Classic Heads/Modern Shafts

[kaboboom]

I haven't put shafts in a set of heads in years so I'm pretty out of touch. On my local CL, I see what looks like a lightly played set of FC4000s with PT4 shafts. I believe these are very flexy shafts...maybe women's. I have a set of FC4000s with MT19 shafts which I believe are stiff and one or one half inches over...there's a thread deep in here somewhere that describes Mac shaft ID based on these markings. On another CL site I found a set of pulls...KBS C-Taper Lite/Stiff 0.355 taper. Seems to me like they might work together, but maybe the heads are too heavy for lite shafts. Just been a long time for me with respect to club building...I thought taper tips had gone the way of wooden heads. Does anyone want to offer their opinion on my daydream before I cough up a couple hundred bucks to make a nice looking, unplayable set of irons? Thanks.

[ChronicSlicer]

Here's an affordable shaft http://www.fstshafts.com/ These guys make the shafts for KBS actually. You could buy a couple single shafts of different flex or weight and figure out what works best. Just a thought..

[NRJyzr]

 

Aren't most FST shafts parallel? I would think it near certain a set of FC4000s would be .355 taper....

[Bigarch]

The FST's are pretty nice shafts but yes they do only come in parallel .370. I really wish everyone would go to a .370 parallel tip. I bought reamers last year and decided that everything I intend to play gets reshafted with .370's from now on.

[Fellaheen51]

@kaboboom. You mentioned that you already have a set of FC4000 MT19 (stiff shafts, +.5"). Have you played them? Hit a golf ball with one? I had a set awhile back, and they were without doubt one of the hardest clubs to try and execute the task of striking a golf ball. They hurt! (FWIW, they have a Maltby MPF rating of -341. If one takes any credence in the numbers.) The 6 iron head weight is listed as 264 g. On the heavier side compared with more modernist weights. The original shafts were heavy as well. Resulting in a lot of heft while swinging the club.
The shafts are pinned and would have to be removed in order to perform a reshaft. Would agree with NRJ, likely .355. Boring out the forged hosel would not be that difficult with a .370 reamer. You're only dealing with the bottom .25" or so. Did it on a set of Hogan Apex II's with a cordless drill, a reamer and some WD40. Using the hosel bore as a "guide", checking the depth measurements as I proceeded.
Many, if not most new OEM clubs use .355 taper tip shafts. One could get geeky about constant weight (.355) vs. descending weight (.370) preferences, but that's for the Tech section. There could be issues with enhanced shaft droop combining a heavy head with a LW shaft. Would surmise a stout tip is going to be required to handle that much head weight. If you decide to proceed, would do only one iron and play it for awhile. Determine whether it's worthwhile for reshafting the entire set. L/T playability cannot be determined on the quick.
The question becomes how much time and expense does one want to spend in reshafting a set of classic irons? Would the amount of play warrant the exercise? Only you can answer that question. IMHO, one really needs to enjoy playing a set of classic irons to perform a reshaft. In my classic irons journey, only two have passed the evaluation that they may indeed see some measure of regular use. Both not nearly as old as the FC4000's. Another factor that may or may not be important. You will in all likelihood significantly reduce any resale value by so doing. A "collector" of irons this old wants originality.
Perhaps @BIG STU will stop by and offer his guidance. The resident Mac expert and master club tinkerer extraordinaire. Has the infamous MacHogan irons, where he installed Hogan Apex 2 shafts in Mac heads. (don't remember which model).

[BIG STU]

I agree on that. It used to be against my religion so to speak to ream out a head especially a Macgregor one. My buddy who is a master club builder and Miura dealer changed my way of thinking on that some time ago. He showed me where there were many different tuning options with a .370 versus a .355 and there are more shafts available especially 370 ones. So yep I will ream one out in a NY minute now with no reservations at all. And ye I will agree the FST 90s are a great bang for the buck and readily available

[BIG STU]

