Wedge/bounce discussion

[Pulledabill]

Currently gaming a set 47 degree pw, 51 low bounce Vokey, 54 (08) Vokey, and a 60 (12) Vokey.  I've been playing some tournies and nice courses where the greenside turf is cut nice and tight and  I feel that my 58 (12) is costing me strokes.  Too much bounce and not enough loft.  I say that as it is tougher to pick the ball clean off the tight lie with high bounce and the 58 needs more loft.  I use my 58 greenside and out of the sand. 

I think I should've went 54 (12) and 60 (08) and should be using the 54 out of the sand and in deeper lies.    I also think my 51 should have more bounce at times.  In Oregon the turf is on the soft side most of the year but will go hard eventually.  I am a mid single digit hdcp and a digger. 

 

Thoughts? 

[No5somes]

I agree with 12 & 8 or even 10 & 6 or 12 & 6. However, when playing a course w/ tight lies or on that Southern sticky grass stuff, I just rotate the face slightly (toe further from ball than heal), not adding loft, so that the rear bounce edge doesn't enter the turf squarely & grab as much. Not the same as low bounce, but it is effective. You could also tilt shaft slightly toward target & reduce the bounce, in a pinch.

[cardoustie]

Normally you see the 55 with more bounce and the 60 with less

you can also experiment with grinds to add versatility ... ie Ping wrx. .... blunted leading edge, trail edge relief, heel relief

[Pulledabill]

Yea, thats where I messed uo when I bought them.

[b.mattay]

I always have found high bounce makes tight lies easier. If you cant hit it fat, it makes it hard to hit it thin.

[Pulledabill]

You arent the 1st person Ive heard say that.

[ChipNRun]

If you stay in the Vokey house, here are options for the 58* and 60* to lower bounce and foster versatility. Caution, L-grind lobs only have 4* of bounce.

If you want to go outside Vokey, consider Callaway lobs with C-grind or more severe X-grind.

 

[Righty to Lefty]

I can't think of one situation where bounce isn't your friend aside of hitting a ball off the cart path. The more the better is what I have found. Shoot I play C3i wedges and I would bet that it has 30 ish degrees a bounce with the face open and it is fantastic on all course conditions and I have no versatility issues whatsoever. Sure the leading edge gets up in the air quickly if you open it on a hard surface, but bounce isn't needed on a hard surface so play the shot with a square club face. However even with the face open in the intermediate cut of rough around a green you can open the face and the leading will not be as high up in the air because the leading edge can sit lower to the ground because the bounce will sit down into the turf but it won't dig into it. Bounce is your friend in all but the most extreme hard pan lies. In my opinion there are way more situations where you will have too little bounce available than there are situations where you will have too much.

I just shake my head when people say they can't play a C3i, Cleveland Smart Sole, or Cally Sure Out because they are "cheater wedges!" I just laugh because if they are cheater wedges for a beginner golfer then what are they in the hands of a skilled golfer. Absolute weapons is what they are. One of my friends who I converted is a low single digit handicap and will often describe to me how he " smart soled em" when he holes out a pitch or chip shot !! Bounce is good...the more the better!!

[BB28403]

I dislike bounce myself. Give me a butter knife plz.

around the greens you can work low bounce fast and create that high spin shot.

ive been between Rtx 4 ultra low bounce 60

and Callaway MD4 60 w 8 bounce. And they are both really close to one another, just the MD4?is performing a bit better hitting the landing spots and rolling to the cup.

that said I believe in traditional wedge gapping. 46,52,56,60. Know your distances and swing away .

my 56 and 52 are some older wedges , a good bit of bounce on those to deal with turf interaction. I tried a 60 with a good bit of bounce and it just had too much for our NC tight lies around the green.

[MountainGoat]

I'd like to comment, but this new editor is so slow that it's hardly worth the effort. Short version -- bounce important; amount depends on conditions and technique.

 

[Ger21]

For my 60, I find that I prefer 6°, as it's much more versatile around the green. Higher bounce makes it a lot easier to hit longer or full shots, but makes it a lot tougher to hit flop shots.

[Z1ggy16]

I used to think it was purely a high bounce = soft course, low bounce = tight/firm but I feel like this is like the same anecdote that OEMs give when it comes to low launch shaft and high launch shafts. People are actually starting to research the real effects of bounce on strike location, launch, etc and many times the higher bounce option lowers the strike point just a bit which helps to increase spin and lower launch. With too low of a bounce, you slide under the ball a little bit too much and contact gets high on the face.

