in one of the flattest areas of the country, to present some kind of challenge on the courses, most designers use bunkers and/or water features short left and right on greens. That is a nightmare if you can’t be consistent with distance.

 

> @jwhite37 said:

> game improvement clubs don't work in my opinion. I just tend to hit offline shots further and cause more problems. blades or players cavities just make golf more enjoyable. My buddy plays SGIs and hits fairways and greens all day with a single stock shot. Its painful to watch, so boring. I flight it low and high, cuts, draws and mishits on my way to a 10 hcp. Thats what its all about.

 

lol, I cannot for the life of me agree with this logic. Fairways and greens all day is boring, but having to work the ball out of trouble all day and scrambling to a 10 handicap is “what it’s all about”? Give me FIR & GIR all day any day. I’ll take my chances for birdie on every hole over grinding for par.

 

 

[PappyVanWinkle53]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> I feel like I can answer this question accurately as I have a friend that lent me his set of New Level 623 blades with Modus 105 shafts. I play the New Level 1031 (the GI version of their lineup before the 1126 came along) with Dynamic Gold 105s. The lofts are the same, the shafts are virtually the same. I hit them on the range for a couple of sessions side by side and came to the following conclusion as a person who typically shoots 80-84 during a round.

>

> 1) There was no difference in the Pitching wedge. Both flew the same trajectory, had roughly the same apex, travelled the same distance, and had the same overall fade. Mishits fell about 5 yards short on the blades vs. the CB, flew lower, and had more pronounced tails compared to the GI irons.

>

> 2) The 8i I found flew about 4-6 yards longer on the GI club vs. the blade. The accuracy was roughly similar but there was a noticeable improvement in the dispersion of the GI vs. the blade when a mishit was introduced, both side to side and in carry distance.

>

> 3) At the 6i was where things really started to show. My own 6i was consistently carrying around the 165 mark while the blade had to be absolutely flushed to get the same out of it. The dispersion was significantly better on mishits on the 6i of the GI vs. blade to the point where maybe only 3-4/10 were struck well with the blade/landed where I had intended even on what felt like good swings vs. 6-7 with the GI iron. I stopped the test after this as I knew there was going to be little point in even pulling the 4i of the blade out of the blade.

>

> 4) Just for fun I also took out an old range club I have, an Epon AF303 with an s300 in it. Those in the know would likely agree with me that this is a pretty small iron overall akin to the 919 Tour/MP-18 SC, 718 CB, or P750, so definitely not a true blade but for sure small enough to past the player's CB poser test on here (thin top line, little offset, great feel, compact shape with nice blade length). The first two were flushed and landed almost on top of one another, the 3rd, 4th, 5th I should have just put the club away. Left-right-left-low, and it continued. I think the slightly weaker loft of this club helped at the onset but after that it's true nature stuck out, this is a ball striker's club and I am certainly not one.

>

> Overall, I think you should play what you think is going to help you play your best. However, the club snobbery that is rampant on here and other similar sites needs to stop as well. There are plenty of good examples of really darn good players using clubs on either spectrum. Brooks and Xander going the CB route while Thomas and McIlroy going the blade route. There are arguments on either side for sure. However, a lot of us should probably look at the LPGA or Champions Tour for our club advice due to similar swing speeds as the guys on the PGA Tour are just getting to almost immortal ball striking status of late. On the LPGA and Champions Tour it is not unheard of to play hybrids down to a 5 or even 6 iron and to play some irons with a little more help. I don't care how long you are, you can't say at a 3 handicap or worse that you are a better ball striker than even a sort-of mid tier LPGA pro. Look at this video from TXG fitting Na Yeon Choi who plays Apex Pros (snubbed by many here because of the thicker top line and offset) who also plays a 5 hybrid. If her dispersion was more than about 4 feet per iron I would be surprised.

>

>

 

My goodness.......she's dropping every shot right on the same pitch mark. Unbelievable.

[NoFancyUsername.]

Once upon a time, Pinocchio married Raggedy Ann...........

[zonadub]

To the OP... have used blades, game improvement and even, when in a deep slump, super g-i. Grew up on laminated woods and Sam Snead Blue Ridge irons. After college, got my first set of persimmon and Hogan Apex irons. Have gone thru pretty much every major OEM in my 50+ years, but no boutique manufacturers.