On the Machogans they are the ones listed in my signature. On the lighter modern shafts in old clubs you may have to experiment as far as tipping to see what may work for you. Pull outs can be tricky too. Shafts react differently especially on the tip end with different heads. Good example like you stated those FC heads are heavy. Another thing on the older Pro Pel shafts look at one when you pull it and you will see the wall is thicker than modern shafts. That is where the weight and flex come from. We have more refined metal processes these days and the blends or properties of the steel itself are different than days gone by and so they are able to offer lighter and in some cases stiffer shafts. Yep I am debating on putting a set of FST 90s I have laying around in either my CFs or my 57 Diamondbacks. LOL I got a kick one night when someone on another site mentioned the MPF factor of FC-4000s. At the time my back was ok and I had no problem at all hitting mine. One guy smartly remarked I must be a better ball striker than Tiger Woods if I could hit those. I told him naah I am not a ball striker never considered myself to be one but it was easy for me because I had played the one set on and off since I was around 15 years old or so. I can still hit the heavy stiff FCs but not for many shots. For me I say if it is a Macgregor blade I can hit it with one exception the split soles. since I hit a trap cut I can dig to China with those things

[BIG STU]

Yep you are correct

[NRJyzr]

 

The only real problem I've got with 370 shafts has to do with the Dynamic/DG. The tip section on the tapers is considerably stiffer, due to how it continues to taper to .395 or so at the bottom of the first step.

Of course, if you're not a Dynamic user, it doesn't matter, LOL. And, there are other 370 options that can possibly get you where you might wish to be with the DG's.

[kaboboom]

Thanks all for the insights. Let me say I love playing my FC4000s (MT19) and I'm a picker, so the lack of bounce, etc...the things Maltby "marks down" don't bother at all. I simply love the heads. The pull outs I am looking at are taper tip, 0.355, so my assumption is no boring, sanding, or shimming needed, and I've removed pins before...just got the find the smaller end to tap. My biggest concern is mismatching head weights and shaft weights. A friend tells me heavier shafts would be a better match, but I didn't really know, relatively, how heavy these Mac heads are...they don't have much "muscle"...must be a lot in the hosel. Thanks again.

[deejaid]

I have a set of near mint FC4000 irons with the black ceramic face. Beautiful set of irons and like you, being a picker/sweeper that’s played similar era clubs since I started playing, I don’t find them hard to play.

 

Now, you are right, the FC4000 PT4 model would be a woman’s club. Because they are woman’s flex the shafts are probably lighter than Pro Pel 1’s or Pro Pel 2’s used in the men’s clubs. Perhaps that necessitated lighter weight heads as well to keep a proper swing weight? So maybe a modern, lighter shaft would be a perfect fit with the PT4 heads.

 

I’d think the best way to go about it would be to buy the PT4’s, pull the heads, and find out their weights before deciding on the shafts. I understand there is a set of shafts local but if they don’t work you’d be better off waiting for a deal to come along here in the classified BST or on eBay.

[raggal62]

You mentioned a set of FC4000 PT4 with #4 shafts that I assume you are thinking of buying. I wonder since they are essentially ladies clubs that the head weight is lower? Maybe Stu would know. The other question I have is the hosel bore diameter on the PT4's. Just curious if the tip diameter is smaller than .355"? Some manufacturers used .340" in ladies irons during that era. Not sure that holds true for Pro Pel.

[kaboboom]

The last 2 comments are spot on. The cost of the irons is $25, but...I can inspect the ceramic faces first hand vs. EBay. That's key, and they look nice in the picture. Taking out the shafts is no problem, and I know I can always buy new TT DGs locally...last time I did, they were $8 a shaft, I think. Therefore, for $35, I can make a 5 or 7 iron, and try it out. But, I wonder(ed) if there is some "standard" ratio of club head weight to shaft weight. Maybe too deep for here, and certainly too deep for me, but a super clean set of ceramic faced MACs...it might be worth the "chase". The KBS pulls would be my little attempt to get out of the 60s for about the same cost provided lengths and grips matched up sufficiently. Thanks again.

[BIG STU]

What I do with DGs for me now is soft step them a bit and throw a little weight down low. Back in the day though that stiff bottom end did not bother me one bit. But then again I have not built anything for me with DGs in them for several years now.

[BIG STU]

I have never seen a set of # 4 Pro Pels in my life. But knowing how they built clubs back in the day I would say the head weights would be the same. But to be honest I would guess on that

[BIG STU]

They have more muscle weight wise than it appears and also I speculate again that the ceramic coating may add some weight too---- those are some of the few ever Irons I did not have to add lead tape too. I think a lot of the weight may be due to a dense metal being used

[NRJyzr]

 

I should have been more clear, I actually like the stiffer tip. The softer tip of the 370 DG bothers me a bit in the shorter irons. Or so I believe, LOL.