 

If you feel like the ball is coming out too low and you need more height, do as you suggest and get some more static loft.

[Righty to Lefty]

I still can't think of a situation where I want my wedge to dig into the turf. I think that calling it "bounce" has lead to a negative connotation. It should be called "glide" as the club doesn't actually bounce off the turf. If the lie is really tight then hit the shot with a square face and keep it moving. The average person hits down on a wedge 8 to 14 degrees so you would need at least that much bounce for the club to not be a digging machine. I am always blown away when I see a tour Pro rip up a foot long divot on a 40 yard wedge shot. That shouldn't happen if the wedge has the correct amount of bounce.

[FairwayFred]

You should figure out what sole configuration works for your natural swing and get 2 wedges that fit and are similar. In all the wedge fittings I've done that's the biggest mistake people make. They get 2 different bounce/configuration wedges and end up with one wedge they really like and one they don't. Do not make that mistake. Get 2 wedges that fit you so you like them both.

[FairwayFred]

Higher bounce lob wedge is great for someone that needs higher bounce. What your suggesting is the biggest mistake amateurs make when selecting wedges. Everyone has a natural move through the ball and you need to fit wedges based on that. The conditions question is only emphasized by OEMs that offer more than one sole but don't do any fitting at the point of purchase. If you need higher bounce in your irons and higher bounce on your other wedges you need higher bounce on your lob wedge. If you want versatility and like to hit flop shots and open the face find a higher bounce wedge with aggressive heel and toe relief and not too wide a sole so the leading edge does not come up off the ground too much when opened.

[BIG STU]

And just to let you know Ari--- The Scratch JLM/EGG was one of the best grinds ever. When I got that wedge it was half worn out and I finished it off but I have duplicated that grind on a couple of 588s

[FairwayFred]

I think just about everyone is able to understand bounce etc but you would be surprised how many players regardless of talent level do not. I've fit plenty of top level players and pros that do not understand what bounce is, what it does and what they need. In pretty much no situation did I fit someone into one high and one low bounce wedge. That's just not a good idea if you want 2 wedges that fit you. Adding to the confusion, basically zero oem wedges actually have the bounce angle that they state so unless you are really educated it's hard to find what works best for you but I'd virtually guarantee one high and one low bounce wedge is not the way to go. As for your example for your waste areas, I'd have to see the lies your talking about to really comment and also asses the frequency which you'd find that type of lie. I do know that I'm a high bounce guy and when I go play links golf on super firm turf which is alot these days I still use my high bounce wedges and they work great.

[Sean2]

Conventional wisdom says low bounce for firm, dry conditions, higher bounce for soft conditions. I don’t have the money to spend on different wedges for different conditions. In addition. Titleist recommends replacing wedges every 75 rounds. I average 175 official rounds annually. Doing what is recommended could get expensive.

[FairwayFred]

What is the name of the course you play at?

[Sean2]

Not really: $205 a month for unlimited golf, grass driving and pitching ranges, two practice greens, a 9 hole short course, heated bays with TopTracer, gym, no food or drink minimum.

[Sean2]

ps: forgot the bunker complex

[FairwayFred]

Don't pick your wedges based on conditions. Huge mistake. Think of it this way, if your a sweeper with zero to minimal ground contact why does it matter what the ground is like? If your a digger think of the firmest course you have ever played. Did the firm turf prevent you from taking divots? Fit to your angle of attack. Steeper get more bounce. Shallow get less bounce.

[FairwayFred]

Oh no worries there I was trying to better understand the situation with the waste areas and exactly what you meant. I get it now I've played The Ocean Course and I now realize what you mean. Yes those areas would be harder to hit a high bounce wedge off. Almost like a non paved cart path. Every rule has an exception and your situation is as close to that as I've found. At that stage it's a question if that one specific shot/lie s worthy of its own club and I could see the answer being yes if your on them enough.

[Pulledabill]

As the OP I got myself in to this struggle by not doing my homework before I bought. My highest bounce is on a 58 when I feel my 54 should of had it. I trusted the fitter.

Im steep but also a decent striker. Yesterday I borrowed a low bounce 60. Loved extra loft but not the low bounce.