Currently gaming Callaway Apex and Titleist Metals. Backup set is 1988 Hogan Apex Red Lines. I am currently carrying about a 5 handicap. The range during my adult life has been anywhere from 3 to 14, but mostly in the 4 to 7 area.

When I was in the deepest depth of a slump, I tried Ping Raptures to try get back on track. The clubs did not make any difference nor help reduce my handicap. Actually got back on track with Callaway X-Forged, several lessons and lots of range time.

While the game improvement characteristics of the Cally Apex puts me on the green more often, I find it is easier to scramble with the Hogans from green side when I miss the green. The result is that my scores, and therefore my handicap, does not change significantly whether I am using blades or game improvement clubs. The reason I use the Callys is that, at 64 years old, I have lost a lot of distance and the ego drives me to use modern lofts to offset the difference, so I can still use the same clubs from the old distances that I have been accustomed to since high school.

As many previous responses have indicated, short game practice, both chipping and putting, is the real ticket to lower scores.

[bigbore56]

I switched from Callaway Rogue Pro irons to Ping I500’s mid year, and dropped handicap from a 15 to a 10. Hit a lot more greens with straight and high trajectory!

[Tree Levino]

That’s kind of a lateral change not going from a blade to game improvement

[bladehunter]

Exactly my findings.

 

I did a whole winter stint with i500 and you describe exactly what I found. More distance. But very much the same poor play from any rough , and zero shortgame feel with any wedge or 8-9 iron. The issue is the wide sole and blunt leading edge. Everything is a trade off. If it’s anti dig , it’s also going to get hung up in the rough. Can’t cut one way and not cut another . The real fix is to fix the swing.

 

if You’re distance challenged and or a digger from hades it makes sense as you arent trading good for bad. But if you have a solid strike and shortgame , it does not make sense to trade distance for your feel and scrambling ability.

 

I keep waiting for them to release a spring faced club with a Narrow sole and sharp leading edge .... and no not like the 760. A real sharp leading edge. That would be the real ticket .

[braincramp52]

I have a hard time getting those 50 yard shots off tight lies anywhere close to the hole with my 410's. Considering that I rarely play a course over 6000 yards anymore distance irons are overrated in my case.

[Nessism]

I played blades and small CB's for decades but since going full on GI I'll never go back. In fact, my first time on the range with a set of Ping G10's, coming from a mixed blade/CB set, was my equipment epiphany moment since I was just giddy at how easy the large shovels were to hit. My handicap has ranged from about 6-10 over the years, including a lifetime of mediocre putting, so it's not like I'm a total iron hack either.

As far as spring face irons being "jumpy" on short touch shots, it's not the faces that are causing the issue. Even a thin spring face is not thin enough to flex with slow speed impact swings thus they don't add anything to the strike. I've always used two blade type wedges with my shovels, a 55 and 60, which provide more versatility around the greens for those true touch shots. This choice is not predicated on the club face though.

I'll admit that a larger headed club won't go through the rough as easily as a small players club. That's their main compromise in my opinion. As for the leading edge sharpness and what have you, I greatly prefer a dull leading edge and lots of bounce, aka Ping style, and just hate a sharp leading edge and narrow sole. There is a reason why pretty much every iron on the market these days other than a few blade sets have a cambered sole. They have better playability for most all players. The strike occurs with a downward angle of attack and a forgiving sole helps when the strike is a little behind the ball. Pickers should have no problem with such a sole because the sole isn't touching the ground anyway.

[tercoidegw]

Couldn't agree more. The only problem with a blade is that the club is designed to hit the ball at certain speed, so it will not give a slow swing player a decent ballfligth.

[NRJyzr]

 

I don't think you can say that across the board. It's just as with any other situation, the fit to the player's game with shaft and swing. Blades can have varying CG, trajectory, and spin production, just as all other irons do.

[Guest]

Do you know I solve this whole line of thinking?

[braincramp52]

Playing Wilson blades now after several years of G series Pings. My handicap is the lowest its ever been but I can't credit it all to the irons. I will say though at 68 years old I have no issues with ball flight and I'm not a big strong guy

[tercoidegw]

but you are smart enough to play them up to 6 iron ;)

[braincramp52]

Yea, I've never been good with longer irons.