[baloo]

You can mix old heads and new shafts. I put some S300s HS 1x into a set of Hogan PC7 heads a few years back and it worked really well. You'll have to figure out desired lengths and SWs and build accordingly.

[mocokid]

Try a graphite .370 shaft and sand it down to .355, that's what I do.

[kaboboom]

Again, thanks to all for the insights. As for putting modern graphite shafts in older heads, I do recall advice here to "bevel" (countersink) the hosel to prevent the otherwise square edge from cutting into the graphite at that stress point. I'm not sure yet for myself that I would prefer graphite over modern steel/alloy shafts. However, as I explore options, and I'm focused on "pulls" because of cost, I wonder if classic sets originally fitted with aluminum shafts would be preferred to harvest the heads from given what I believe is a larger diameter. I'll need to do some more research, but I have a set of nearly pristine Hogan Bounce Sole 1+s with lummy shafts in mind. I don't really mind playing them "as is", but I could see how re-shafting these to modern could greatly improve their performance.

[raggal62]

If you're Hogans have the True Temper aluminum shafts they should be .395".

 

[kaboboom]

Thanks...yup, TT Rockets.

[BIG STU]

I know exactly where you are coming from on that because I like my 56 and 60 a little stiffer on the tip end. Actually I was like that with the 588s . Now honestly the Mizuno T-10 has the shaft I found in it and I love it and the Ping Zing has what ever came in it and it is fine. In fact the Zuno is one of the few wedges outside of 50s Macgregors that I did not add lead tape to

[ChronicSlicer]

Just started the process of reshafting my Mac TA 985T's with some FST 115's. I just pulled the 2 iron head, I noticed the hosel looked deeper than my length from ferrule to end of shaft. The hosel depth is 2 1/8, my end of shaft to ferrule is 1 3/4, so the shaft was never bottomed out in the hosel. Theres a 3/8 gap of dead space. Anyone else come across this before?

 

This leads me to the question of after reaming the hosel, should I bury the shaft the whole way down, if so will this have any effect on shaft flex once I tip trim to specs and cut to overall length?

[ALIF]

I have the same irons. The shaft insertion depth should be 1 1/4 inches. I would not insert it deeper than that unless you want the shaft to play stiffer.

[NixLix26]

This thread is like a meeting on the Big bang theory with knowledge. Way out of my league. I was going to say I play a 905R with the new V2 shaft. I am the dumb Penny character. keep it up guys play well

[ChronicSlicer]

At an 1 1/4" deep the shaft is barely passing the hosel pin hole on the longer irons.( At least mine, each iron is different ) I was thinking 1 1/2, and maybe leaving an extra 1/8" or 3/16" on the tip trim specs. Thoughts?

[raggal62]

Something to consider is the bottom of bore to ground measurement (BBGM). A Google search will explain it better than I can but one thing that seems to be common is modern irons have a shorter BBGM than classic irons. This will be a determining factor when choosing how much to tip trim the parallel FST shafts you are using to achieve the desired flex.

[kaboboom]

A bit of an apology since I started this thread knowing I didn't know enough about modern shafts. The last few informed posts suggest I reframe my original query in a new manner as follows.

I have older iron sets that I'd like to re-shaft with modern shafts of any composition. From what I have now gleaned here, the old heads are likely heavier, taper tip, and "expect" a longer shaft tip length to be inserted into the hosel. (yes, lot's of simplification). And now an assertion to throw rocks at:

I should bore the hosels to accept parallel shafts.Because the new, modern shafts will be set deeper into the hosels, I should target softer shafts (especially if they are pulls), not trim the tips per se...just expect them to play stifferI should bevel/countersink the hosel if the new shafts are not steelI realize this simplification is a significant downgrade from the more in-depth technical discussion above, but it's kind of a "bird in the hand" thing...I want to do what the heads expect, and shop for the shafts that might allow that.

Chuck away, but understand, when you've got over a dozen sets of old irons, it's OK to to take some risks that occupy your time provided they are not a huge financial fiasco.

[ALIF]

Do not bore out the hosels to except parallel tipped shafts!!!! All the modern irons I have have a shaft insertion depth of 1 1/4 inches. You are most likely regrets boring the hosels. I also sent you a PM.