Its those dang delicate super tight lies greenside to quick greenss that my high bounce 58 gives me fits and costs me strokes. Maybe I need to get flatter...maybe an 8i in this case...maybe mental..maybe overthinking it..?

 

Preowned Callaway is having a sale so Im going to find a Vokey in 60 (08) inthe same grind as my current 58 and go from there.

[Sean2]

I feel very fortunate to have access to a facility like this.

[FairwayFred]

I think alot of peoples development, especially their short game can be traced back to where they learned to play or a club they had etc.

I actually have a similar story I grew up playing an old Donald Ross course that had never been worked on by anyone since DR left which was so much a point of pride that back then they still had dirt bunkers because that's how it was when Ross designed it. I was lost in normal sand bunkers back then too! Completely different shot.

[GrandmasterJ]

I recently just switched from SM6 50 8 Degree F grind, 54 10 Degree S grind, and 58 12 Degree K grind to RTX 4 50 mid sole 10 degree, 54 mid sole 10 degree, and 58 full sole 9 degree. My question is would it be a better option to go 58 mid sole 9 degree instead of the full sole? The courses I play at are slight to moderately firm and the same goes for the traps. I mainly use my 58 out of traps but coming from the 58 K grind with the high bounce. I have a steep attack angle and take very large divots. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[Righty to Lefty]

Just because you didn't take a divot doesn't mean your angle of attack was shallow...it means your low point of your swing wasn't deep into the ground and that is very different. The design build of a golf club means that there will be a natural amount of shaft lean on all shots ( The butt end of the club on a wedge is in front of the club face whereas a driver the butt end of the club is inline with the face.) Just because you didn't take a divot does not mean that you had a zero angle of attack and this is because your low point still must be in front of the ball. It means that your low point was at ground level, you still hit down on the shot...you just had good low point control. If you visualize the shot in 3 dimensions, low point should should be a certain point in front of the ball, but also a certain depth into the ground. A " picker" of the ball isn't necessarily picking it and they may be going at the ball very aggressively actually, but their low point is not deep into the turf so they " appear" shallow when actually they are still hitting down on the ball in regards to AoA, and just as much as someone who takes a deep divot in most cases.

That being said...not having at least the amount of bounce on the club in relation to how much you hit down on it, is a recipe for disaster because many short game shots require you to hit slightly behind the ball and if you do not have at least as much bounce as your AoA then your wedge will immediately dig. A wedge with bounce less than your AoA is basically worthless. Srixon's v sole has 20 degrees of leading edge bounce and that is a big deal as the club will be much more forgiving on mistrikes. The purpose of bounce is to preserve speed on shots that strike the ground prior to the ball and minimize loss of energy to the turf so bounce is a good thing and a high bounce wedge is much more versatile than you think. There almost no situation where a low bounce wedge has an advantage over a high bounce wedge.

[GrandmasterJ]

Is there really any difference between the rtx 4 58 full and mid sole realistically?

[Righty to Lefty]

Sole width shallows the club a little because it reduces how quickly the club can exit the turf but your best bet is to get on Trackman or something similar and find out your angle of attack on a stock square faced shot and find wedges with at least that amount of bounce and test them out to see if you need more.

What I find is that when you are testing something don't be afraid to be uncomfortable. Fitters get away with this because they will push you towards what everyone else plays. For example swing weight... everyone pushes D2 ish swing weight for some reason and all companies tend to fall into the same categories in regards to their specs. Have you ever hit a C2 or E2 swingweight? 99% of golfers haven't and this robs them of a critical fitting parameter because swing weight is on of the main factors that makes the golfer aware of the club moving around them during the swing. We are all built very different in regards to strength yet all of the clubs are built to mostly the same spec and this is a disservice to the customer in my opinion. Ask any OEM to provide your "custom fit" clubs in a E2 swing weight and you not going to get a good answer from them I assure you.

Now that being said and back to the topic once you have found out your angle of attack with your wedges then I would go and test extreme wedges in both directions of the spectrum. If your AoA is say 10 down with your wedge then test one with 4 degrees of bounce and one with 20 or more and you will find your answer to what you need and that is what matters. You finding the answer for your game will breed confidence in your gear when you pull it out of the bag.

My main guide would be that you want your wedge to dig into the turf as little as possible, if at all, on your full shots from average lies. Learn the difference between feeling the club skid along the turf and digging into the turf as wedges should skid along the turf.